Thursday, September 27, 2018

735: How scientific was Spengler....?

Relying only on comparisons to prove a point rather than arguing deductively and inductively is called a logical fallacy.
Example: “Education is like cake; a small amount tastes sweet, but eat too much and your teeth will rot out. 
Likewise, more than two years of education is bad for a student.” 
The analogy is only acceptable to the degree to which a reader agrees that education is similar to cake. 
As you can see, faulty analogies are like flimsy wood, and just as no carpenter would build a house out of flimsy wood, 
(see the analogy here too :-) no writer should ever construct an argument out of flimsy material.
An analogy can be quite appealing, but it can not be the base of scientific theories. Let's see what Oswald Spengler thinks about this.
Spengler: "The means whereby to identify dead forms is Mathematical Law. The means whereby to understand living forms is Analogy. 
By these means we are enabled to distinguish polarity and periodicity in the world."
Spengler: "Mathematics and the principle of Causality lead to a naturalistic Chronology 
and the idea of Destiny to a historical ordering of the phenomenal world. 
Both orderings, each on its own account, cover the whole world. The difference is only in the eyes by which and through which this world is realized."
So much on Spengler's scientific method. It is a method of writing about history, but can we call it scientific?
The means whereby to understand living forms is Analogy, is just a creative idea of Spengler.
There is no epistemological or empirical argumentation available to justify this point of view.
Secondly, according to Spengler, there is more than just chains of causes and effects. There is also Destiny which brings order in the phenomenal world.
"The difference is only in the eyes by which and through which this world is realized", which means that there are
more ways of gaining knowledge than the scientific empirical method, based on the analysis of cause and effect.
Any theologian would tell you that, if you ask him how you can get knowledge about god.
"The Decline of the West" is more than a thousand pages. You are free to spend your time on reading it, of course. 
I am done with Spengler and will move on with our project.
Thank you for your attention and feel free to ask questions or give us your opinion....

The Discussion

[13:18] herman Bergson: .
[13:19] herman Bergson: Maybe it all was to condensed for you
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I guess in realith there is no other way, Science is the only real way gaining true knowledge
[13:20] herman Bergson: But the main point is that all stories about cultures by Spengler and his explanations of these cultures are in terms of an analogy with living organisms
[13:20] CB Axel: So, Spengler felt that every culture will eventually decline?
[13:20] herman Bergson: That is what happens to plants CB
[13:20] CB Axel: But he bases it only on the fact that all living things eventually decline?
[13:20] herman Bergson: so he concluded that it also will happen to any culture
[13:21] CB Axel: So he felt that human culture is a living thing?
[13:21] herman Bergson: Yes...
[13:21] CB Axel: I suppose you could look at it that way.
[13:21] herman Bergson: It is an ever changing phenomenon...true....
[13:22] herman Bergson: But a plant emerges blooms and dies....
[13:22] herman Bergson: and there is no argument or proof that human culture behaves the same
[13:22] CB Axel: I've often wondered if the Earth is a living thing and humans are like viruses infecting it.
[13:22] herman Bergson: and the fact that you compare it to a plant doesnt mean a thing...
[13:23] herman Bergson: In a way , as some people assume, we ARE a virus
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well other species adapt themselves to the nature, we adapt the nature after us instead
[13:24] herman Bergson: The fact is that the moment we got self consciousness we moved  from the middle range of the foodchain to the top of the food chain....
[13:24] herman Bergson: That demolished the whole eco-system of this earth
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): plus we often kill and eradicate everything from insects to bigger animals without even being hungry
[13:25] herman Bergson: other animals do that too, Bejiita
[13:25] herman Bergson: just kill for the kill
[13:26] herman Bergson: But to make a point.....
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but not like some of us do i think, many species have gone extinct cause of that and that we destroy things like the rain forest to make money of palm oil and similar things
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): destroying the nature in the process
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nature
[13:27] herman Bergson: Spending time on reading Spengler is a waste of time, unless you like imaginative stories
[13:28] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita, we are good at that and good at fighting and protesting against it
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): luckily many of us are on that side as well
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): realizing what will happen if this continues
[13:29] herman Bergson: Indeed..
[13:29] herman Bergson: But the question here is, is the Western culture in its final stage, if you follow Spengler....
[13:30] herman Bergson: However, he thought that  stage was already reached in 1925
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[13:31] herman Bergson: Is there a new culture rising somewhere?
[13:31] herman Bergson: Why didn't emerge somewhere else another culture?
[13:31] CB Axel: China
[13:32] herman Bergson: No...according to Spengler that culture is over....
[13:32] CB Axel: Not in 1925, but I think maybe China is rising again.
[13:32] herman Bergson: Let me explain....
[13:32] herman Bergson: In Spengler's theory a culture was a living thing.....
[13:32] herman Bergson: it grows...then blooms....and then.....?
[13:33] herman Bergson: it petrifies in what he then called Civilization.....
[13:33] joann (joannovia): i have to leave sorry..bye all
[13:33] herman Bergson: Bye Joan...see you around
[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): tot ziens Joann
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): bye Joan
[13:33] joann (joannovia): tot gauw
[13:33] joann (joannovia): daag
[13:34] herman Bergson: This civilization is some kind of solid state of a culture....
[13:34] herman Bergson: no new grows etc....can last forever
[13:35] CB Axel: So it can't rise from its ashes like a phoenix?
[13:35] herman Bergson: So if you say China....according to Spengler that would be a civilization now....not a culture anymore
[13:35] CB Axel: Ah.
[13:36] herman Bergson: Here you see the problem with using analogies to  explain just doesn't work
[13:36] CB Axel: Some plants are perennials and come back year after year.
[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what do you call a culture Herman?
[13:36] FrannyDJ Dean is offline.
[13:36] CB Axel: Not only did Spengler not understand human cultures, but he didn't know much about plants, either.
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well culture and civilisation are not really the same thing, to me culture is the language, art and other things characterizing this particular civilization, different dances, traditions ect
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats culture to me
[13:38] herman Bergson: According to Spengler there were three stages...
[13:38] herman Bergson: 1    Peasantry: The world of peasantry which is pre-Cultural and lived in the countryside. It is also outside “high” culture
[13:38] herman Bergson: 2    Culture: The period of Culture which grows and develops in the town and city.
[13:39] herman Bergson: So the agricultural situation became overwhelmed by the rise of cities..
[13:40] herman Bergson: 3    Civilization: Each Culture begins to stagnate and die within the mega-city (megopolis) which is a phenomenon of Civilization.
[13:40] roos Gartner is offline.
[13:41] herman Bergson: So the mega cities like Paris and New York or London are the proof of this stagnation...
[13:41] herman Bergson: That is how Spengler saw things...
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): dont see any sign of france or US going away anyway soon
[13:41] FrannyDJ Dean is online.
[13:42] herman Bergson: Neither do I Bejiita :-)
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so indeed Spengler seems to have missed some things here and there in his comparisons
[13:42] herman Bergson: Only the US is fading....:-)
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but thats because of Trump
[13:42] herman Bergson: As Trump said today...I don't believe in globalization....we choose for the UN Assembly
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i saw now he tiumphed and boasted about that he had accomplished more things then any other ever
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i just UUUUUUUAAAAAHHH
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): he maybe have spead more shit then any president ver
[13:43] CB Axel: He has a different view of what's patriotic than I do.
[13:43] herman Bergson: Bejiita....just watch this....Trump sais a lot of things to which he adds....."in history....
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): he is only interested in whats gaining him
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): what he makes money from
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nothing else
[13:44] herman Bergson: My government achieved more than any other in history.....which made the Assembly people laugh....
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): even if he so would start WW3 in the process
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as long he would make money from it
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): he is scary
[13:44] herman Bergson: Then he said...
[13:45] herman Bergson: Ohh I didnt expect that reaction...but that is ok....
[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol
[13:45] CB Axel: I was so glad they laughed at him.
[13:45] CB Axel: He hates being laughed at.
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hat else would he expect
[13:45] herman Bergson: the man didn't even feel embarresed....
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or does he realy think he make so many good things
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as i said before he should have been locked up in an asylum long before he got a chance to enter white house
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and throw away the key to his cell.
[13:46] CB Axel: I'm sure he'll tweet something incredibly stupid tonight.
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): me too
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): boasting about how good he is
[13:46] herman Bergson: slow down Bejiita...
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): UUUUGHH BLAAAAAH!
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well well well see wht happens
[13:47] herman Bergson: please :-)
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and ww3 have not begun yet
[13:47] CB Axel: Easy, Bejiita. You're going to give yourself a heart attack.
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:47] herman Bergson: Yes CB, my concern too
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but I just dont get Trump
[13:47] herman Bergson: You don't need to Bejiita....
[13:48] CB Axel: I actually do get him. I don't get the people who voted for him and still think he's the best thing to come along ever.
[13:48] herman Bergson: So if Spengler is right with his theory....maybe it applies to America....
[13:48] herman Bergson: Well CB...there was a poll....
[13:49] herman Bergson: They asked people..when Trumps says something, do you believe him....
[13:49] herman Bergson: They asked Reps by the way....93% said YESA
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): shudders
[13:49] herman Bergson: Second question...
[13:50] herman Bergson: When a relative says the you believe that relative....
[13:50] herman Bergson: 63% said YES
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): eeeh
[13:50] CB Axel: I heard about that poll, too.
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[13:50] herman Bergson: Too weird....
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): very
[13:50] CB Axel: They want desperately to believe that Trump will make their lives better.
[13:51] herman Bergson: Yes...Trump is the King of the White losers in the US
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): eve when its obvious he is just talking BS
[13:51] CB Axel: They want it so desperately that they'll believe him even when there is proof that they shouldn't.
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): must be that
[13:51] CB Axel: He is their great white hope.
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they dont want to realize they have voted for the wrong guy
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that they had wrog
[13:52] CB Axel: They can't accept that white men are no longer control of everything.
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): confirmation bias i think its called
[13:52] CB Axel: *in control
[13:52] herman Bergson: Indeed CB......that 8 years with a black president hit them hard...very hard
[13:53] CB Axel: I wonder what they would have done if Obama had been followed by a woman president.
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): what difference does skin color make in making good decisions
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nothing
[13:53] herman Bergson: Yes....more disaster, CB
[13:54] CB Axel: I don't think (I'd have to do a search of US demographics through the years) that white men have ever been a majority of people in the US.
[13:54] herman Bergson: With all weapons around in the US...Trump could even cause a new civil war.....
[13:54] CB Axel: They've been the majority of voters, but only because they made the laws that said who could vote.
[13:55] CB Axel: I've wondered about that, Herman.
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or in worst case WW3, maybe even a global nuclear war = armageddon, end of all civilizations and life on the entire planet
[13:55] herman Bergson: too
[13:55] CB Axel: Some Californians are already talking about succeeding.
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but i really hope this is never gonna be even a slight risk
[13:55] CB Axel: Seceding. Sorry
[13:55] herman Bergson: Yes I know
[13:55] CB Axel: Forming their own country.
[13:56] CB Axel: I've thought for years that we should give Texas back to Mexico. °͜°
[13:56] herman Bergson: oh my....
[13:56] herman Bergson: You really think they love to joins the spics
[13:56] CB Axel: No, but I'd be glad to be shot of them.
[13:57] CB Axel: Most of them, anyway. I know a couple Texans I like. °͜°
[13:57] herman Bergson smiles
[13:57] herman Bergson: Yes there are always good guys and bad guys...everywhere :-)
[13:57] CB Axel: Texans love to brag that they're the most patriotic Americans but they have one of the lowest voting rates of all the states.
[13:58] herman Bergson: Funny Rednecks :-)
[13:58] CB Axel: They think patriotism is waving flags, having parades and cookouts, and blowing things up on holidays.
[13:58] CB Axel: Oh, and owning guns.
[13:58] CB Axel: That's not my view of patriotism.
[13:58] herman Bergson: and be white supremacists
[13:59] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:59] CB Axel: I guess. Only whites can be patriots.
[13:59] herman Bergson: Indeed CB....
[13:59] herman Bergson: Well to conclude this session.....
[14:00] herman Bergson: go to the next URL and check out the Youtube like in the caption....CB does already know it :-))
[14:00] herman Bergson:
[14:00] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oki
[14:00] herman Bergson: Thank you for your participation again....class dismissed

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