Thursday, May 21, 2015

585: God takes a vacation...

First of all an announcement. This will be the last lecture of this semester. The next lecture will be on Tuesday September 1.
Main reason is that RL will be and is already disturbing my peace of mind, because we are in the middle of the proces of selling our house and moving to another part of the country.
Besides I think we all really need a good vacation, which will allow me to prepare new projects for The Philosophy Class.
This announcement can not be qualified as evil, that happens to you. Unpleasant perhaps but not evil.
At least this is what we have learnt about evil: it only makes sense to call something evil when there is intentional action to harm another person involved.
The believe, that storms, hurricanes and earthquakes or a cholera epidemic are real evil, makes only sense,
when you believe that there is an intelligent agent behind its natural causes. This however is only for people with some kind of animistic believe system.
Or for those who believe in this Old Testament revenging god of christianity. You should watch Richard Dawkins on Youtube in his crusade against this kind of believe.
Now that I am talking about him, let me conclude this project with the classic “Problem of Evil”. It is wasted on secular listeners,
But keep in mind that a fast majority of the world population still believes in some god , who is directly involved with their personal lives.
It all boils down to this: The existence of evil and suffering in our world seems to pose a serious challenge to belief in the existence of a perfect God
If God were all-knowing, it seems that God would know about all of the horrible things that happen in our world. 
If God were all-powerful, God would be able to do something about all of the evil and suffering. Furthermore, if God were morally perfect, then surely God would want to do something about it.
 And yet we find that our world is filled with countless instances of evil and suffering.  
These facts about evil and suffering seem to conflict with the orthodox theist claim that there exists a perfectly good God.
The problem is this: When you claim that statement  A and B are both true, but their content is evidently contradictory then one of the two HAS to be false.
This problem we have to face when we say (A) God exists and (B) Evil exists. We first have to ask what is meant by EVIL and what is meant by GOD.
What we mean by evil is at this moment rather clear for us. At  least, independent of any believe system,
any intentional action to harm another person may be called evil.
What is meant by god we learn from all kinds of sources, but it is something like god means an all-powerful, all-knowing-all-moral, all-good being, which is related to human existence.
Even more, this being with these qualities is the very creator of human existence, in which we suffer a lot of evil.
I guess, you already see it coming: If evil and suffering exist, then God is either not omnipotent, not omniscient, or not perfectly good.
Or we could formulate in Dawkinsian wordings: Putting the point more bluntly, if God exists, he is either impotent, ignorant or wicked. 
Or in yet another way: suppose I have my gun pointed at a lunatic who is at the verge of slaughtering dozens of people.
The only way to stop him is to shoot him, but not only the imminent slaughter also the shooting of the criminal is harming a person.
What should god do? He can not allow the slaughter, nor can he let me shoot the criminal. Ok…the right solution is that he stops us both,
thus showing us his all-moral, all-powerful qualities. The very moment I’ll see this happen in our world I’l be more religious and devoted to god than the pope himself.
Thank you all for this wonderful year again and your persisting interests in philosophical issues…..
I hope to see you all again the first of September  after you have enjoyed a wonderful time.

The Discussion

Daruma Boa claps
Bejiita Imako: YAY! (yay!)
Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): claps too
Daruma Boa: thank U herman
Bejiita Imako:
Daruma Boa: for your
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): dankjewel Herman
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): still no graduation
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
Bejiita Imako: hahaah
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): phoo
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): back again in september to try again
herman Bergson: Yoiu did well this year yoo Gemma...I agree....
Bejiita Imako: good luck with the moving Herman
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): well missed more classes
CB Axel: Hmmm. I have a Tiny cap and gown somewhere in my inventory.
bergfrau Apfelbaum: ***** APPPPPPPLLLLAAAUUUSSSSEEEEEEE***********
bergfrau Apfelbaum: and ty herman!! for your great job!
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yes
herman Bergson: you're welcome Bergie ^_^
CB Axel: I do appreciate coming here. It's the only time I do any thinking at all.
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol CB
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): that is terrible
herman Bergson: This have been 12 projects so far...I have to find new inspiration.....
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): wow yes
Bejiita Imako:
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): look in Amsterdam
Bejiita Imako: I have to go there someday
Daruma Boa: ja there is enough inspiration
herman Bergson: Any suggestions for themes?
Daruma Boa: ja i could send you some I guess.
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): will have to think
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yes
Daruma Boa: Must have a look in my papers^^
herman Bergson: Plz do....
Daruma Boa: will do
herman Bergson: One I am thinking about is Free issue these days
CB Axel: We could look at the moral issues involved with either caring for the earth or completely trashing this planet and moving Mars.
herman Bergson: Would be great Daruma
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): that would bring up the idea of god again
Bejiita Imako:
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): who lets us practice free will
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): in his goodness
CB Axel: Not necessarily, Gemma.
Daruma Boa: can i send it on facebook or better here on sl?
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ah yes
herman Bergson: No facebook plz :-)
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
CB Axel: I can see free will being determined by the physics of the universe.
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): or voice
Daruma Boa: oki
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): could be a good one then
herman Bergson: This class will never be in voice Gemma :-)
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): I know
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): that is what i said
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): no voice
Daruma Boa: would be too loud^^^
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and
herman Bergson: would wake the people...!
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): no facebook
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and no graduation
CB Axel: lol
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): but góód classes Gemma
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yep
herman Bergson: Yes Gemma...a Spartan tradition here...^_^
Bejiita Imako:
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): the first few projects were a lot easier
CB Axel: There. I have my mortarboard.
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): a what CB?
herman Bergson: mortarboard? Is that what it is called CB?
CB Axel: Graduation hat in the US.
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i think my favourite was the women
herman Bergson: Yes that was a nice one, Gemma...loved it too....
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): of course
herman Bergson smiles
herman Bergson: Simone de Beauvoir is still on the wall here :-))
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yes
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): she was interesting
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): they all were
herman Bergson: I see that the Problem of Evil didn’t impress you that much :-)
Bejiita Imako: hehe
Daruma Boa: *GIGGLES* :)~~~~
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): was too short
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): we did nto take any field trips
herman Bergson: I had to bring it up.....
CB Axel: Well, since we all seem to be atheists here, we aren't too worried about evil, I guess.
Bejiita Imako: evil is an issue nowadays however for sure
herman Bergson: Indeed CB....
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): it has always been an issue
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): just different aspects of it
herman Bergson: I just brought it to your attention from a cultural perspective....
CB Axel: Evil, Bejiita, or just the stupidity of man?
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): in various times
herman Bergson: If you want to have fun...check out Dawkins on Youtube....
herman Bergson: hilarious....
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i saw soem of his stuff
Bejiita Imako: i d say IS and Boko haram are 2 big evils right now
herman Bergson: total waste of time....
Bejiita Imako: hehe ok
CB Axel: Sure, Bejiita. But did you hear about the recents shootings down in Texas?
herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita, they are...
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): heard someone i meant to remember the name
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): on tv
Bejiita Imako: aaa yes heard that :(
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): similar to dawkins
herman Bergson: yes our Dutchie Wilders was there too for a speech :-))
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ahha
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): of course there are some here who cannot distinguish between radicals and all muslims
herman Bergson: He is the political leader of the anti islam party with 20 or more seats in parliament
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): tsk that many??
herman Bergson: hasnt achieved a thing so far....
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): isnt that good
herman Bergson: yes...from the 150
herman Bergson: He has a bog mouth about islam and islamisation of the Netherlands....but that is all
CB Axel: That was at a competition to draw a picture of Mohammad sponsored by an anti-Muslim group. They were deliberately trying to provoke Muslims, so when there was violence they were able to say it's because Islam is a violent religion.
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yep
CB Axel: Who were the evil ones there? The shooters or the jerks that provoked them?
CB Axel: Or both?
herman Bergson: In Austria they have legislation now which obliges imams for instance to speak the german language...
herman Bergson: been accredited by an Austrian committee....things like that
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): both and IS is now saying they ordered it which I don’t believe for one minute
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): they take credit for everything
herman Bergson: The biggest problem with islam and greatest threat to our culture is that we have a separation between state and religion....
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): oh dear.... Austria
herman Bergson: Islamic countries have not....
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): exactly
CB Axel nods
CB Axel: The US also does not despite what our constitution says.
herman Bergson: What we achieved since the Enlightenment is threatened by this alien culture....
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): oh I think we do
herman Bergson: Indeed CB....!
Bejiita Imako: heard that Iran have banned "devil hairstyles" (punker hair and similar ) and tattoos since its against islam
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): there is and will never be a state religion
Daruma Boa: luckily gemma
Bejiita Imako: when power and religion mix problems arise
herman Bergson: No that will not happen in the US...I agree Gemma...
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): some may try hard to change that
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): but never
herman Bergson: But politics an religion in the US are culturally strongly intertwined
CB Axel: Tatoos are forbidden in Judaism, too, but Jews don't try to make others follow their beliefs.
herman Bergson: When a president says.....hand on the bible...So help me god almighty...
Bejiita Imako: IN GOD WE TRUST
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): however they are looking down on the Nigerian jews living there now too
Daruma Boa: a phrase
Daruma Boa: ^^^
Bejiita Imako: its a liiitle bit to much religion involved in US indeed
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): SOME are
herman Bergson: Ethiopian jews
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): I sorry..
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): oh yes I'm Sorry!
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): you are right
Bejiita Imako: as saidd, its never good to mix start and religion
Bejiita Imako: state
herman Bergson: Culturally interesting for there are also a lot of old Coptic christians in Ethiopia
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yes
CB Axel: I'm with you on that, Bejiita.
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): my philosophy says that the best thing that would bring all together would be a good alien invasion
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): from outerspace
CB Axel: LOL
Bejiita Imako: i really hope that that guy who wanted to shoot homosexuals since its against the bible never got anywhere
Daruma Boa: oh ha
Daruma Boa: what an idea
herman Bergson: I have thought about that often myself Gemma....
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): nothing short of that i think
Daruma Boa: they get killed the aliens
Bejiita Imako: such dudes in politics spells disaster
Daruma Boa: peeps are too much afraid of things they don’t know
herman Bergson: That first yes, Daruma..unfortunately...
Bejiita Imako: ah
CB Axel: You'll have to narrow that down, Bejiita. There are too many here that feel that way for me to know who you mean. ;)
herman Bergson: But such avisit would discredit all religions one way or the other
Bejiita Imako: dont remember his name but what i read about him made me cringe
Bejiita Imako: and he was some politican candidate i think
CB Axel: Probably.
herman Bergson: Ted Cruz?
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): no
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): he would’n to shoot anyone
herman Bergson: Who has the will of God on his side?
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): oh yes he does he says
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i don’t even believe that he believes that
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): but it sounds good to some
CB Axel: I follow @TheTweetOfGod on Twitter and today he said that he talks to Republicans and tells them to run for office for the fun of it.
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate):   ,.·^*'´|'\            ,.·^*'´¯¯¯'`*^·,  ,/ |'`*^·-, 
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate):   '|         |  \       ,·'       ,.·:*:·,         '`i   |          | 
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate):   '|         |   |      ;          ':,:::,:·          ;   |          | 
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate):   '|         |   :i - ·;i'`:,         ¯¯         ,·´|  '|          | 
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate):  '|         '´         '|'i   `*:~· - ~^*'´    |   |          '`*·-, 
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate):   '|          ,.-:^:':'\:'`:;                   :;·:i  /`':^·.,        `'i 
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate):   '|..,.:'´              '\| '`*^~·:-:·~^*'´'|/            '`::.., | 
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate):   '´:           ;:-·^*'´                              `'*^·:;-        :;·' 
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate):       `·;:·'´                                                      '`^·:;·´ 
CB Axel: Yes. God is on Twitter.
herman Bergson: Mankind will only make a step forward when it realizes the irrational foundations of their religions
CB Axel: So I guess he does exist.
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): there are so many going to run the stage will be very very full
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Bernie Sanders of Vermont would be a favourite of yours I think
CB Axel: I do like Bernie. °͜°
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): he is so so common sense!!!
bergfrau Apfelbaum: ty herman ty class :-) see you in September! have a good summer all!! *sun smile*
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): see you bergie
CB Axel: A Sanders/Warren ticket would be fun.
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye Bergie:)
Bejiita Imako: cu bergfrau
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): goodnight
herman Bergson: see yuo Bergie ^_*
bergfrau Apfelbaum: byebye´s :-)
bergfrau Apfelbaum: wavewav
CB Axel: Bye, bergfrau. See you in September.
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): it will come fast watch!!
Bejiita Imako: good luck with moving now Herman
Bejiita Imako:
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yes
herman Bergson: Well we firsst need a serious buyer...:-)
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ah
Bejiita Imako: that can bee a good idea
Bejiita Imako:
CB Axel: I hope your move is uneventful.
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): dont break anything
Bejiita Imako: and not haunted with evils and miss happenings
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): anything even
Bejiita Imako:
herman Bergson: But the house was published with photos on the internet and someone wanted an appointment within ten minutes after posting it
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ah nice
Bejiita Imako: aa ok
CB Axel: That's promising.
Bejiita Imako: yes
herman Bergson: tomoorw two visitors...Friday another one....
Daruma Boa: and may the force be with you^^^
Bejiita Imako: YAY! (yay!)
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): you are doing it yourselves???
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's a beautiful house:)
herman Bergson: yeah Daruma....!
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): not a agent?
Daruma Boa: i will send u and notecard here on sl
herman Bergson: hehe...want to see my house?
Daruma Boa: concerning themes
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ah nice
CB Axel: Sure, Herman.
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i think we saw it a while back
herman Bergson: I look forward to it Daruma!
CB Axel: I may want to move out of the US after the next election. °͜°
Daruma Boa: ja in septemvber 1st we get a photo show about the new house here^^^
herman Bergson: these are new pictures....super cool
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ah ok
Bejiita Imako:
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): it was in a viewer of the island vacation some years back
herman Bergson: You can see my desk this time :-)
herman Bergson: My desk is in the living room...
Daruma Boa: hoi rodney^^^^
herman Bergson: the other study is my wife's :-)
Bejiita Imako: is that your house?
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): very nice
Rodney Handrick: Hi Daruma
herman Bergson: Yes it is Bejiita
Bejiita Imako: aaa looks really nice
Bejiita Imako:
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): rodney
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): hi
herman Bergson: You can buy it if you like :-)
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): has been ages
CB Axel: That's a lovely house. You must really want to be closer to Amsterdam to leave it.
Rodney Handrick: Hi Gemma
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): thinks it will be better to be near Amsterdam for services
herman Bergson: YEs CB....this is not the place to be buried ^_^
Bejiita Imako: indeed, id love a place like that even if i like it here too
Bejiita Imako: seems cozy
herman Bergson: Hi Rodney
Rodney Handrick: Hi Herman
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): last class of the year rod
CB Axel: Hmmm. A lot of religious imagery. Are you sure you're not a closet Christian?
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): you missed the whole year
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): oh dear
Rodney Handrick: Ah...timing
herman Bergson: lol...CB ....September 1 will be my coming out!
CB Axel: LOL
Bejiita Imako: i like the hall floor
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ok all have a great summer
Bejiita Imako: kind of special
CB Axel: Well, take care and have a successful move.
Bejiita Imako:
herman Bergson: yes..1936
CB Axel: I'll see you all in September. °͜°
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): bye to all for now
Bejiita Imako: aaa cu then
Bejiita Imako: bye
herman Bergson: Bye Gemma
herman Bergson: CB
Daruma Boa: bye cb
Daruma Boa: bye gemma

Tuesday, May 5, 2015

584: How to pinpoint evil...?

Philosophers often discuss an example in which a person is presented with a dilemma. If he kills one innocent person, ten others will be saved. If he does not, they will all be killed.
Raimond Gaita  in his book  “Good and Evil, An Absolute Conception” (1991) puts it this way:
“The deeper issue is that those who think it obvious that one should be shot to save ten have no serious sense of evil – neither of evil done nor of evil suffered.”
A serious statement. The primary assumption is, that we as human beings should do no evil. And thence the question is, what should the person with the gun DO?
Will he do good or evil when he comes to a decision? We can interpret evil done as an action of power,  power to alter, control and arrange. We have power for good and evil.
Moral behavior is a matter of practical and purposive action: its purpose is to make life better for ourselves and others.
Is it not clear, you could say, that once someone is in such an awful situation the aim of moral thinking is to ‘ameliorate’ it, 
and is that not done by having one corpse rather than ten? What can someone who refuses to shoot be thinking of?
It is a characteristic feature of discussions of such examples that the dilemma is presented from the point of view of the one who might do the killing.
That seems perfectly natural, for is it not his problem? However, he is not the only one in the situation who has a problem. 
Everyone is caught up in the evil of it. The one who might be shot and the ten who might be saved must ask themselves what they hope for, and hopes, like actions, may be good or evil.
Their problem is not whether at the end of the day there will be one dead or ten dead – that is not within their power. 
It is, whether they may justifiably hope for and inwardly consent to the killing of another for themselves.
One important question in this awful situation is “What OUGHT to be done?”, but of equal importance is how to characterize this situation and capture the evil in it.
One crops at the end or ten? What could be the moral justification for the person, who is put in this situation?
In a Kantian or deontological approach to morally evaluating acts of violence, one considers the principles one deems valid that would yield judgments about particular actions. 
The actions are seen to have characteristics that make them wrong or right in themselves, regardless of their consequences. 
For instance, it is inherently wrong to lie or deceive, even if doing so may on occasion have good results. 
Similarly, acts of violence can often be judged to violate people’s rights and thus to be inherently wrong, or they can be acts of law enforcement and thereby often justified. 
We can contrast this with a consequentialist approach to morality, of which utilitarianism is the leading example, in which actions in themselves are neither right nor wrong
but are to be judged on the basis of their consequences. From this viewpoint, violence is often considered as unfortunate but necessary to enable to achieve a desirable outcome. 
Whether the good consequences of a violent act outweigh the bad depends in our case on considerations such as how many people will die. 
Our evaluations of these factors usually rest on empirical estimates, but that we cannot avoid acting on.
This is a peculiar philosophical situation, for what is the answer to the question “Should he kill the one person or not?” What is evil here? What is immoral?
Thank you…feel free to come up with questions or remarks. The floor is yours… ^_^

The Discussion

Max Chatnoir: What could be the moral justification for the person who has set up that situation?  Who or what is going to kill the 10 people?
herman Bergson: a firing squad , Max..
Rodney Handrick: As a soul we have our own journey to reconnect to the source.
Max Chatnoir: who is giving the orders to the firing squad.  why can't I just say, don't shoot?
CB Axel: So kill them all so they can reconnect to a source?
Rodney Handrick: It maybe the lesson that needs to be experienced by that particular soul.
CB Axel: Max, maybe it's the one person who's going to kill the ten. °͜°
Max Chatnoir: Ah, the one that I have to shoot?
herman Bergson: Have you seen the movie Fury?
Max Chatnoir: No.
Rodney Handrick: No
CB Axel: No.
herman Bergson: ok :-)
CB Axel: It was playing at the Second Cinema not long ago, but I didn't go.
herman Bergson: There is a similar situation....more or less
Rodney Handrick: don't go to movies much
herman Bergson: Is not a fun movie....
Max Chatnoir: Doesn't sound like it.
herman Bergson: But the problem here is....what to DO in this situation....
Rodney Handrick: synopsis of the movie...
herman Bergson: and is doing what you do evil or good?
CB Axel: It would depend on who all the people are.
herman Bergson: No...we leave out all circumstantial features
herman Bergson: it is about who is gonna be killed
CB Axel: If the one person was someone I cared deeply for and the 10 were Republican members of the US Congress, there would be no dilemma.
herman Bergson: lol
herman Bergson: The issue here is what is morality.....
Rodney Handrick: All people want the live
Max Chatnoir: We've had multiple cases of people walking into schools or theaters and waving a gun around.  They pretty much always wind up shot.
herman Bergson: Is Kant right with his deontic approach or is the consequentialist right....?
Max Chatnoir: Or shoot themselves.  Unfortunately, they get it in the wrong order.
Rodney Handrick: They do that because it gives them a sense of godlike power
Max Chatnoir: I don't think that the shooters of the shooter are generally regarded as evil.  However there was one woman in a school case who actually managed to talk the shooter down.
Max Chatnoir: I thought that was pretty remarkable.
Rodney Handrick: Those individuals are cowards...
herman Bergson: Yes....
CB Axel: I think it's the consequences that matter.
herman Bergson: And here were have the issue of justiefied violence...
Rodney Handrick: They're looking for attention
CB Axel: It' not the body count, it's what will happen afterward that matters more.
herman Bergson: which is justified evil if you take violence toward any person as evil
herman Bergson: Can the person who is ordered to kil the innocent other person and thus save the other ten feel justified if he shoots?
herman Bergson: Can taking a human live ever be justiefied?
CB Axel: I think so, but he could also be justified in letting the 10 go.
Rodney Handrick: They always need a justification (ie dogma)
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): oops I forgot
Max Chatnoir: Hi, Beertje.
herman Bergson: But this reduces morality to a kind of quantitative administration, CB
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): soooo sorry
Rodney Handrick: Hi Beertje
CB Axel: Well, one reason I'm against the death penalty is that I wouldn't want to kill someone and don't feel it's right to ask someone else to do the killing for me.
herman Bergson: Hi Beertje :-)
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Goodevening Herman Max and Rodney
CB Axel: Hi, Beertje.
Rodney Handrick: I don't have that problem
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hi CB:)
herman Bergson: Indeed CB...that was on my mind to...the death penalty debate
Max Chatnoir: There you have a person who has already been taken out of social circulation, and who is threatening nobody.
CB Axel: I'm actually in a position where I could start and IV and infuse lethal drugs, but I wouldn't do that job.
Rodney Handrick: I don't have a problem with the death penalty.
CB Axel: *start an IV
Max Chatnoir: I do, if only because the legal system sometimes gets it wrong.
CB Axel: Well, I also feel that life in prison is a worse fate than death.
herman Bergson: I'd think so too CB
Max Chatnoir: I would agree.
Rodney Handrick: Getting it wrong has been going on for centuries.
herman Bergson: Getting wrong what, Rodney?
Max Chatnoir: No doubt. But once the guy is dead, you can't apologize.
CB Axel: A death sentence, Herman.
Rodney Handrick: death penalty judgments
herman Bergson: If that is the case then you never should apply a death sentence, I would say
Rodney Handrick: You don't make sure you get it right before it reaches that point!
CB Axel: People have died in prison waiting to appeal their case.
Rodney Handrick: this is true CB
herman Bergson: Well..the basic question is.....Is taking a human life ever justifiable yes or no...
Max Chatnoir: Well, I don't think I expect either police or the justice system to be infallible.
CB Axel: Getting it right isn't always easy.
Rodney Handrick: Yes and NO
Rodney Handrick: That's the challenge CB
herman Bergson: unfortunately, that answer doesn’t apply in a philosophy class, Rodney :-)))
Rodney Handrick: It's "hard" work!
herman Bergson: Something can not be true and false at the same time
herman Bergson: So we HAVE to choose...
herman Bergson: And that is so amazing in the human condition here....
Rodney Handrick: And that is the will - choice!
herman Bergson: If we adopt the rule that you NEVER kill a fellowman....and when you do it is evil...all is clear
CB Axel: Either way you go with our 1 vs 10 question, you will have had a hand in someone's death. It's just that the you would have one more degree of separation with the death of the 10 than you would with the 1.
herman Bergson: If you say....there are situations where you have to war for instance....self defense...we have a problem....
herman Bergson: Yes CB...the idea that ten deaths is a greater evil than one death....
Rodney Handrick: I was CB...Vietnam - desert storm
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): how great is that evil is that one death is your child?
herman Bergson: I think we reach here the limits of our mind....
Max Chatnoir: I think that part of the reason so many people come back with PTSD is the stress of making that kind of decision.
herman Bergson: I think so too, Max....
CB Axel: I think you're right, Max.
herman Bergson: because we have no answer to the question actually
Rodney Handrick: I think the problem is we have to connect to our "higher" selves to understand
herman Bergson: But situations force you to an answer based on your own will to survive...
CB Axel: What if I don't have a higher self?
herman Bergson: I don’t have one too, Rodney :-)
herman Bergson: Wouldn't have the slightest idea what and where to look for
herman Bergson: or even how to look....with what sensses?
Rodney Handrick: I think the Zen Buddhist would know...
herman Bergson: I guess I leave you pondering about this issue...:-)
herman Bergson: Here we won't come up with a definite answer...
CB Axel: It's an old conundrum and no one has ever come up with a definitive answer.
CB Axel: I doubt we ever would.
Max Chatnoir: I honestly don't know whether failing to act would be worse than acting in the situation you describe.  It's the kind of decision that people in the police or the miliatry have to make frequently.
herman Bergson: But the dreadful question still stand...should he kill the one person or not...
Max Chatnoir: Well, you could say "Hey, I didn't start this," and just bow out.
herman Bergson: yes Max....a terrible condition...
Max Chatnoir: or you could say, Please don't do that because I'd rather not have to kill you.
Rodney Handrick: It's the same problem as eating...animal /vegetable both forms of life.
Max Chatnoir: Or you could just shoot and sort it out later.
CB Axel: You could always just turn the gun on yourself.
Rodney Handrick: Max and CB - both true
Max Chatnoir: I'm not sure that solves the moral question, CB.  Just another way of taking yourself out of the situation.
herman Bergson: Doesn’t change the question, still take a human life
CB Axel: If I had come here in my mouse avatar that would change THAT argument. LOL
herman Bergson: Same problem as euthanasia...
Rodney Handrick: I still go back to the issue of the individual soul and the lessons that needs to be experienced
herman Bergson: But that assumes a lot of metaphysics, Rodney....
herman Bergson: More a kind of religious approach
Rodney Handrick: Yes CB I would tyre to takeout the
Max Chatnoir: Is killing something that needs to be experienced?
Rodney Handrick: True Herman
herman Bergson: Yes in SL is much easier that in RL :-))
herman Bergson: Here I take morals now and then too with a wink
Max Chatnoir: I've hit dogs while driving a couple of times because I wasn't quick enough to avoid them.  That was bad enough.
Rodney Handrick: Yes Max...go on a hunt for wild game.
herman Bergson: Difficult issue Rodney.....
herman Bergson: killing human being in contrast with killing animals....
herman Bergson: Here again it is about basic choises...
Rodney Handrick: Can't help you there have to provide an answer to the dog
Max Chatnoir: Oh, I still think those Chinese millionaires that make dog food out of their expensive pets when they get bored are doing evil.
Max Chatnoir: And serial killers often begin by killing animals.
Rodney Handrick: I agree Max
herman Bergson: Yes Max.....general respect for life....
Max Chatnoir: Hunting for food is a different issue.  I'm not a vegetarian and I don't go out and slaughter my own cows.
CB Axel: But I've known plenty of huntsmen who would not kill a person.
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): do you eat meat Max?
Rodney Handrick: Good guard dogs
Max Chatnoir: If I had to slaughter my own animals, I would probably have to become a vegetarian, so I let somebody else take that hit for me.  I do recognize that I'm just dodging the issue.
Rodney Handrick: Yes you are Max
herman Bergson: I think it is time to end our discussion here....
herman Bergson: You got enough to think about, I'd say :-)
CB Axel: I eat meat. I don't hunt. But that has more to do with not wanting to go slogging through the woods at dawn in the cold than with not wanting to kill for food.
herman Bergson: So, thank you all again :-)
CB Axel: Thank you, Herman. Good discussion!
Rodney Handrick: In a real survival situation the will to survive cause us to reevaluate our views.
herman Bergson: yes, Rodney...
Max Chatnoir: I can well believe that, and if somebody were coming at me with a machete, I would probably shoot back.
Rodney Handrick: That applies to both human and animal
Max Chatnoir: Or some really sharp teeth.
herman Bergson: Well...thank you all again....class dismissed :-)
Rodney Handrick: Thanks Herman
Max Chatnoir: Thank you, Herman.
Max Chatnoir: I always enjoy these discussions.
CB Axel: I'll be looking forward to that picture you took of me, Herman. °͜°
Max Chatnoir: I will see you all next week.
herman Bergson: You will be surprised CB :-))
CB Axel: See you all next week.
Max Chatnoir: I need to go see what my student is up to.  :-)
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): excuses for being late tonight...i have to read the blg I guess
CB Axel: Beertje, did you make that dress?
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes CB i did
CB Axel: Wow! That's gorgeous.
Rodney Handrick: Well, I guess if I stop over for a meal...can't count on steak and potatoes...:-)
herman Bergson: She is gooooooooood, CB!
CB Axel: OK. See you next week.
Rodney Handrick: where's the photo?
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol..Herman looks thru pink glasses...
herman Bergson: Nice you dropped in Rodney :-))
Rodney Handrick: Thanks Herman
Rodney Handrick: Bye all
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): goodnight
herman Bergson: By eRodney
herman Bergson: ok...op naar de beta grid

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ok