1265: Carl Menger...

 Carl Menger (1840 - 1921) was born in what is now Poland and worked in the office of the Prime Minister in Vienna, Austria. 

  

He published his "Principles of Economics" in 1871, the same year that Jevons published his Theory of Political Economy. 

   

Through his "Principles", Menger made fundamental contributions to the economic theory of value and price, 

   

centering on the theory of utility and the complementarity relationships between consumer and producer goods, which means how goods at different stages of production relate to each other.

   

What I am wondering about is the question of what caused the shift from labor-related to consumer-related goods in the theory of value in economics?

  

The shift happened because labor theory couldn’t explain value in many real-world cases.

   

The traditional way of thinking was that the value of a commodity was a property of the object itself, like temperature is a property of water. 

  

You could measure it by counting the hours of work. It could explain the price of things you find in a hardware store, but it couldn’t explain the price of a vintage wine, a sunset view, or a rare baseball card. 

   

Like Jevons, Menger concluded that the classic value theory of labor could not explain all economic phenomena. Value of goods originated from something else.

   

Menger’s key insight: value depends not on total usefulness but on the specific unit at hand, the marginal unit.

   

This is why the consumer entered the picture. The question became: what is the utility of a product for the consumer?

   

William Jevons answered this question in the best English tradition and agreed with Jeremy Bentham: utility in this context means that the product increases the pleasure and reduces the pain.

  

Carl Menger’s analysis did not use the pleasure–pain theory of Jevons, but rather the idea of subjectively felt human needs and the translation of these into consumer demands. 

  

In Menger's words, it sounds like this: "Value is ... nothing inherent in goods, no property of them, nor an independent thing existing by itself. 

   

It is a judgment economizing men make about the importance of the goods at their disposal for the maintenance of their lives and well-being."

   

What this all means we'll discuss in the coming lectures.

Main Sources:

MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995

http://www.iep.utm.edu/

 http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.htm

Glyn Davies:  The History of Money (2002)

 Jürgen Georg Backhaus: Handbook of the History

of Economic Thought (2012)

TABLE OF CONTENTS -----------------------------------------------------------------  

  1 - 100 Philosophers                                              9 May 2009  Start of

  2 - 25+ Women Philosophers                              10 May 2009  this blog

  3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking                               10 May 2009

  4 - Modern Theories of Ethics                              29 Oct  2009

  5 - The Ideal State                                               24 Febr 2010   /   234

  6 - The Mystery of the Brain                                  3 Sept 2010   /   266

  7 - The Utopia of the Free Market                       16 Febr 2012    /   383

  8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism                      5 Sept 2012   /   413

  9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist                             6 Nov  2012   /   426                        

10  - Non-Western Philosophy                               29 May 2013    /   477

11  -  Why Science is Right                                      2 Sept 2014   /   534      

12  - A Philosopher looks at Atheism                        1 Jan  2015   /   557

13  - EVIL, a philosophical investigation                 17 Apr  2015   /   580                

14  - Existentialism and Free Will                             2 Sept 2015   /   586         

15 - Spinoza                                                             2 Sept 2016   /   615

16 - The Meaning of Life                                        13 Febr 2017   /   637

17 - In Search of  my Self                                        6 Sept 2017   /   670

18 - The 20th Century Revisited                              3 Apr  2018    /   706

19 - The Pessimist                                                  11 Jan 2020    /   819

20 - The Optimist                                                     9 Febr 2020   /   824

21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream                8 Oct  2020   /   872

22 - A World Full of Patterns                                    1 Apr 2021    /   912

23 - The Concept of Freedom                                  8 Jan 2022    /   965

24 - Materialism                                                      7 Sept 2022   /  1011

25 - Historical Materialism                                       5 Oct 2023    /  1088

26 - The Bonobo and the Atheist                             9 Jan 2024    /  1102

27 - Artificial Intelligence                                          9 Feb 2024    /  1108

28 - Why Am I Here                                                 6 Sept 2024   /  1139

 

The Discussion

[13:13] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman

[13:13] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:14] herman Bergson: So, now the value of a product relates to human need, the eagerness to obtain it, personal preferences

[13:14] herman Bergson: And scarcity of a product comes into play now, too

[13:15] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes, sometimes created scarcity

[13:16] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): so the prices can be hight

[13:16] Max Chatnoir: I have an interesting example of that.

[13:16] herman Bergson: Go ahead, Max

[13:16] Max Chatnoir: About a week ago, I fell off my front porch and broke a couple of small bones in my back.

[13:17] herman Bergson: Oh my...

[13:17] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Like my MPC Sample, everyone wat oe so its sold out everywhere, however it is not a created  scarcity by the manufacturer here but just that it sells like crazy

[13:17] Max Chatnoir: I went to the ER to get a diagnosis and they gave me some very good painkillers, which I really needed.

[13:17] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): everyone want to have one it seems

[13:17] Max Chatnoir: They also gave me a prescription for the painkillers.

[13:17] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa oki Max

[13:17] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ow

[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hope ur ok now

[13:20] Max Chatnoir: The pharmacy told me the insurance wouldn't cover the painkillers, and it would cost me about $150, BUT They had a special deal that would give it to me for $10.  Well, I already knew that the painkiller,  Tramadol, an opioid had worked earlier, and my back really hurt, so I took the deal.  A little later in the week, they ran the same deal on one of the other meds.

[13:20] Max Chatnoir: That has not happened to me before, so I was kind of surprised.

[13:21] Max Chatnoir: So.  Urgency increases value.

[13:21] Max Chatnoir: Also, the threat of a higher price.

[13:22] Max Chatnoir: They said they had a "coupon" and I don't have any idea what that was about.

[13:23] herman Bergson: Your need to relieve the pain made the pharma more valuable.

[13:23] Max Chatnoir: Which let me get it at a higher price than the insurance would have paid, but not the much high price.

[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): for the same drugs Max?

[13:24] Max Chatnoir: Once the insurance covered it, for the refill, I got it for about a dollar.

[13:25] Max Chatnoir: Says so on the label.

[13:25] Stranger Nightfire: There have been some major scandals around the pricing of pharmaceuticals

[13:25] herman Bergson: A pretty complicated story, Max.

[13:26] Max Chatnoir: It sure felt like some kind of scam, with the mysterious "coupon".  Which I did not see, by the way.

[13:26] herman Bergson: yes  indeed Stranger. Strange system  you have  in the US.

[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): how can pharmaceuts make a profit over people who are sick?

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes, Indeed Stranger

[13:26] Max Chatnoir: Easily, apparently.

[13:27] herman Bergson: Because it is a free market and people absolutely need the pharmaceuticals

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so they charge like a million dollars for a single dose - only the rich will survive

[13:28] herman Bergson: Here you clearly see how not the labor invested in the production of a medicine, but the consumer's  need determines the value

[13:28] Stranger Nightfire: So far, we have mostly talked about the value of actual material products

[13:28] Max Chatnoir: My question for myself was, "if they hadn't made the "coupon" deal, would I have paid $150 for the drug?

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess this is one prime example

[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes, you needed the drug Max

[13:29] Stranger Nightfire: but in our current stage of capitalism, we have these other strange kinds of values, like the value on a share in a corporation

[13:29] Stranger Nightfire: And there the factors acting upon it can get very weird and mysterious

[13:29] herman Bergson: Yet that too is a psychological matter, Stranger

[13:30] Stranger Nightfire: A good case in point might be Elon Musk, who I hold to a significant extent has the wealth and power that he does out of a talent for personal branding and hype

[13:30] Stranger Nightfire: Tesla stock, for instance, has always been outrageously overpriced

[13:31] herman Bergson: Like people are willing to pay high prices for tech shares, because they promise high dividends, for instance

[13:31] herman Bergson: maybe here the human trait, called greed, comes into play

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aha

[13:33] Stranger Nightfire: Right now, we may be facing a really devastating collapse of an AI bubble

[13:34] herman Bergson: Like we had something similar  formerly with the Internet Bubble

[13:34] Max Chatnoir: Internet Bible, Bubble?

[13:34] herman Bergson: Bubble

[13:34] Stranger Nightfire: Extremely overvalued stock and AI companies that are not actually profitable currently in any way

[13:35] Max Chatnoir: Thanks.

[13:35] Stranger Nightfire: When people say our current stock market in the US is doing well that is entirely based on the overvaluation of these AI stocks and I guess the NVIDIA stocks for the processors used by AI

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): The problem is AI is wayyyy overhyped like Google wants to replace their entire search system with AI-generated slop, no human-made content will be found, just AI-generated stuff

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and it consumes too much electrricity ad we consumers want our computer hardware back

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i refuse to rent a computer through a dumb terminal like they want

[13:36] Max Chatnoir: I've been finding AI stuff lately at the top of my Google searches.

[13:36] herman Bergson: Yes, me too, Max

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): google want to replace their entire search engine so that all you will be abl to find is AI slop, no human-created content whatsoever, everything just AI-generated

[13:38] herman Bergson: When do you expect the collapse, Stranger?

[13:38] Stranger Nightfire: It's hard to say

[13:38] Max Chatnoir: I guess the search has always been AI, but before it just sent me to a source. Now there is a little summary of the info.

[13:39] Stranger Nightfire: I heard a story once about a guy back in a what would have been thinking the year just before the big collapse in the 20s there was a guy who felt like the stock market was a big over inflated boondoggle that but everyone else was telling him he must be crazy and he even took that to heart and decided he should go see a psychiatrist to see if he was insane

[13:39] The region you are in now is about to restart. If you stay in this region you will be logged out.

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as i heard, instead of giving u links to web pages, it will just AI-generate everything

[13:40] Max Chatnoir: Oh, dear.  Restart...

[13:40] Stranger Nightfire: And when the psychologist said he seemed to be half a perfectly well-functioning logical mind, He and the psychiatrist took their money out of the stock market just in time

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): OMG the AI demon got angry at me!

[13:40] Stranger Nightfire: Too bad the earthquake is coming

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok, sim restart time

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I guess

[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont)I have to go, have a good weekend, and take care

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hugs beeertje

[13:40] The region you are in now is about to restart. If you stay in this region, you will be logged out.

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well, another interesting lesson

[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): see you soon:)

[13:41] Max Chatnoir: I won't be down long....

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): happy weekend

1264: Decisions at the Margin...

 Around 1870, economic thought changed. The change was called the Marginal Revolution, as I mentioned in the previous lecture.

It dealt with decisions at the margin, which you can translate as decisions about the next one. It refers to the process of making choices 

  

by comparing the **additional benefits** and **additional costs** of a small change in an existing situation, rather than evaluating the total benefits or costs from scratch.

  

Economic thought wasn't anymore about objects and their properties, about the labor invested in their production or the cost of production to determine the value of these objects.

   

The value of products and services was now based on their utility for humans, based on human preferences and desires.

  

You have to study for an exam. Should I study 0 hours or 10 hours? An all-or-nothing decision. The Marginal Decision approach would be:

  

You have studied for three hours. Now what is the marginal benefit of adding a 4th hour? The extra points you might gain on the exam from that one extra hour.

  

However, the marginal cost of a 4th hour could be the lost sleep, relaxation, or social time from that one extra hour.

   

If the benefits are higher than the costs, you invest in an extra hour. Then re-evaluate for the 5th hour. 

  

Eventually, the extra benefit drops. You're tired, you know most of it, and the extra cost rises. 

  

You're exhausted. When the benefits don't increase and are equal to the costs, you stop adding extra hours of study. That is how you maximize your benefit.

  

You have a factory that produces chairs. Should you hire 0 or 50 workers, an all-or-nothing decision? The marginal approach would be:

  

You have 10 workers. Should you hire an 11th? Marginal benefit could be the extra output, for instance, 10 more chairs per day, that the 11th worker produces.

 

The marginal cost, that is, the cost of the next one, would be the extra wage you pay to that one worker. Hire as long as the extra revenue from chairs is higher than the extra wage.

   

Why was this approach revolutionary? Before the Marginal Revolution, classical economists often thought in total or average terms:

  

They argued that the total labor required to produce, for instance,  a diamond- lots of mining and cutting- makes it valuable. 

  

Water has huge total utility, though essential for life, but a low price. Diamonds have low total utility, just decoration, but a high price. 

  

Marginal analysis solved this paradox instantly:

Water is abundant, so the marginal unit, the next glass you drink, has very low value because you already have plenty.

  

Diamonds are scarce, so the marginal diamond, the next diamond, has very high value because it's an extra luxury you don't already have.

  

Decisions at the margin mean: base your choices on the next unit, the incremental change. Compare what you gain from one more unit versus what you give up for that unit.

   

Almost all real-life relevant economic decisions, for instance, how much to work, save, produce, or consume, are made at the margin, not as all-or-nothing choices.

  

An interesting detail is that this line of thought was developed independently by three economic thinkers.

   

The Marginal Revolution moved economics from looking backward, costs incurred, to looking forward, utility to be gained. 

     

It moved the center of gravity from the factory floor to the human mind. It taught us that value is not a fact of physics. It is a relationship between a person and a thing at a specific moment.

   

We already discussed William Stanley Jevons. The other two, Menger (Austria) and Walras (France), I'll present to you in coming lectures.

    

For now, we can conclude, based on Jevons' ideas, that economics. Thus, the value of products and services is guided by our marginal decision: does taking another one increase my pleasure or might even cause pain?

Main Sources:

MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995

http://www.iep.utm.edu/

 http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.htm

Glyn Davies:  The History of Money (2002)

 Jürgen Georg Backhaus: Handbook of the History

of Economic Thought (2012)

TABLE OF CONTENTS -----------------------------------------------------------------  

  1 - 100 Philosophers                                              9 May 2009  Start of

  2 - 25+ Women Philosophers                              10 May 2009  this blog

  3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking                               10 May 2009

  4 - Modern Theories of Ethics                              29 Oct  2009

  5 - The Ideal State                                               24 Febr 2010   /   234

  6 - The Mystery of the Brain                                  3 Sept 2010   /   266

  7 - The Utopia of the Free Market                       16 Febr 2012    /   383

  8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism                      5 Sept 2012   /   413

  9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist                             6 Nov  2012   /   426                        

10  - Non-Western Philosophy                               29 May 2013    /   477

11  -  Why Science is Right                                      2 Sept 2014   /   534      

12  - A Philosopher looks at Atheism                        1 Jan  2015   /   557

13  - EVIL, a philosophical investigation                 17 Apr  2015   /   580                

14  - Existentialism and Free Will                             2 Sept 2015   /   586         

15 - Spinoza                                                             2 Sept 2016   /   615

16 - The Meaning of Life                                        13 Febr 2017   /   637

17 - In Search of  my Self                                        6 Sept 2017   /   670

18 - The 20th Century Revisited                              3 Apr  2018    /   706

19 - The Pessimist                                                  11 Jan 2020    /   819

20 - The Optimist                                                     9 Febr 2020   /   824

21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream                8 Oct  2020   /   872

22 - A World Full of Patterns                                    1 Apr 2021    /   912

23 - The Concept of Freedom                                  8 Jan 2022    /   965

24 - Materialism                                                      7 Sept 2022   /  1011

25 - Historical Materialism                                       5 Oct 2023    /  1088

26 - The Bonobo and the Atheist                             9 Jan 2024    /  1102

27 - Artificial Intelligence                                          9 Feb 2024    /  1108

28 - Why Am I Here                                                 6 Sept 2024   /  1139

 

The Discussion

[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you, Herman

[13:27] Max Chatnoir: Thanks, Herman.

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): This is i think something I have heard when reading about, say high end audio. Do a speaker and amplifier system costing as much as a luxury house with cabling that i can use for welding, current-wise, sound much betteere them the Yamaha Cervin Vega combo i already have, hree that i think sound just great

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): diminishing return

[13:29] herman Bergson: So, you almost could say that the price of a product isn't based on its cost of production, but on our feeling....Should I buy another one?

[13:30] Max Chatnoir: And maybe in Bejiita's case, What can I do for myself?

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Same with this device I just bought, Im learning to use these at the moment from a friend, but I dont have one myself, fins this portable one at a goo price point, however, u need to be lucky to grab one because EVERYONE else wants this thing also (scarcity?)

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): https://www.akaipro.com/mpc-sample/

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its this thing an it is all the rage now

[13:31] herman Bergson: Could you keep your remarks more concise, Bejiita...please

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm its just hard for to explain it all but

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats some examples i have matching this

[13:33] herman Bergson: As I said.. you almost could say that the price of a product isn't based on its cost of production, but on our feeling....Should I buy another on?

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:33] Max Chatnoir: So the decision is with the consumer, not the manufacturer?

[13:33] herman Bergson: Thus, the consumer becomes the main character in economics

[13:33] herman Bergson: yes, Max

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i get the concept i think

[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): most pe0ple in those days were very poor; did they have a choice to concider to buy something else?

[13:34] herman Bergson: What is a manufacturer that produces worthless, unusable products?

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I pondered long still over if i should eat it or not, like do I need this thing really vs, but I want to try something fun and new this year

[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): China produced useless products, still people are buying this

[13:35] herman Bergson: Well, Beertje Ford paid his employees enough so they could afford a T-Ford in those days

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): you can't eat from a T-Ford

[13:36] bergfrau Apfelbaum: @ what is a manufacturer who produces worthless, unusable products? --> an artist?

[13:36] herman Bergson: The car was not intended to be eaten :-)

[13:36] Max Chatnoir: :-)

[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i know, but there were costs like garage and fuel

[13:37] herman Bergson: Such a manufacturer goes bankrupt, Bergie

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): The car moves u around and this new device will allow me to create sample base music whereveer i am, like a musical instrument i can carry with me all the time and do like live shows, that would be great fun

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so do I "need" it?

[13:38] herman Bergson: The main point here is that we as consumers set the price of products (more or less manipulated of course by advertisement)

[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont)And when they were used to driving a car, after a few years they wanted a new one, did T-Fort buy that too for them?

[13:39] herman Bergson: The workers were able to buy a T-Ford....that was the case

[13:39] Max Chatnoir: But maybe not every year.

[13:40] herman Bergson: I don't know the details...but of course not...

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or if u are a collector, even if u have several already

[13:40] herman Bergson: That is a different psychology, Bejiita

[13:41] herman Bergson: But nevertheless...the question is...buying a next one...does it increase my pleasure?

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Like this is my first sampler but my friend is learning me this music are at moment collecting these. so would this one be less valuable to him ( he dont have the sample model yet)

[13:41] Max Chatnoir: Well, it might if you actually can use two cars.

[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes I think so, going back to use your horse is difficult

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aha

[13:42] herman Bergson: I know people who  own dozens of cars...real collectors

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:42] Max Chatnoir: But do they drive them or just put them on display?

[13:43] herman Bergson: The latter of course....

[13:43] Max Chatnoir: Car of the week, maybe?

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or like say Jay Leno

[13:43] herman Bergson: Seems to be a terrific feeling to own all those cars :-)

[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): afraid to lose all of them

[13:44] herman Bergson: Nice feeling too, Beertje :-)

[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): if you own a lot, you can lose a lot

[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): the nice feeling of having too many cars doesn't last long

[13:45] herman Bergson: No, it is the kick of obtaining another one...

[13:45] herman Bergson: That is what happens in big money too

[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): never enough

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): collecting things is a thing in itself, i thought so myself that I can start with that one and at least collect the smaller models if I like using it because they are not that expensive + they are portable even they dont have all bells and whistles of the larger versions but still enough

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats how i thought, + a new art for me

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): new challenge

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so worth it i say

[13:46] herman Bergson: When you own a hundred million dollars.... another ten are not interesting, but the kick to obtain them seems to be the drive

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats how i reasoned when I ordered mine yesterday

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm sseems so indeed Herman

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least for some

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or its a comptition between rivals, of who has the most

[13:48] herman Bergson: So, I guess we have now reached consumer-based economics

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): status

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aha

[13:49] herman Bergson: Let's see what Menger and Walras have to add to this...

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and the timing was perfect

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:49] Max Chatnoir: :-)

[13:51] herman Bergson: And I really get a feeling that within  a few decades after 1870, and this revolution, greed will become one of the players in economics

[13:51] herman Bergson: We'll see....

[13:51] herman Bergson: So thank you all again...

[13:51] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ,,,

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): YAY! (yay!)

[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman

[13:52] Max Chatnoir: Thanks again, Herman.  Something to ponder...