Thursday, September 19, 2019

797: The liberation of women....

Pretty cool....I am from 1949 and 70 now ^_^ and Germaine Greer is from 1939 and 80 now. Total nonsense information of course but I love the numbers.
In 1970 she published "The Female Eunuch" and I was wondering what I recall of that, for the book hit a nerve!
1970 I was just married then and I saw the publicity concerning Germaine Greer, but her message didn't penetrate my skull, I guess.
There was something wrong with the relation between man and woman, was her message apparently,
but that message didn't seem to reach me. Maybe because the kitchen was and still is my domain.....I do the cooking every day and I am not single :-)
When we look at the 20th century and its legacy regarding racism, we only can conclude that we inherited just all the shit. You just need the right president to open the can.
In that respect the 20th century has a much better legacy with respect to women. There are two aspects to this issue:
you can plead for the liberation of women from suppression by men and you can plead for the equality between man and woman in society and you can plead for both, of course.
Germaine Greer is a liberation rather than equality feminist. Her goal is not equality with men, 
which she sees as assimilation and "agreeing to live the lives of unfree men". 
"Women's liberation", she wrote in The Whole Woman (1999), "did not see the female's potential in terms of the male's actual." 
She argues instead that liberation is about asserting difference and "insisting on it as a condition of self-definition and self-determination".
Germaine Greer drew attention by commenting on the missionary position in bed in the magazine "Suck".
She found that women had more control and enjoyment if they were on the man during the intercourse. 
In her book "The Female Eunuch" (1970) she does not completely ignore the economic position of women, but she devotes only one of the 30 chapters to works. 
The book derives its strength from the determined way in which Greer investigates how women, love and marriage are portrayed in both the serious and popular novel and in current beliefs.
She showed how in literature and popular novels men are portrayed as dominant, socially superior and as older, richer and longer than their female partner.
As a Dutchman, I can't leave our own "Germaine Greer' unmentioned. Her name is Anja Meulenbelt, born in 1945, four years older than I, that is 74 :-)
She published "De Schaamte Voorbij" in 1976, translated in English as "The Shame is Over" and also in German, Swedish, Norwegian, Finnish, Danish, Greek, Slovenian, Turkish and Serbian.

"De Schaamte Voorbij" was an inspired book. And more a handbook for a feminist life, based on, as the cover said, "a personal history." 
Anja Meulenbelt wrote 'for other women', to offer recognition, telling them that they were not alone, as she had long thought they were alone. That was evident from her life story.
There were many more female feminist authors with their stories and ideas since 1970 and they achieved something for the 21st century:
the liberation of the woman and a striving for equality between men and women. We're still not there, but it is high on the agenda like you have seen in the #MeToo action.
Thank you for your attention again...
additional info:
The Discussion

[13:17] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman:)
[13:18] herman Bergson: Yet it is sad to see,, that the emancipation of women is just w Western phenomenon....
[13:19] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's not in then US?
[13:19] herman Bergson: The US belongs to the Western culture
[13:19] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ok, sorry
[13:20] herman Bergson: But you might be right nevertheless Beertje ^_^
[13:21] herman Bergson: Nobody has any thoughts about the present state of women emancipation?
[13:21] Al Michigan: yes  i have
[13:21] herman Bergson: Tell us, Al
[13:21] Al Michigan: ok
[13:23] herman Bergson: Keep it short Al
[13:23] Al Michigan: i thought like:  women and men are now at once forced to  find another way of finding value in their live, that is not so easy. the liberation, off the old  is fun , but what do we do the next day? and what about men, they also  need to  find another way to  find a fulfilling  life if it is not fighting for an income for a family
[13:24] CB Axel: I agree.
[13:24] CB Axel: Men need to redefine their roles in a relationship.
[13:24] herman Bergson: Yes....
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:24] Al Michigan: even having one is noiw up to  debate!
[13:24] CB Axel: Women don't need men to protect them and provide for them.
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): more equality
[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): wich is not easy Im suppose for them
[13:25] herman Bergson: Just watch two or thee episodes of "Father Knows Best" will drive you crazy :-)
[13:25] Al Michigan: what you mean?
[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i did see it last week
[13:25] CB Axel: We never actually had that. There was never any guarantee that the man would always be there for us.
[13:26] Al Michigan: what is in the series of this father that knows best?
[13:26] CB Axel: Too often as soon as he got bored and a younger, prettier woman came along he'd abandon his wife.
[13:26] herman Bergson: That idea of the man protecting the woman is so un European.....:-)
[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): never saw it Al?
[13:26] CB Axel: That's why women quit depending on men.
[13:26] Al Michigan: no
[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's on youtube
[13:27] Al Michigan: lemme see
[13:27] herman Bergson: That series started in 1948  and shows the American Dream Family....
[13:28] herman Bergson: I never had the feeling that I should protect my wife...
[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): is that the dream family CB?
[13:28] herman Bergson: She is quite capable of handling situations herself
[13:28] CB Axel: More of a nightmare to me!
[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): smiles
[13:29] CB Axel: I never understood why a woman was supposed to be nothing but a wife and mother.
[13:29] herman Bergson: Yes that family is a nightmare form our perspective
[13:29] CB Axel: Men didn't have to work in whatever job his father did. He could choose any profession he wanted.
[13:29] Al Michigan: these shows are like telling a moral but at the same time they  make a fool off the man to not make it to much off propaganda, and also  times were changing, the man was no longer the  local tyrant in the 50s
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm i saw a bit of it and indeed yes
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): did not want it all though, got to sleepy and forgot about it
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): was late
[13:30] CB Axel: Yet, women were supposed to be wives and mothers whether they had an aptitude for that job or not.
[13:30] Al Michigan: the fathers between the war they were like total tyrants if you ask me
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): chained to the stove
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): :(
[13:30] CB Axel: I would have  been a terrible mother. I don't like children. They're boring.
[13:30] Al Michigan: like between 1918 and 1940
[13:30] CB Axel: But that was the only job I was supposed to do?
[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes Al
[13:31] CB Axel: Fuck that shit (pardon my language).
[13:31] herman Bergson: at least the position of the woman has changed now
[13:31] Al Michigan: but the position of the man as well
[13:32] CB Axel: Yes. We can now have other jobs, but at less pay.
[13:32] herman Bergson: That is what Greer and others did for us
[13:32] Al Michigan: yes men has now to work the same, but for half the money
[13:32] CB Axel: We still can't count on a man sticking around to help with a house and children.
[13:32] herman Bergson: A logical consequence, Al
[13:33] Al Michigan: yeah but the women working work just as hard as a man, and also  get just 50%
[13:33] herman Bergson: Are American men so unreliable, CB? :-)
[13:33] CB Axel: We have a 50% divorce rate.
[13:33] herman Bergson: They get 70%, Al :-)
[13:33] Al Michigan: 70% of what,
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): if u do a work u should get equally paid for that work
[13:34] Al Michigan: incomes halved
[13:34] herman Bergson: Of the male salary
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats the only fair thing
[13:34] herman Bergson: for the same job
[13:34] CB Axel: Herman is right. Women get more than 50% of a man's pay, but not 100%.
[13:34] Al Michigan: sure but if you do  that, both still make just 50% for that money as the job paid before the liberation
[13:34] CB Axel: 70% is about right.
[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): 100% should be payed to the same job'
[13:35] Al Michigan: but a man is always 100 % at his job, right? women have periods!
[13:35] herman Bergson: So there is the issue of liberation and the issue of equality....
[13:35] CB Axel: I worked during my period. What the fuck does that have to do with it?
[13:35] herman Bergson: Equality has not yet been achieved.....liberation...?
[13:36] Al Michigan: some how it seems as iff liberation is tried to achieve by opressing pale men
[13:36] herman Bergson: lol...Al....
[13:36] CB Axel: No. We're not oppressing men. We're just taking back what we should have had all along.
[13:37] Al Michigan: so,... that seems fine to me!
[13:37] herman Bergson: If they use periods as argument they should be oppressed indeed, Al :-)))
[13:37] Al Michigan: but what is all along?
[13:37] Al Michigan: since the 60's?
[13:37] CB Axel: Since men began oppressing women. since forever.
[13:38] Al Michigan: but see, men and women worked together in the past,  they needed the kids, for an old age provision, and men worked their ass off, and so  did women, and together they  fought like hell to get this job done.
[13:39] CB Axel: Back when we lived in caves and physical strength was needed to hunt and protect the home that worked.
[13:39] herman Bergson: true if you mean life as it was 20.000 years ago
[13:39] Max Chatnoir is offline.
[13:39] CB Axel: But we don't need men to protect us any more.
[13:40] Al Michigan: i did not speak about 20.000 years back i  speak about the period between 1500 and 1914
[13:40] CB Axel: Men are just as able to take care of children and cook and clean.
[13:40] CB Axel: Women are just as able to work outside of the home.
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:40] herman Bergson: that was possible in 1500 :-)
[13:40] herman Bergson: and thereafter
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its as usual about power and that men are afraid to loose it
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): macho culture and other shit
[13:41] CB Axel: I think you're right, Bejiita.
[13:41] herman Bergson: Might be true, Bejiita, but why do men cherish that power so much?
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): no idea
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): is it genetic?
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or something else?
[13:42] Al Michigan: maybe it is because cannot have a baby?
[13:42] herman Bergson: Maybe biological....
[13:42] CB Axel: Women don't need men around to do things for us any more. So now men have to be the kind of person we want to have around, not the kind we need to have around.
[13:42] Al Michigan: maybe it s because it is very hard to  work?
[13:43] CB Axel: I work. Yes, it's hard, but it doesn't take a man to do it.
[13:43] Al Michigan: yeah but ppl in the past were fixed with each other,  put together, they didn't choose!!!!!
[13:43] herman Bergson: The difference in physical strength is an issue, indeed
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): in swedish work = jobs and tiring/exhausting = jobbig so
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): maybe a connection there
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:44] Al Michigan: the fysical strength off a man is like a lot in short  time spans, like in minutes or seconds, women's power is like an enduring one, where a man has to stop  and have a sig, a women can go on and on and on.
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): bot some jobs are jobbig for sure
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:44] Al Michigan: in poland women were doing the job of unloading ships.
[13:45] Al Michigan: in my humble opinion, the women was with her babay on her tit, so a man was to  be around and do the fields,  it s more them likely it was the female that went hunting afterwards.
[13:45] Al Michigan: but that s 20,000 years ago
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oki i have to run to attend a rezzparty
[13:46] CB Axel: Bye, Bejiita.
[13:46] herman Bergson: Ok Bejiita...:-)
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu next time
[13:46] herman Bergson: Enjoy
[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye Bejiita'
[13:46] CB Axel: See you Thursday.
[13:46] herman Bergson: Let's conclude with a look at the present situation....
[13:47] herman Bergson: In Western Culture women are getting more and more chances and liberty, to be equal to men in many ways....
[13:47] herman Bergson: the rest of the world still shows a deplorable picture from OUR perspective....
[13:48] Al Michigan: but what will be the motivation off western men to  work as hard as they did in the past?
[13:48] CB Axel: To support themselves.
[13:48] Al Michigan: that all?
[13:49] CB Axel: And maybe they won't work as hard and die young.
[13:49] Al Michigan: that will give no meaning to  life
[13:49] CB Axel: Working yourself to an early grave gives you meaning?
[13:49] Al Michigan: neither will ''earning as much as a man''
[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why should woman earn less money?
[13:50] CB Axel: Work toward being the kind of person a woman wants to be around and not one that makes you think she needs you.
[13:50] herman Bergson: Isn't the question of the meaning of life not quite some other chapter?
[13:50] CB Axel: I would rather be loved than needed.
[13:51] Al Michigan: a man want to be needed, he lives by the responsibility on his shoulders.
[13:51] CB Axel: Then get a dog.
[13:51] Al Michigan: and if there aint some, he has no life.
[13:51] herman Bergson: ^_^
[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): get a cat
[13:51] herman Bergson: Do I want to be needed???????
[13:52] Al Michigan: i dunno....
[13:52] Al Michigan: i want to be needed
[13:52] Al Michigan: if ppl come to  me for help i  feel i have a place between my ppl
[13:52] CB Axel: Wouldn't you rather have a woman with you because she wants to be there rather than because she's afraid she'll die if you're not there?
[13:52] Al Michigan: i have a craft
[13:52] Al Michigan: and ppl call me to   do my things
[13:52] herman Bergson: I want to make myself useful for my fellowmen...they might like it...but that doesn't mean I am needed
[13:52] Al Michigan: and pay me for that
[13:53] Al Michigan: \sure  sure!
[13:53] CB Axel: And a woman can't have that?
[13:53] Al Michigan: that s is also  tru  mr bergman
[13:53] Al Michigan: sure a woman can have the same  shit as man!
[13:53] Al Michigan: but if you want to live like  a man, you have the shit off a man as well
[13:53] CB Axel: And I don't?
[13:53] CB Axel: I worked for over 30 years as a paramedic.
[13:54] herman Bergson: Guess living like a women includes the same shit :-)
[13:54] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): who says we don't have that as well Al?
[13:54] Al Michigan: well  the question for a man is: what do i  do it for! while a woman says! look! i  can do it1
[13:54] CB Axel: I worked long hours getting shit and piss and vomit all over me.
[13:54] Al Michigan: yeah that s work in a hospital!
[13:54] CB Axel: No, it was out on the streets.
[13:55] CB Axel: I carried people up and down stairs. I dragged them out of wreaked cars.
[13:55] Al Michigan: there aree men working in the sewers under the streets
[13:56] herman Bergson: Well, I guess we're all in the same shit then, men and women ^_^
[13:56] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): don't be the victim here Al
[13:56] CB Axel: I worked hard and didn't need some man to help me. But when I went home I wanted someone there I could talk to. Watch a TV show with. Enjoy a nice meal with.
[13:56] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): true CB
[13:56] Al Michigan: how am i a victim?
[13:56] herman Bergson: Yes CB...
[13:57] CB Axel: I didn't want some caveman dragging me by the hair to the kitchen to do what ever he thought I should do.
[13:57] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): a poor man that works very hard..och errum
[13:57] Al Michigan: och erum?
[13:57] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's dutch
[13:57] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): poor you
[13:57] Al Michigan: o ja?
[13:58] Al Michigan: yeah but these poor hardworking men, they will dissappear before you can say ocherum for a second time!
[13:58] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): no
[13:58] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why should they
[13:58] CB Axel: And they will be replaced by hard working women. :)
[13:59] herman Bergson: Ok, my friends. I thin k it is time to end our never ending story here...:-)
[13:59] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): they are not ' poor'..they work hard, same as woman do
[13:59] CONNIE Eichel is offline.
[13:59] herman Bergson: Let me thank you all again for your participation :-)
[13:59] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.
[13:59] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman:)
[13:59] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....
[14:00] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): goodnight:)
[14:00] herman Bergson: But feel free to continue the debate :-)

[14:00] CB Axel: See you all Thursday. :)

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