The standard economic theory assumes that goods and activities do not change character by commercializing them or offering them for sale.
Think of human organs, the willingness to accept dangerous situations like for instance stuntmen do, buying your entrance to a university,
using your body for advertisement, collecting money for charity, selling and buying CO2 rights and so on.
Market transactions increase the economic efficiency, they say, without the merchandise in question is being changed.
That is why economists generally are sympathetic to the use of financial incentives to encourage desirable behavior.
The reasoning is that market transactions are to the advantage of the two parties involved, buyer and seller, without harming other parties.
At least, IF you assume that the market and the human attitudes which are cultivated by this process do not undermine the immaterial value of the exchanged merchandise. and exactly this assumption is questionable.
A simple example: a theater company organizes performances of a play of Shakespeare and distributes free tickets, so that everybody can attend a performance.
Some smart guys get hold of as much tickets as possible and because these performances are so popular, they have no problem selling the free tickets for big money.
Here an immaterial social value gets degraded and corrupted by making the tickets to merchandise.
Fred Hirsch (1931-January 1978) was Professor of International Studies at the University of Warwick. He was a senior adviser to the International Monetary Fund from 1966 to 1972 where he worked on international monetary problems.
In his book "Social Limits to Growth" (1976) he is one of the first who warns us, that standard economic theory does not take into account this "commercialization effect".
By that he means "the effect on the character of a product or service when it only or mainly is provided through commercial way,
things as informal exchanges, mutual obligation, altruism and love (...) Generally and almost always implicitly it is believed that the process of commercialization has no influence on the product. "
And the effect on the character of the product was, that it changes the attitude of people and displace the immaterial values represented by or related to this good. when the market mechanisms are applied to the distribution of such a good,
Hirsch died shortly after publication of his book, which was publish just before Thatcher became Prime minister in the UK (1979 - 1990) and Reagan(1981 - 1989) was elected president of the US.
They opened the floodgates for the free market and helped to ignore these observations. It is now, that we become aware of it.
Economic theory focuses on explaining how competitive markets work: how they curb the SELFISH INTERESTS of market participants
by balancing them one against another in a way that results in the production of goods and services according to consumers' preferences and an efficient allocation of resources to their production.
To make the argument simple, intelligible and convincing required a highly simplified model of the economy,
that focused on the satisfaction of man's bodily needs and left out every obstacle, imperfection and complexity that could actually or potentially interfere with the market economy's perfect functioning.
In other words, economists created their own right theory by leaving out all other characteristics of human nature except selfish interest.
It seemed to have worked till now. So finally work for philosophers again …..
The Discussion
[13:23] herman Bergson: Thank you... ^_^
[13:24] Debbie Dee (framdor): Thank you Herman.
[13:24] Kime Babenco: Thanks Herman
[13:24] Umae Ying: which other characteristics did they leave out
[13:24] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:24] Bejiita Imako: YAY! (yay!)
[13:24] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you herman
[13:24] herman Bergson: actually all Umae...all our immaterial values...
[13:24] Bejiita Imako: everything but the money
[13:25] Bejiita Imako: yourself is worth nothing only your wallet for those economists
[13:25] herman Bergson: like altruism, citizenship, social care, love and so on
[13:25] herman Bergson: the material mechanisms of economy were only driven by self-interest according to economists
[13:25] Mick Nerido: PBS is an example that commercial interests don't like...
[13:25] Bejiita Imako: if u have little money no one like u if u have money everyone does
[13:25] Umae Ying: they use those in advertising to attach those feelings to the products
[13:25] Bejiita Imako: thats no nice development
[13:26] herman Bergson: what is PBS Mick?
[13:26] Umae Ying: yes Mick
[13:26] Mick Nerido: Public brodcasting in USA
[13:26] Debbie Dee (framdor): So how to distribute these soft items without corrupting them? Like social care, love, altruism?
[13:27] herman Bergson: Let me give you an example Debbie.....
[13:27] herman Bergson: In the Netherlands teachers get paid a fixed salary....
[13:27] Lizzy Pleides: everywhere i guess
[13:27] Mick Nerido: PBS is mor alturistic because the sponsors don't have compete control
[13:27] herman Bergson: a year or so ago someone seriously came up with the idea to give successful teachers in bonus..a financial reward!
[13:28] Debbie Dee (framdor): Yes. but in some places parents contribute extra
[13:28] herman Bergson: No that is a different issue....
[13:28] anneke13 Bailey is online.
[13:28] Kime Babenco: I need to relog... hold on
[13:28] herman Bergson: What upset a lot of people is that you become a teacher because of an intrinsic motivation
[13:28] Kime Babenco is offline.
[13:28] herman Bergson: ok Kime
[13:29] Kime Babenco is online.
[13:30] Umae Ying: i know teachers who do not have that motivation at all
[13:30] herman Bergson: Oh yes Umae...the world is full of bad people...
[13:30] herman Bergson: But I dont think that is the point....
[13:31] herman Bergson: welcome back Kime...
[13:31] Kime Babenco: Thanks
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: wb kime
[13:31] herman Bergson: Let me answer Debbie and Umae this way....
[13:31] Lizzy Pleides: wb Kime
[13:31] Kime Babenco: Thanks
[13:31] herman Bergson: What economists totally have ignored is the existence of intrinsic and extrinsic motivation
[13:32] herman Bergson: extrinsic motivation is that you are wiling to do something if for instance someone pays you for it..
[13:32] herman Bergson: extrinsic
[13:33] herman Bergson: intrinsic motivation is your willingness to act because it comes straight from your heart...
[13:33] herman Bergson: Because it gives meaning to your life
[13:33] herman Bergson: oops...
[13:33] herman Bergson: did Debbie crash?
[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I didn't do anything now...
[13:34] Lizzy Pleides: as far as we are having a free will herman, we discussed that, ... i believe in intrinsic will too
[13:34] herman Bergson: to help someone because you feel that you have to is caused by intrinsic motivation...
[13:34] Kime Babenco: Everyone today?
[13:34] herman Bergson: social care, altruism, love....name it
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: economists only think there is extrinsic motivation
[13:35] Mick Nerido: Music art theater etc...
[13:35] herman Bergson: yes Mick..indeed
[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): without Intrinsic the world is not a very nice place to be
[13:35] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita....
[13:35] herman Bergson: Indeed Beertje....
[13:36] herman Bergson: there wouldnt be idealists..
[13:36] herman Bergson: only well paid zealots
[13:36] Lizzy Pleides: we would be kinda robots
[13:36] herman Bergson: It would mean that you can hire Green Peace for an action against slaughtering dolphins
[13:36] Kime Babenco: What do you mean with that ?
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: and buy friends
[13:37] herman Bergson: yes Bejiita...
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: and that mean there is no human value anymore, everyone is just after the others money
[13:37] herman Bergson: yes...
[13:37] herman Bergson: so it is obvious that money can not buy everything...
[13:37] herman Bergson: or to say it in other words
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: u cant set a price on a life
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: but economists think that
[13:38] herman Bergson: money can not buy that what we need most
[13:38] Kime Babenco: But it can buy a lot ! Even justice mostly
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: and thats also how the world mostly look
[13:38] herman Bergson: Yes Kime....that is true
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: poor people die unnoticed while the rich ones are protected by armed men ect
[13:38] herman Bergson: It doent buy justice but injustice...
[13:38] Wonny (wonda.masala) is online.
[13:39] herman Bergson: It corrupts justice
[13:39] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:39] Bejiita Imako: awful
[13:39] Bejiita Imako: thats not how it should be
[13:39] Kime Babenco: My grandparents told be one get harder punished for getting a chicken from a governators garden, than for killing a poor person
[13:40] herman Bergson: In some countries this is the case indeed Kime
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: just like i said above, poor people have no value, thats really nasty
[13:40] Umae Ying: the guy who robs a gas station gets a bigger sentence than nixon leaving office
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: very sad development
[13:41] herman Bergson: Is it a development Bejiita....
[13:41] herman Bergson: To simplify the problem....
[13:41] herman Bergson: The world is divided in rich and poor people
[13:41] herman Bergson: The rich have all power, the poor have no power
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:41] herman Bergson: but is this true...?
[13:42] Umae Ying: yes and no
[13:42] herman Bergson: smiles at Umae...
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: in many places it is
[13:42] herman Bergson: indeed Umae
[13:42] Umae Ying: if the poor would unite and vote together they could make a difference
[13:42] Umae Ying: but
[13:42] Kime Babenco: And what you will do to change that ? IF you can at all... because money knoows money and power knows power
[13:42] Umae Ying: they do not receive an education that enables them to sort some of those things our nor figure out how to organize
[13:43] Umae Ying: and they do not own the media like the rich do
[13:43] Lente (lentelies.anatine) is offline.
[13:43] Kime Babenco: Take a look to Russia, where Putin is on...
[13:43] herman Bergson: No...but yet..the rich are a minority...
[13:43] Lizzy Pleides: then we belong to the rich part umae, don't we?
[13:43] Kime Babenco: Take a look at Venezela on the contrary maybe
[13:43] Kime Babenco: Venezuela*
[13:43] Umae Ying: rich is relative sometimes
[13:43] herman Bergson: Or Lybia, Egypt, Russian revolution..
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: even worse, look at syria, the protests failed and now the regime slaughters everyone
[13:44] herman Bergson: French revolution...
[13:44] Umae Ying: if you are alturistic…then you can take sides if you wish
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: their entire population
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: awful
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: i thought the people would have some chance against that regime but seems not
[13:44] Kime Babenco: Chavez did a lot for the poor people in Venezuela, which is appreciatable, but ruined the others
[13:44] Umae Ying: we are supposed to be able to vote...unlike them
[13:45] Kime Babenco: That kind doesn't work either
[13:45] Umae Ying: but corporations and big money now have full access ... FULL ACCESS to the propaganda ...in a way unprecedented
[13:45] Lizzy Pleides: but our cote is nothing, the corporations have more power than the people
[13:45] Lizzy Pleides: vote*
[13:46] Mick Nerido: Families are disfunctional, so is larger organizations...
[13:46] Umae Ying: we have believe in our vote... and fight the disenfranchisement of the "photo id's" etc
[13:46] herman Bergson: At least it may be clear that it is not a simple division between rich and poor from a historical perspective
[13:46] Lizzy Pleides: i agree
[13:46] herman Bergson: It is not a law of nature that the rich always will keep their power
[13:47] herman Bergson: law
[13:47] herman Bergson: History has shown the opposite
[13:47] Kime Babenco: We are not divided into classes like in India . where from one class someone almost not can get up
[13:47] herman Bergson: And at this moment I think the rich within capitalism are scared...
[13:48] herman Bergson: they are exposed and their greed has become public...
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: ah
[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): someone who is scared can do terrible things
[13:48] Kime Babenco: Great
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: like in Syria
[13:48] Umae Ying: yes
[13:49] Kime Babenco: Yes, as well
[13:49] herman Bergson: yes Beertje....they will think of tricks...to keep what they have...
[13:49] Mick Nerido: Power corrupts
[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes
[13:49] herman Bergson: but they can not stop the ongoing debate
[13:49] Bejiita Imako: indeed
[13:49] herman Bergson: the bear is loose...
[13:49] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:49] Qwark Allen is online.
[13:49] herman Bergson: capitalism is NOT the real solution...
[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what is the real solution then?
[13:50] herman Bergson: as I showed in my lectures..the market even destroys what we think is valuable
[13:50] Kime Babenco: How much dictators find and easy old day , in peace when they leaved their country after making years of disaster ?
[13:50] Umae Ying whispers: the bear is paying their way into the senate and house...and on other levels too... they are just buying the laws (lawmakers) that protect them
[13:51] Umae Ying: campaign contributions super pacs and lobbyists
[13:51] herman Bergson: True Umae....
[13:51] herman Bergson: if the rich want Obama to stay president....he is reelected..basta
[13:51] Umae Ying: the rich want ronney
[13:52] herman Bergson: Really?
[13:52] Umae Ying: and his "free trade" etc
[13:52] herman Bergson: hmm that makes things interesting...
[13:52] herman Bergson: this would mean that when Obama wins the rich do not rule the world for 100%
[13:53] Umae Ying: i wouldn't go that far
[13:53] herman Bergson: which would confirm that we value more things than only money
[13:53] Bejiita Imako: that would be good for sure
[13:53] Kime Babenco: I heared the richest person from Europe wantes to move to another country..
[13:53] Kime Babenco: Only for payinglasss taxes
[13:53] Bejiita Imako: where there are no taxes
[13:54] Bejiita Imako: i dont get it, the more money u have the less u want to pay
[13:54] Bejiita Imako: its like scrooge Mc duck
[13:54] Umae Ying: romney has his money in the cayman islands and switzerland
[13:54] Bejiita Imako: and worse
[13:54] Umae Ying: no taxes on that part of his income
[13:54] herman Bergson: Yes isnt it remarkable Bejiita...!
[13:54] herman Bergson: Amazes me too
[13:54] Bejiita Imako: yes i don't get it
[13:54] Mick Nerido: true Obama is not as bad as Romney for the middle class
[13:54] Bejiita Imako: i mean what do u need that money for if u don't use it for anything
[13:54] herman Bergson: The higher incomes complain about taxes..never the lower ones :-)
[13:55] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) is online.
[13:55] Bejiita Imako: guess its just brawling to the poor ones that they can go f""k themselves i guess
[13:55] Bejiita Imako: thats how they see them
[13:55] Bejiita Imako: really sad that is
[13:55] Bejiita Imako: we have all same value
[13:56] Bejiita Imako: money cant change that
[13:56] Bejiita Imako: like the rich ones think
[13:56] Kime Babenco: If you would earn 100 000 000 US$ a year, and you are not ready to pay 20 % taxes on it... There is a problem... I earn far less, but pay a higher %
[13:56] Mick Nerido: Insurance companies don't agree we all have same value.
[13:56] Gramps Mistwalker is offline.
[13:56] herman Bergson: well...
[13:57] herman Bergson: I am thinking about how to continue my lectures
[13:57] Anske Beattie is offline.
[13:57] Kime Babenco: ;-)
[13:57] herman Bergson: it can go two way....
[13:57] Bejiita Imako: ok
[13:57] herman Bergson: one is the question...why is a human so wicked
[13:58] herman Bergson: or two...how can we stimulate nt to be a selfish person
[13:58] herman Bergson: on the one hand I am thinking of Mary Midgley's book "Wickedness"
[13:59] herman Bergson: and on the other hand I am thinking of Richard D. Pecht's book "The art not to be a selfish person"
[13:59] herman Bergson: art
[14:00] herman Bergson: so..
[14:00] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I think both are interesting lectures
[14:00] herman Bergson: thinking about it...
[14:00] Bejiita Imako: yes
[14:00] herman Bergson: yes Beertje ..that is my problem too ^_^
[14:00] Kime Babenco: I guess so
[14:00] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): so teach them one by one...
[14:00] Mick Nerido: two sides of the same coin
[14:00] herman Bergson: Yes MIck..
[14:01] herman Bergson: Eventually I will Beertje...
[14:01] herman Bergson: is just a matter..which one comes first :-)
[14:01] Kime Babenco: Sure,
[14:01] herman Bergson: I am studying on that :-))
[14:01] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[14:01] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ㋡ use a coin?
[14:01] Mick Nerido: flip a coin?
[14:01] herman Bergson: lol
[14:01] herman Bergson: maybe indeed
[14:01] Bejiita Imako: hehe
[14:01] Umae Ying: which one is the better at defining what is wicked
[14:02] herman Bergson: dont know yet, Umae :-)
[14:02] herman Bergson: Working on it...
[14:02] Bejiita Imako: oki gotta move on
[14:02] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): at least you have a coin..
[14:02] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[14:02] Umae Ying: it would be good to understand what wicked is before you try not to be that
[14:02] Bejiita Imako: cu soon all
[14:02] Roto Diesel is online.
[14:02] herman Bergson: Thursday I want to conclude this series on the Aftermath of neoliberalism...
[14:02] jaynine Scarborough is online.
[14:03] Bejiita Imako: ah
[14:03] herman Bergson: Ohh poor Debbie!
[14:03] Mick Nerido: Iwill miss thursays class ":-(
[14:03] Kime Babenco: Maybe I can not come on Thursday and next week...
[14:03] Debbie Dee (framdor): Oh dear ;(
[14:03] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your participation again....
[14:04] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman:)
[14:04] Debbie Dee (framdor): I missed the whole thing ;)
[14:04] herman Bergson: Next week I take a vacation Kime...so you wont miss much :-)
[14:04] Bejiita Imako: aaaw
[14:04] Kime Babenco: If you can send it to me , would be nice
[14:04] Debbie Dee (framdor): Herman - ill be missing the next 2 weeks - I am off on holiday ;)
[14:04] Bejiita Imako: the blog Debbie?
[14:04] Debbie Dee (framdor): Oh - you to. Cool.
[14:05] herman Bergson: There always is th eblog...
[14:05] Debbie Dee (framdor): The blog it will be. Thanks for being organized Prof ;)
[14:05] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[14:05] Bejiita Imako: always useful as me too is rl busy sometime
[14:05] Kime Babenco: OK,
[14:05] Bejiita Imako: cu thursday
[14:06] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it was very interesting..thank you...have a goodnight
[14:06] Kime Babenco: Bye for now everyone
[14:06] Darks Adria is online.
[14:06] Debbie Dee (framdor): Bye Kime.
[14:06] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye:)
[14:06] Debbie Dee (framdor): By Herman
[14:06] herman Bergson: Bye everyone
[14:06] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...^_^
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