Thursday, February 22, 2018

701: A Clash of Cultures...

We put all our efforts in getting hold on our Self in this project. We want to know what it means to be an individual, a Self, a unique and authentic being.
I have come to one observation at least. What we call our Self is not a stable and unchanging state of being, but an evolving process through time.
A second observation is, that, though we are convinced that this or that is really part of my true Self, someone else could say to me:
"Herman, please, stop are not yourself. That is not you....take a break." And that's what friends are for :-)
The quintessence in the whole story is individualism: the claim that every human organism is a unique individual person. 
However, though we may be individuals, we all live together on this planet. And that is where it all starts: how can we protect our authenticity and uniqueness in the crowd?
The interesting thing here is, that this individualism and being an authentic Self is quite theoretical, because homo sapiens is just a social animal and lives in groups.
Yet we have this longing for being an authentic individual. Thence the question: how can we organize this?
The most fascinating to observe today is that a political world power, the United States in this case, has become an interesting example of attempts to answer this question
In the previous lecture we got acquainted with the distinction between negative and positive freedom.
This dichotomy, used by Isaiah Berlin in 1958, was already described by Erich Fromm, the Frankfurt-born psychoanalyst, in 1941 in his book "Escape from Freedom".
Fromm distinguishes between 'freedom from' (negative freedom) and 'freedom to' (positive freedom). 
The former refers to emancipation from restrictions such as social conventions placed on individuals by other people or institutions. 
This is the kind of freedom typified by the existentialism of Sartre, and has often been fought for historically, 
but according to Fromm, on its own it can be a destructive force unless accompanied by a creative element, 
'freedom to' the use of freedom to employ spontaneously the total integrated personality in creative acts.
Fromm examines democracy and freedom. Modern democracy and the industrialised nation are models he praises, 
but it is stressed, that the kind of external freedom provided by this kind of society can never be utilised to the full without an equivalent inner freedom. 
Fromm suggests that though we are free from totalitarian influence of any sorts in this kind of society, we are still dominated by the advice of experts and the influence of advertising. 
The way to become free as an individual is to be spontaneous in our self-expression and in the way we behave. 
This is crystallised in his existential statement "there is only one meaning of life: the act of living it". Fromm counters suggestions that this might lead to social chaos 
by claiming that being truly in touch with our humanity is to be truly in touch with the needs of those with whom we share the world.
In politics this "truly in touch with the needs of those with whom we share the world" translates into the dichotomy: Night-watchman State versus Wellfare State.
In the US it translates into Republicans versus Democrates....but from my perspective, there it has become a Clash of Cultures
Next lecture we'll elaborate on this dichotomy: Night-watchman State versus Welfare State and how to be yourself.
Thank you for your attention again...^_^

The Discussion

[13:22] herman Bergson: Take your time to think  this over :-)
[13:23] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well what can I say, freedom is important
[13:24] herman Bergson: but it is fredom FROM and/or freedom to....
[13:25] Ciska Riverstone: or outer versus inner one
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:25] herman Bergson: freedom from any coercion....that is what John Stuart MIll put forward as liberal freedom
[13:25] CB Axel: Are we "dominated by the advice of experts"? I like hearing what experts have to say. It's better than listening to uninformed jerks on Facebook.
[13:26] herman Bergson: I agree CB...
[13:26] CB Axel: Also, my freedom from fear is being affected by other people's freedom to carry guns.
[13:27] herman Bergson: BEsides Faceboook can never really be a source of reliable information
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true
[13:27] CB Axel: And the people who want to carry guns see that as a way to have their own freedom from fear.
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): both of those
[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i like to listen experts and then I can deside by myself what to do
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): everyone shoots everyone = everyone dead, noone to have any freedon anymore
[13:27] herman Bergson: That CB, is a typical American problem....
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): insane
[13:28] CB Axel: Facebook can be a source of reliable information, but that information, like that of any source, needs to be verified.
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): also true
[13:28] herman Bergson: Not a single European country (where most Amercans came from) allows citizens to posses guns
[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i even have never seen a gun
[13:28] Dien (djdien.bailey) is offline.
[13:28] herman Bergson: I am really flabbergasted by this weapon obsession by Americans
[13:29] CB Axel: If someone puts up a post on FB saying that CB Axel has died, I'm going to check at least one more source to verify that information.
[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): only in a museum..a very old one
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true, i would indeed not feel safe if everyone was prepared to shoot me at anytime
[13:29] CB Axel: I agree, Bejiita.
[13:29] herman Bergson: Just the thought that private people around me are carrying absurd
[13:30] CB Axel: But I think the people who think guns are necessary believe that there is a threat around every corner.
[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): do young Americans think that life is a computergame?
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i have used guns a lot though, done a lot of target practice with one at work who is a hunter
[13:30] Ciska Riverstone whispers: did you know the irony bout that?
[13:30] roos Gartner is offline.
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): good coordination training and making a little noise is fun sometimes
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:30] CB Axel: They believe the hype the media tells them that crime is everywhere.
[13:31] Ciska Riverstone whispers: (just read that since trump is president the gun sale dropped 30 % - with remington going bankrupped now)
[13:31] CB Axel: I can understand the fun of target practice, but the guns should be kept at the target range and not carried everywhere, imo.
[13:31] herman Bergson: Yes indeed Ciska....
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i thought the opposite would be true since he is basically insane
[13:31] herman Bergson: no no Bejiita....
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): even if i have actually heard a FEW good things from him
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): note a few, not many
[13:32] herman Bergson: The explanation is that under Trump there won't come restrictive laws on weapn possession
[13:32] CB Axel: That's right, Ciska. Gun sales go up with Democrats have the White House and Congress because people are convinced that the Dems will try to restrict gun sales.
[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): who can deside if you going to live or die?
[13:32] CB Axel: In the US, apparently, anyone can.
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so people bunker guns?
[13:33] herman Bergson: the gun, trigger
[13:33] Ciska Riverstone: yes - but there  u can see the psychology of all of that is really nuts.
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and now they feel they done need to
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): dont
[13:33] herman Bergson: The AMerican Dresm...How to be your true self...Get a gun
[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): so freedom doens't exsist in the US
[13:34] herman Bergson: dream
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and shoot everyone on sight
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sigh
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least some seem to think that
[13:34] herman Bergson: not necessarily Bejiita...:-)
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): violence feeds violence
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): = big problem
[13:35] Second Life: Beertje Beaumont gave you Drugs_Cypress Hill Joint (animated Joint).
[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): shall we ever be free?
[13:36] CB Axel: The news media lead us to believe that there is crime everywhere, but when I ask people I know if they've or anyone they know personally has ever been a victim of violent crime they can't think of any. Yet, they're convinced that they need to walk around with concealed weapons.
[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we are even a prisoner of our own bodies
[13:36] herman Bergson: Did you ever watch TV CB...:-)
[13:37] herman Bergson: Dozens of Crime series...
[13:37] herman Bergson: All US made
[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hmm yes, too many
[13:37] CB Axel: Even when I had a TV, I rarely watched those shows. I prefer comedies. °͜°
[13:37] herman Bergson: I am watching a series which is totally the moment
[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i never watch them
[13:38] CB Axel: What show is that, Herman?
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[13:38] herman Bergson: I watch  to be amazed again and again about how bizar it is....
[13:38] herman Bergson: it is called Criminal MInds....
[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): there is always a nerdin the show that knows it all
[13:38] herman Bergson: The series has 227 episodes !!!!!
[13:38] CB Axel: I never watched that.
[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): wow, a lot to watch Herman
[13:39] herman Bergson: and every episode is about how to catch a serial killer...
[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: have some fun herman and switch to Murdoch Mysteries ;)
[13:39] herman Bergson: conclusion is...the US is infested with serial killers
[13:40] CB Axel: I do listen to a podcast about true crime. It's interesting, and has taught me to stay away from weirdos.
[13:40] herman Bergson: If you look at the underlying American....
[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): don't forget the violent computergames
[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): averyone shoots everyone
[13:41] herman Bergson: Because one of your postings on FB , CB, I saw a video...
[13:41] CB Axel: Which posting was that?
[13:41] herman Bergson: a woman in court....had  ignored a red stopping light....
[13:42] herman Bergson: judge asked her 9 year old daughter...why...
[13:42] herman Bergson: the kid said....there was a man at the sidewalk and my mom didnt dare to stop...
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): because was afraid he would shoot them?
[13:43] herman Bergson: yes or open the door of the car and so on...
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): crazy
[13:44] CB Axel: Those things do happen, but not as often as people here think they do.
[13:44] herman Bergson: I never would get the idea that anyone here ever would do that
[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: it seems to totally depend...
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): seems they cant separate fiction from reality
[13:45] CB Axel: I had a gym bag stolen from the front seat of my car while I was stopped at a light, but having a gun on me wouldn't have prevented that. The gun probably would have been stolen, too.
[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: a friend of mine in here  was in shock some weeks ago because the police came to arrest her co-worker
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): tv and games are not reality, well unless they are based on actual facts and not made up fantasy things like most are
[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: he had shot his wife and  went to work for three more days as if nothing had happend.
[13:45] CB Axel: Wow!
[13:45] herman Bergson: Really???
[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: she  could not grasp it
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): WOO GET NAKED!!!!!!
[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: yes
[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ohh
[13:45] CB Axel: Where did he get a gun?
[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: she wa totally in shock
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako) whispers: damn need to reprogram that one!
[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: seems he had one
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that sounds horrific
[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: she is in oregon
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): shudders
[13:46] CB Axel: Oh.
[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): you can buy a gun in Belgium
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): scary stuff
[13:46] herman Bergson: You mean it happened in the US, Ciska??
[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: but she is totally shaken now about how to trust
[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: yes
[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: a friend in here
[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: know her for years
[13:47] CB Axel: People like to point out that Chicago has a high murder rate, but Illinois (the state Chicago is in) has rather strict gun laws. They use that as proof that gun laws don't work.
[13:47] CB Axel: What they don't bother to look into is that the gun laws in neighboring states are much less strict.
[13:47] herman Bergson: is utter nonsense that private persons should have guns...period
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well carry in weapons from there and the law is useless
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats simple
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and logical
[13:48] CB Axel: A person in Chicago can literally walk across the street into Indiana, buy a gun, and walk back into strict Illinois and shoot someone.
[13:48] herman Bergson: The right to violence is to the Government only
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:48] CB Axel: That's why we need nation-wide gun laws.
[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ask Trump to realize that CB
[13:49] CB Axel: LOL
[13:49] herman Bergson: The problem is that that is a lost cause CB....
[13:49] CB Axel: That's a good one, Beertje.
[13:49] herman Bergson: whatever law you make in the US....
[13:49] CB Axel: I needed a laugh. hehehe
[13:49] herman Bergson: there are more guns in the US than inhabitants
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): MORE WEAPONS, MORE NUCLEAR BOMBS, MORE POLLUTION (Trump)
[13:50] CB Axel: But actually only a small percentage of Americans own a large amount of guns.
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sigh
[13:50] herman Bergson: owning one is enough...
[13:50] herman Bergson: and a lot do
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): this weapon issue is a problem fr sure, just look at these school shootings and you have the proof right there
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): their response: "Give teachers guns"
[13:51] herman Bergson: We are of topic..but ok...but indeed Bejiita..have you seenthe statistics over th eyears....shocking!
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): eeee NO! thats NOT the solution
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but they think
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that it is
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): guns do not = freedom
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats a fact
[13:52] CB Axel: You will never convince me that the solution to gun violence is more guns.
[13:52] CB Axel: Never.
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): very true CB
[13:52] herman Bergson: Welll..maybe you touch the basic belief there Bejiita....
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): just a never ending spiral of violence and murder
[13:53] herman Bergson: GUN = FREEDOM according to AMercan belief....
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sigh
[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it never can be freedom
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed not
[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): free to shoot a person?
[13:53] CB Axel: Well, a lot of people think that owning a gun makes them tough and macho. They ignore the fact that small children, toddlers, shoot people. So they're as tough and macho as a 3 year old.
[13:54] herman Bergson: I think they love to refer to the Wild West  and th egun slingers here
[13:54] CB Axel: That's what I'm afraid of, Herman.
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats for sure something you want to be free from, the risk to get shot by anyone
[13:55] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): life has no value anymore then
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i have even heard stories about people getting their head blown of when they knock on the wrong door
[13:55] CB Axel: Yes. That has happened, but not that often.
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ding dong!, BLAM!, door opens
[13:55] CB Axel: I just stay home and hang out in SL. °͜°
[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hopefully not often
[13:56] herman Bergson: accidents happen more often...
[13:56] herman Bergson: so keep it in proportion plz :-)
[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well that is true
[13:56] CB Axel: But the media reports on those things, Bejiita, because it attracts viewers.
[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I guess thats how it is
[13:57] herman Bergson: Anyway...Guess we all can agree upon that th eUS has a problem here....
[13:57] CB Axel: Good news does not generate money for news outlets.
[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i don't really know where to get real facts from anymore and i want real facts but it is as you say CB
[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its just fake news to make money
[13:57] Ciska Riverstone: it might if it would be motivational cb
[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hopefully things will get better
[13:58] herman Bergson: final shot....
[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least all of you are nice people and great friends
[13:58] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ....^_^
[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so cu all next time
[13:58] herman Bergson: Thank youall again...:-))
[13:58] CB Axel: Sometimes it's real news. People do get shot by mistake. But more people do not get shot. The danger gets inflated when people hear about those isolated incidents and don't think about all the times they themselves walked down the street without harm.
[13:59] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.
[13:59] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): True CB
[13:59] herman Bergson: is like Trump about the FBI......
[13:59] CB Axel: I apologize for dominating the conversation. It's just that I feel strongly about gun issues and feel extremely frustrated.
[14:00] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): understand that cb
[14:00] herman Bergson: The mistake is made is due to their involvement in the Russia investigation...
[14:00] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): no need to apologize CB
[14:00] Ciska Riverstone: totally understandable cb
[14:00] herman Bergson: We feel the same CB.....are flabbergasted by what happens
[14:00] CB Axel: Trump is an idiot. I don't listen to anything he says.
[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): agrees on that
[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and if anything is fake news its everything he says
[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least most of it
[14:01] herman Bergson: I spent a lot of time on Youtube watching all kinds of videos...
[14:01] CB Axel: You feel flabbergasted, but I do not have freedom from the fear of being caught in the crossfire in a shoot-out at the grocery.
[14:01] herman Bergson: Stephen Colbert and others but also Sarah Sanders and KellyAnn....
[14:02] CB Axel: I watch Colbert and Trevor Noah on the Daily Show.
[14:02] herman Bergson: I really wonder....what is going on there at you rplace CB?
[14:02] herman Bergson: Don't people get crazy about a president who gets ridiculed every day?
[14:03] herman Bergson: day
[14:03] Ciska Riverstone: what we can al be sure of is that when trump is no longer president we will read the story of his wife as a book and she will make a lot of money form that how much of a victim she was... thats something I would bet  a year of my income on
[14:04] herman Bergson: oh yes!
[14:04] CB Axel: There are too many people who think the people who ridicule Trump are the idiots. They believe everything he says and love everything he tweets.
[14:04] herman Bergson: She is already ready for it I would say...and already writing too..:-)
[14:04] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true, and its scary for sure
[14:04] CB Axel: I've been thinking the same thing, Ciska.
[14:04] CB Axel: I hope she does.
[14:05] Ciska Riverstone: the really bad thing is that we all kind of know
[14:05] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): when i first heard trumps screeching over a year before he got president i thought, DUH what an idiot, no worries, that one will be locked up in an asylum soon
[14:05] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but i was wrong
[14:05] CB Axel: I always have nice feelings for our First Ladies no matter who their husband is or what party he belongs to, but I fear for Melania.
[14:06] herman Bergson: Well BEjiita....
[14:06] herman Bergson: at least he succeeded in one thing....
[14:06] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): making an unexpected victory?
[14:06] herman Bergson: removing the US from the world theater of politics
[14:06] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess thats also true
[14:07] Ciska Riverstone: well he still has putin
[14:07] herman Bergson: We can not take this country to be serious or reliable anymore, I'd say
[14:07] Ciska Riverstone: ;)
[14:07] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least ww3 have not started yet
[14:07] CB Axel: Yes. I've never really been comfortable living in a "world power." I think I'd like to live somewhere small and quiet like Ireland. °͜°
[14:08] herman Bergson: Come to the Netherlands CB :-)
[14:08] herman Bergson: You are welcome :-)

Tuesday, February 20, 2018

700: Two Concepts of Freedom and our Autonomy

According to John Stuart Mill (1806-1873), as we saw in the previous lecture, for being autonomous it is crucial 
that we are free to determine ourselves what we do and that we can act without being hindered by others. 
Based on this idea of ​​autonomy, Mill criticizes different forms of paternalism, that is, measures of the State 
that are imposed on citizens, regardless of whether or not they have chosen it themselves.
According to Mill, the government can not determine what is best for us - we have to do that ourselves. 
Paternalism is only permitted, if it can be prevented by means of these measures, that a person harms someone else. We always need a police apparently.
We can basically do what we want with a knife, as long as we do not put it in the back of another person. 
My freedom thus ends where the freedom of the other begins. In addition, paternalism is permitted 
when it comes to measures that are aimed at people who are not able to make autonomous decisions themselves, 
such as people with a psychiatric disorder or young children. 
Mill, for example, would have no problem with compulsory education, but probably with the obligatory wearing of a seatbelt or the obligation to insure against medical expenses.

The freedom ideal of the classical liberal is thus an ideal of 'negative freedom': it is about the absence of external coercion. 
In contrast to this ideal, according to the British philosopher lsaiah Berlin (1909-1997), is the ideal of 'positive freedom'. 

"Two Concepts of Liberty" was the inaugural lecture delivered by the liberal philosopher Isaiah Berlin before the University of Oxford on 31 October 1958.
Positive freedom "is involved in the answer to the question 'What, or who, is the source of control or interference 
that can determine someone to do, or be, this rather than that?' The two questions are clearly different, even though the answers to them may overlap."
Positive liberty may be understood as self-mastery, and includes one's having a role in choosing who governs the society of which one is a part. 
Berlin traced positive liberty from Aristotle's definition of citizenship, which is historically derived 
from the social role of the freemen of classical Athens: it was, Berlin argued, the liberty in choosing their government granted to citizens.
So positive freedom means that you determine yourself, by acting in accordance with what you really want. 
If you are determined by desires that you would rather not have, then you are in a positive sense unfree. 
For example, if your girl/boyfriend is addicted to cigarette smoking, she enjoys negative freedom to the extent that she is not obstructed in buying cigarettes. 
However, we can ask ourselves whether it is freedom in a positive sense. Her choice to buy cigarettes is in a way determined by her addiction, and not by herself. 
Her real desire could be to stop smoking. The ideal of positive freedom is therefore linked to the idea of ​​a 'real' me: the person you would actually like to be. 
It is not so much about the absence of external coercion as the ability to determine yourself. There is, however, a weak spot in this positive freedom.
You are free and autonomous, if you can do what you REALLY want, but here is the tricky part:
Is it always the case that it is you yourself, who can tell what you really want or desire?
The logic is somewhat like this: 
(1) Smoking is harmful to your health and life expectancy, (2) nobody wishes to harm his own health (3) yet you smoke.
Conclusion: I have to tell you what you REALLY want, that is, preserving your health and life expectancy: Thence I forbid you the freedom to smoke.
Thank you for your attention ....^_^

The discussion

[13:22] Θαλής (thalesmiletus): There is also the issue of harming others through smoking so it also leads into paternalism that way.
[13:22] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): uche
[13:22] CB Axel: Maybe the smoker doesn't care how long he/she lives.
[13:23] herman Bergson: Yes indeed, Thales
[13:23] CB Axel: Maybe feeding the addiction is more important than living for a long time.
[13:23] herman Bergson: That is the problem with premise one and two CB
[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): who says you will longer live without smoking? you will never know
[13:24] herman Bergson: But they will say that you'll harm society due the the high medical costs for treatment you might cause
[13:25] CB Axel: I could breathe the cleanest air on earth, eat only the healthiest foods, and still die tomorrow.
[13:25] herman Bergson: hat life expectancy argument is indeed also a tricky one
[13:25] Θαλής (thalesmiletus): The problem here is a typical human struggle of short term rewards vs potential long term detriments.
[13:25] Θαλής (thalesmiletus): We're not good at thinking long term.
[13:25] herman Bergson: Got a point there Thales
[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): will you give up smoking for a few longer years? in anger or so? or have fun from smoking?
[13:26] herman Bergson: The quintessence here is to be able to be your TRUE SELF....
[13:26] Θαλής (thalesmiletus): whatever that is :)
[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ( I don't smoke)
[13:27] herman Bergson: Yes indeed....we are in search of the Self here at the moment with our project
[13:27] Θαλής (thalesmiletus): know thyself
[13:27] herman Bergson: The results are rather elusive and liquid, I'd say, so far :-)
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i am not too fond of this philosopher
[13:28] Θαλής (thalesmiletus): Who, Mill?
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:28] herman Bergson: I can imagine.....
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): now here he would be a libertarian
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not liberal
[13:29] herman Bergson: He created the idea of the invisible hand, if I am not mistaken
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i can understand some of the appeal of being totally  alone in control but we do live in society
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is shared
[13:30] herman Bergson: That idea of sharing is almost lost at the moment....
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i doubt he would be out fixing roads
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or  stopping a person from stabbing someone
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or putting out fires
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): when his house was burning down
[13:31] herman Bergson: Mill believed that the economic process would balance things....
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh right
[13:32] herman Bergson: sothat everyone would profit
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): where is the proof
[13:32] CB Axel: He sounds like a Republican.
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): thinks he may be one step away from ayn rand
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): in many ways
[13:32] herman Bergson: The problem is that this idea is a fundamental mistake.....
[13:32] Θαλής (thalesmiletus): Which idea?
[13:32] herman Bergson: Yes
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): most of them
[13:33] herman Bergson: the idea of the "Invisible hand"
[13:33] herman Bergson: and our modern idea of permanent economic growth
[13:33] Θαλής (thalesmiletus): is that the economic process?  It's been a long time since I've read Mill
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): "So positive freedom means that you determine yourself, by acting in accordance with what you really want. "
[13:34] herman Bergson: Then we first should stop advertizement :-)
[13:34] herman Bergson: and commercials :-)
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): :-)
[13:35] herman Bergson: Mill assumed that there would be a kind of natural relation between demand and supply...
[13:36] Θαλής (thalesmiletus): The invisible hand theory I guess was a nice idea but it's been put to the test in reality and shown to suffer from the same problems as many systems... that greedy/power hungry people will find ways to game the system in their favour.
[13:37] herman Bergson: (Guess I started typing my memoires :-)
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): there you go
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): true thales
[13:37] herman Bergson: I agree Thales
[[13:38] herman Bergson: So in what way can we give autonomy to the individual to let him be himself...
[13:38] herman Bergson: Well....let's not try to answer this question
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we never have
[13:39] herman Bergson: for this is the quintessence of all political debate at the oment
[13:39] herman Bergson: At the moment it seems that internationally the people who favor more sharing are the loosing ones
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is so true
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): scary
[13:40] Θαλής (thalesmiletus): At the moment maybe... but demographic shifts may also be happening
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the new young generation here seems to be more thoughtful about that
[13:40] Θαλής (thalesmiletus): Young people seem to be thinking about this stuff with a different attitude
[13:40] herman Bergson: Yes...and like in times of Marx....
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:40] Θαλής (thalesmiletus): Which gives me hope
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ohoh
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): lets not swing too  far
[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: they experience that It isn't working for their parents....
[13:41] herman Bergson: There was a small group of greedy capital and means of production owners...
[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: simelar thing that gave emancipation a push
[13:41] Θαλής (thalesmiletus): Gemma I agree, we don't want to swing too far, but we need to swing
[13:41] herman Bergson: and there came a reaction against the rresults of the industrial revolution
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): here we have swung too far enough to have this president
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and his cronies
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hopefully ......
[13:42] herman Bergson: I recently read the news that the owner of  owns 105 billion dollar as private possession
[13:43] herman Bergson: He could buy the whole Netherlands with it :-)
[13:43] herman Bergson: we need money to be ourselves and autonomous?
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i think he is joining with the group that is giving away 80% of it
[13:44] herman Bergson: Even if he does, Gemma, he wouldn't notice it.....
[13:44] Θαλής (thalesmiletus): I wonder what Mill would have thought about autonomy if he was faced with the question of what happens when robots replace most of labour. :)
[13:44] herman Bergson: Besides this "GIVING AWAY' idea can be dangerous and socially disrupting too
[13:45] herman Bergson: Robots don't coerce humans....
[13:45] Θαλής (thalesmiletus): yet :)
[13:45] CB Axel: Is it dangerous? I think he should give it to me as a test.
[13:45] herman Bergson: I see no negative effect on freedom there
[13:46] Θαλής (thalesmiletus): ok.. off topic
[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: heheh cb
[13:46] herman Bergson: That is the safest solution CB...I'll give him a call:-)
[13:46] Θαλής (thalesmiletus): herman the negative effect may be on 'positive freedom' maybe...
[13:46] CB Axel: He has plenty of my money already. °͜°
[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): you really WANT IT cb
[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ?
[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it gives you trouble
[13:47] CB Axel: I'm willing to take on those troubles.
[13:47] CB Axel: For the good of all. lol
[13:47] herman Bergson: The longer we discuss the issue the more complex it becomes :-)
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep
[13:48] Θαλής (thalesmiletus): If automation takes away things that people feel passionate about doing (like building stuff), then that might rob us of feeling productive and take away the 'positive freedom' opportunities.
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): always
[13:48] herman Bergson: Can we be autonomous and ourselves....?
[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): maybe we can be ourselves only in our minds
[13:49] CB Axel: Mass produced furniture hasn't taken away wood working from people who are passionate about it.
[13:50] herman Bergson: The same problem as when mass production became the method.....the individual looses contact with his (completed) creative product
[13:50] herman Bergson: True CB
[13:50] herman Bergson: In our minds we probably are a Self, Beertje...yes
[13:51] herman Bergson: But for some time now we are trying to figure out here what that means....WHAT is in our minds?
[13:51] herman Bergson: Still fascinating.....
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i fear it is elusive
[13:51] Ciska Riverstone: mh - look at the tons of diy  blogs - is it really gone?
[13:52] herman Bergson: But I guess we better put our minds to rest now after this complicated discussion :-)
[13:52] Ciska Riverstone: the point is if someone wants to be creative he / she will be - no matter what
[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I need another glass of wine now :)
[13:52] herman Bergson: What   kind of blogs Ciska?
[13:53] Ciska Riverstone: cheers Beertje
[13:53] bergfrau Apfelbaum: i am living now (even twice:-) i decide now, i enjoy it now,... my cigarette and the red wine and all of you ::-) ty herman and class
[13:53] Ciska Riverstone: do it yourself blogs
[13:53] Ciska Riverstone: who do a lot of carpeting
[13:53] Ciska Riverstone: and creative product design
[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:53] bergfrau Apfelbaum: cheersBeertje:-)
[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Proost, santé
[13:53] Ciska Riverstone: cheers bergie
[13:53] herman Bergson: Ok....before we all get drunk....
[13:53] bergfrau Apfelbaum: cheers:-)all
[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ha
[13:53] bergfrau Apfelbaum: lol
[13:54] herman Bergson: Thank you all again for your participation.....^_^
[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:54] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....:-)
[13:54] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.
[13:54] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman
[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bye for now
[13:54] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[13:54] Θαλής (thalesmiletus): Thanks Herman
[13:54] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ty Herman
[[13:54] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ( going to sleep completely confused now)
[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): see you all soon
[13:54] CB Axel: Beertje, you sound like me every night.
[13:54] herman Bergson: oh dear.....Beertje....!
[13:55] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): smiles..
[13:55] CB Axel: Welterusten, y'all.
[13:55] Ciska Riverstone: welterusten
[13:55] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): welterusten allemaal
[13:55] herman Bergson: Bye CB :-)
[13:55] bergfrau Apfelbaum: byebyes :-) see you soon

[13:55] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Gute Nacht Bergie