Monday, April 6, 2015

575: Can there ever be morality without religion?

The Barna Group is a Christian polling organization set up to ask questions that would interest the Christian community by showing beliefs or trends within the United States.
Now listen to what this group discovered! 
The Barna Group found that atheists and agnostics in America were more likely, than theists in America, to look upon the following behaviors as morally acceptable: 
illegal drug use; excessive drinking; sexual relationships outside of marriage; abortion; cohabitating with someone of opposite sex outside of marriage; 
obscene language; gambling; pornography and obscene sexual behavior; and engaging in homosexuality/bisexuality.
This I found on under the lemma “Atheism and morality”
Do you want more? ^_^ 
Atheism and pornography , Atheism and child pornography, Evolutionary belief and sexual immorality. Abortion and atheism, Atheism and rape, 
Atheism and profanity, Atheism and sexually transmitted diseases, Atheism and homosexuality, Atheism and sadism. Atheism, polyamory and other immoral relationships, 
Atheism and hedonism, Atheism and bestiality, Sexual immorality and Sweden, Atheism and alcoholism, Atheism, alcoholism and anger, Atheism and drug addiction, 
Atheist hypocrisy, Atheism and mass murder, Irreligion/religion and war/peace, Militant atheism, Irreligion and domestic violence, 
Secular Europe and domestic violence, Sweden and domestic violence, Atheism and sadism, Atheist bullying….. and so on and so on.
Atheism eventually will turn the world into a Sodom and Gomorra, when you page through this list. The verbal aggression against atheism regarding this subject is amazing.
The presumptuous attitude of believers in a god (and in this debate it is mainly the christian god), who think that they are the inventors of morality, is astonishing.
Take this myth: Without God, atheists have no reason to behave morally. What's the point of being moral if there is no God?
The fist thing that may strike you here is the implicit assumption, that god creates morality in man and morality is doing god’s will for a reason.
Albert Einstein made the point well in his “Ideas and Opinions” (1954): “A man’s ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; 
no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death.”
Actually, I don’t understand the meaning of this belief, that morality can only exist within the context of religion. Why put people energy in such a debate?
To begin with: Of course, the history of philosophy is full of nontheistic systems of morality. I can name just a few of the more influential ones: Aristotle’s Nicomachean Ethics (334 B.C), 
Immanuel Kant’s Groundwork for the Metaphysics of Morals (785), Arthur Schopenhauer’s On the Basis of Morality (1860), 
John Stuart Mill’s Utilitarianism (1863), Jean-Jacques Rousseau’s Social Contract (1762), Henry Sidgwick’s The Methods of Ethics (1874) – and there are so many others that it is impossible to list them
But apart of all these nice philosophers there is reality, the facts of history, biology and evolution. To begin with, how can social animals survive in their communities when they lack a sense of rules and order.
In that respect I’d like to remind you of the experiments of Frans de Waal and have a look again at his presentation. Just use the picture on the wall to my left.
But there is more. If we take the Cro-Magnon as the first early modern humans (early Homo sapiens sapiens) of the European Upper Paleolithic we arrive in 43.000 years B.C.
Now, who was here first? God or the Cro-Magnon, who was able to live a social life, which means that he must have had an understanding of what to do and what not to do in the group.
In other words, this homo sapiens must have had an insight in what was right and what was wrong long before a monotheistic religion was invented.
And then, when according to my god I am entitled to murder every person, who does not believe in him and throw every homosexual from the highest building,
what  kind of morality is that? Defintely NOT my sense of morality!
Thank you again….. the floor is yours… ^_^

The Discussion

Bejiita Imako: indeed not mine either
herman Bergson: Exactly Bejiita
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): CNN is presenting some stuff on atheism in america
herman Bergson: ahhh...
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): please ignore that website
Bejiita Imako: religion dont create morale, the opposite is true, used as excuse to kill and cause misery to people who dont "fit in"
herman Bergson: why that Gemma?
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): looks like the real right wing conservative groups who believe in the literal translation of the bible
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): adn is trying to portray the USA as a Christian country
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): there are a lot of them I'm Sorry! to say
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): I sorry..
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): but
herman Bergson: The biggest producer of porn?
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): freedom of speach in usa allows that
Bejiita Imako: dual morale for sure
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): might lliek to check this out
herman Bergson: I dont think it is a nice be a christian country...
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate):
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i know
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): but they do
herman Bergson: if you take into account the worldwide sexual child abuse by christian priests
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): fortunately the constitution allows separation of church and state
herman Bergson: child abuse
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): mandates it
herman Bergson: that is an interesting subject this separation....
Bejiita Imako: hmm
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and also allows freedom of religion
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): prohibiting establishment of a state church
Bejiita Imako: still, to have as mantra in US that "in god we trust" tells a bit
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yep
herman Bergson: yes but in the US you have democrats and republicans...
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): right
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
herman Bergson: non religious parties...
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): many of the republicans are avid believers
Bejiita Imako: yes but majority still religious in some way i guess of the individuals
herman Bergson: But in th Netherlands you have Christian democrats, Protestant parties, liberal paries....socialist parties
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): true
Bejiita Imako: and thus it spills over and causes issues
herman Bergson: that is what I mean....
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): but
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): many democrats are too just not nutty about it
herman Bergson: You never know whom you are dealing with when you deal with a repiblican...
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yep
Bejiita Imako: ah
herman Bergson: but inthe Netherlands at least you know...ok..he is a believer...christian democrat...
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): the first guy to say he is running for president as a republican is a real firm beliver
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): son of a minister who believes in the literal interp of the bible
herman Bergson: yes Ted Cruz....scary person....sick ideas
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yep
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): he is
Bejiita Imako: what that guy said about killing homosexuals before was one of the most awful things i ve heard
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): scary is mild
Bejiita Imako: since it s agaist gods will
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): he wont go far
Bejiita Imako: he stated
Bejiita Imako: hope so
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): me too
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): fingers crossed
Bejiita Imako: shudders
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): there are still moderate republicans
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ahha max
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): *~**~* Hey, Welcome back! *~**~*
herman Bergson: that Ted Cruz is a danger to mankind...
Bejiita Imako: wb max
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i agree
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): but very very smart
Bejiita Imako: and for one thing, im bisexual myself and i see no strange in that
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): brilliant in some ways
Max Chatnoir: Sorry, I had a long phone call from a student's mother.
Bejiita Imako: its more common then people want to believe
Bejiita Imako: no strange thing at all
herman Bergson: Bejiita...what in the world makes the sexual inclinations of a person so interesting...???
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): actually the father of ted is more interesting
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
Max Chatnoir: How so?
Bejiita Imako: i wonder that too
Bejiita Imako: i mean wht does it mean what sexuality a person have really? i dont get it
Bejiita Imako: make love not war i say
Bejiita Imako: and world would be all peaceful
herman Bergson: me neither....but when you study the history of it, you'll see that it always has been some kind of political issue...
Bejiita Imako: tired of all damned wars all over
herman Bergson: and that is because the government is related to religious ideas...
herman Bergson: Like Dutch politics was long time dominated by christian parties
herman Bergson: But to say it in a nutshell
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): most governments were at one time anyway
herman Bergson: We were here earlier than the monotheistic religion and we were able to build a society...
Max Chatnoir: Nice point!
herman Bergson: so the idea that you need a god for morality....nuts
herman Bergson: You need man for morality
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): you need common sense too
herman Bergson: and as I mentioned in my lecture...even primates have a sense of fairness for instance
Bejiita Imako: indeed, we had morale before religion
herman Bergson: common sense should be in the head of man :-))
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yes the monkeys get it
Bejiita Imako: we dont need religion, it only cause suffering and unfairness
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): not always the case Herman:)
Bejiita Imako: at least many religions do
herman Bergson: true ^_^
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i know a lot of lunatics
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): but it is also unfair to blame religion and those who believe for all ills too
Bejiita Imako: this IS bastards would blow p the planet if they could, they still only get to meet their god right?
Bejiita Imako: thats how suicide bombers think and i bet these are same if not worse
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): some believe that yes
Bejiita Imako: a threat to the entire earth
Max Chatnoir: Figuring out what makes more sense seems more productive than figuring out which god is the "real" one
herman Bergson: it is not a matter of blaming anyone, I would say, Gemma...
herman Bergson: that is not the point...
herman Bergson: what does religion to society is the big question
herman Bergson: why is there religion?
herman Bergson: What does it add?
Max Chatnoir: But I think it is hard for people not to hear that question as "What good is MY religion."
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): but some do
herman Bergson: It cuases and caused some nasty things....
herman Bergson: but that did communism too...or fascism...
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): you know that many get their morality from their religious belief
Max Chatnoir: so it becomes a personal challenge rather than a social question.
Bejiita Imako: hmm
herman Bergson: If you assume that religion is NOT the real source of morality, people who base their morality on religion are not well informed
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): I think the Pope would disagree with you
Max Chatnoir: Well, I think that various moral systems have been integrated into religious tradition, like the 10 commandments.
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and he is very well informed
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): :-)
herman Bergson: but that leads to another myth about atheist: The atheist has no purpose or meaning in life...
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): that is definitely a myth
Bejiita Imako: I have a purpose, that is to feel good, make my friends happy and find more higgs bosons once LHC is fixed
herman Bergson: I cnat discuss this with the Pope Gemma...he is a believer....
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i know
Bejiita Imako:
herman Bergson: Two weeks Bejiita...then all is fixed :-)
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): really??
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): only 2 weeks more?
Bejiita Imako: aaa i got some report that hopefully they didnt needed to open the magnet itself but could maybee flysh it uut
herman Bergson: was in my newspaer today :-))
Bejiita Imako: flush
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ah
Max Chatnoir: I don't know how much of the Code of Hammurabi is repeated in the 10 commandments.
Bejiita Imako: increase speed and flow direction of helium pumps
Bejiita Imako:
Bejiita Imako: direct report from CERN
Bejiita Imako: with pictureds
herman Bergson: I dont know either Max, but some of the 10 commandments are rather common sense ideas about how to keep peace in a society
Bejiita Imako: ok
Max Chatnoir: Yes.
herman Bergson: Stay away from my woman, don’t murder, dont kind to each other
herman Bergson: Oh,,I saw an interview with such a christian republican
Max Chatnoir: don't tell lies about other people, etc.
herman Bergson: who say that the ten commandments should be the law....
Max Chatnoir: NONONONO
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): that is one of them
Bejiita Imako: hehe
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): scary
Max Chatnoir: But they already ARE, pretty much, aren't they?
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): well it is basically
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): right
herman Bergson: then the interviewer asked him...can you tell us the ten comamndments....which are they...
herman Bergson: He couldnt....:-))))
Bejiita Imako: hmm religion andlaw never mix
herman Bergson: knew two or three only :-)
Max Chatnoir: I don't think there is anything about honoring your parents in the constitution, or the Sabbath, or who God is, but the rest of it is there.
Max Chatnoir: Well, maybe not adultery -- I guess that was mostly state laws.
herman Bergson: Inmost constitutions I guess...and in the Human Rights Treaty....
Max Chatnoir: and I think that was part of regarding women as property.
herman Bergson: But these ten commandments were not invented by some god....
herman Bergson: homo sapiens did it himself...43.000 years ago
Max Chatnoir: No, they were invented by some Human who wanted God's imprimatur.
Bejiita Imako: very true
herman Bergson: Not even that, I'd say, Max....
Max Chatnoir: appeal to authority.
Bejiita Imako: fairy tales becoming law sort of
Bejiita Imako: THAT is not good for sure!
Bejiita Imako: laws should be stated from facts and reality
herman Bergson: Anyway...Iguess we made our point again today ^_^
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): guess so
Bejiita Imako: guess so
Bejiita Imako:
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): keep an eye on ted cruz
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): will be interesting
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and scary
Bejiita Imako: when LHC fire up ill turn him to higgs bosons
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): until he gets out
herman Bergson: We were first with our morality...god cam 41.000 years later and stole the price :-))
Max Chatnoir: He is prone to do or say something stupid, so maybe the republicans will shut him down.
herman Bergson: Is becaus eour morality wasn't copyright!
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yes
Bejiita Imako: hmm indeed, that guy seem totally nuts!
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): but many of them will be appealing to the same audience
Bejiita Imako: lock him into the asylum
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): so will be interesting
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): he really is not totally nuts tho be
herman Bergson: if you talk about Ted Cruz...I regard him as a true and real danger to world peace
Bejiita Imako: i guess religion got the best of him
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): just believes teh way he believes
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i do to herman
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): absolutely
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): that is why i say keep an eye on him
herman Bergson: and I mean it....
Max Chatnoir: But I agree he is scary.  I never thought that the GW Bush would get reelected.
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i know!!!!!!
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and now his brother is in the mix
herman Bergson: Bush was close to that way of thinking....
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): tho a totally different type
Bejiita Imako: bush, the war started
Bejiita Imako: starter
herman Bergson: fortunately yes
Bejiita Imako: ok
Max Chatnoir: I have to ask how committee Cruz is to his beliefs since he bought in on Obamacare after badmouthing it for months.
Max Chatnoir: how committed
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): he has to
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): by law
Max Chatnoir: So I don't know if he is really nuts or if he is just manipulating the nut fringe.
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): so he will
Bejiita Imako: ok
Max Chatnoir: Well, he has to have insurance, but he didn't have to get it that way.
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): it is the only way
herman Bergson: He is manipulating....
herman Bergson: all smart politicians do
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): grassly put an amendment in some law that all the senators and reps must use that health care act to have insurance
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): last year
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and it is now the law
herman Bergson: for your health.....Class dismissed ^_^
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): they can get the subsidy to pay for it from the govt because of their positions
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
Bejiita Imako:
Bejiita Imako: cu nexy time
Bejiita Imako:
Max Chatnoir: Thank you, Herman.
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): back to regular time next week
Max Chatnoir: Oh, Gemma, I just noticed you are back.  Good to see you.
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): remember
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ty

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