Saturday, September 8, 2018

730: On whose Shoulders are we standing... ?

Good to see you all again after, I hope, an enjoyable and pleasant vacation.
I think, that it is not a bad thing to refresh our memory and have an other look at the present theme of our project.
What was it that kept us busy before we went on vacation. Ok, it was the 20th century. And we are wondering on whose shoulders we are standing.
Why seems that 20th century to be so special? Maybe you remember the main thought: speed of change.
When we look at the evolutionary history of man, we see that changes first took millions of years, 
then ten thousands of years, then centuries. And in our time serious changes take place within decades or even less.
The remarkable thing about the 20th century is not only that the stream of discoveries became a deluge, 

but also that so many fundamental discoveries have been made in many fields

like physics, cosmology, chemistry, geology, medicine, biology, paleontology, archeology and psychology. 

It also belongs to the striking historical coincidences that most of them, like the electron, the gene, the quantum and the subconscious, were done in or around 1900.

It looks like, that we learned more in one century than in all preceding centuries together and the pivot of it all is science.
What makes the 20th century differ from previous centuries is in the first place, 

that until well over a hundred years ago, science consisted of highly disparate disciplines and did not deal with elementary issues. 

Fundamental research developed since 1900 in many fields of science 

and more important there grew cohesion and unity in the scientific narrative about nature.

As we shall see, this narrative tells both about the evolution of the universe and the earth itself with its continents and oceans, 

about the evolution of life and about the distribution of the human species over the planet, about the different races with their various civilizations. 
And in less than a 50 years our world has changed into a universe of communication, information and big data.
In this project our focus in not primarily on the atrocities, wars, terrorism and crises of the 20th century
but on the intellectual and cultural developments, which have been the roots of our way of looking at our life and world today,
so that we might better understand the past and maybe our future too.
I wish you all a Happy New Year. Thank you for your attention.... 

The Discussion
[13:21] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:21] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Happy new year
[13:21] herman Bergson: So we are back  in business again. I'd say :-))
[13:22] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): brb
[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Thinks the speed of change in sources of communication might also change the philosophical views in different ways we don't even see yet
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes
[13:22] CB Axel: I wonder if some of the speed of change is just because the population is so much larger.
[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but maybe the generation now growing up in it for the first time wil define it
[13:23] herman Bergson: There is already a huge cultural exchange going on.....
[13:23] CB Axel: There are more people to think about new things.
[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:23] herman Bergson: and to spread the new ideas too
[13:23] herman Bergson: But we also see clashing cultures due to this situation....
[13:24] CB Axel: Also, the time saving inventions like cars and clothes washers and stoves, etc give people more time to work on things other than hunting and gathering food.
[13:24] CB Axel: Etc
[13:24] herman Bergson: We still have to deal with the predictions of Huntington.....
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Internet makes fast global and free communication possible as well
[13:24] herman Bergson: Yes indeed CB....ti gives room to emancipation....
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): free except for the ISP fee
[13:25] CB Axel: The internet has certainly made a huge difference.
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): back
[13:25] CB Axel: Scientists from all over the world can share ideas.
[13:25] CB Axel: wb, Beertje
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and without it we would not have SL either
[13:25] herman Bergson: I really wonder what the real consequences are of the Internet for our world
[13:26] CB Axel: Like most things, the internet has good and bad consequences.
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right that is mainly what i meant
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:26] herman Bergson: Think of cyber warfare....influencing democratic elllections....destroying social systems
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): with my first comment
[13:26] Hope (naskiff): A big channel that everyone cares about to keep it clean, but so easy to poison.
[13:26] herman Bergson: Indeed Hope
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed its easy to spread lot of goop through it
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): true
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): viruses, DDOS attacks, spam ect
[13:27] herman Bergson: But it also has Wikipedia...access to a huge plethora of knowledge...etc
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and general bulshit talk and hate as well
[13:27] CB Axel: If you can trust what you read on Wikipedia
[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): but also access to beautiful art
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): internet is just a data transfer system, it is not selective and we dont want it to be cause that would mean doing like china and censor it completley
[13:28] herman Bergson: It is like with everything man invents, it seems....
[13:28] CB Axel: Right, Bejiita.
[[13:28] herman Bergson: Man invented a hamer....
[13:28] herman Bergson: you can use it on nails....but also on the head of your neighbor
[13:28] CB Axel: Each individual needs to learn how to filter what they read online.
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hammer can be both a tool and weapon, same with knoves and even power tools
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): knives
[13:29] herman Bergson: or atoms :-)
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they are also not selective, its what the user do with it that matter
[13:29] CB Axel: Guns are the only thing I can think of that's used only for killing.
[13:29] herman Bergson: So, I guess the world debate should be on ethics primarily
[13:30] herman Bergson: No no can use them for hunting tooo :-)
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i use guns for fun only though (shoot clay pigeons with some frieds at work sometimes)
[13:30] herman Bergson: or sports
[13:30] CB Axel: Hunting is killing.
[13:30] Hope (naskiff): Guns are also used for the -threat- of killing
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:30] CB Axel: But I'll give you sports. They can be used just for target practice.
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): primary use for weapon is to kill others indeed
[13:30] herman Bergson: Still I think, I guess the world debate should be on ethics primarily
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aa yes its great fun to make a little noise now ant then
[13:30] Hope (naskiff): If someone attacks you and you have a good weapon, you won't need to use it at all to be left alone.
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well not originally bejita
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): friday salute
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): BLAM BLAM
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hunting
[13:31] herman Bergson: we should be in a permanent moral debate with each other
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): im getting kid of good at it now these clay pigeons i can say, its not too often we do it but has at least been 2 times this summer
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:32] CB Axel: Morals are tricky. What's moral to one person is immoral to another.
[13:32] herman Bergson: Did you notice what I suggested?
[13:32] herman Bergson: Yes CB....
[13:32] Hope (naskiff): It was vague for me.  Do you have examples of moral debates? ^^
[13:32] herman Bergson: And that is caused by what people believe....
[13:33] herman Bergson: Yes Hope....
[13:33] herman Bergson: the president of the US was called AMORAL today
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well he if anyone is
[13:33] herman Bergson: An other example is the problem of religious believes
[13:33] Hope (naskiff): Are you saying that, gasp, the news said something bad about the president?  I'm shocked.
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:34] CB Axel: Fake news. So sad.
[13:34] herman Bergson: Muslims like to kill non muslims.....christians prefer not to kill others
[13:34] Hope (naskiff): There are so many things about Muslims that the rest of us generally disagree with, it's not even just about killings
[13:34] CB Axel: Christians say they prefer not to kill others.
[13:35] herman Bergson: The news just quoted some report, which was published in the NewYork Times
[13:35] CB Axel: Yes, Hope, but things about Muslims that I don't like I can usually say about Christians, too.
[13:35] herman Bergson: Indeed Hope....
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ture
[13:35] CB Axel: Religious canon law is religious canon law.
[13:35] Hope (naskiff): I'm curious of what you have in mind
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): true even
[13:35] herman Bergson: So...the moral debate on this world still has a long way to go....
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess
[13:36] herman Bergson: We have to find out in what story all mankind is willing to believe sothat everyone can live in peace together
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): wait til the moral debate on space really gets going
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): space control or not
[13:37] Hope (naskiff): I don't completely agree, Herman
[13:37] herman Bergson: We already had such a debate on the ownership of the North and South Pole, Gemma
[13:37] Hope (naskiff): I think we don't need to find what we should all believe in...  I think we all need to let some things go and agree that we will never know, and that it's ok to not know.
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep
[13:37] CB Axel: I can agree with that, Hope.
[13:38] CB Axel: I just don't think it will happen.
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i think it is partly true Hope
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but
[13:38] herman Bergson: But the conviction that we can not know certain things is also a belief.....which you accept or do not accept
[13:38] CB Axel: There are too many people who will try to get ahead by exploiting people's beliefs.
[13:39] Hope (naskiff): Ha, that seems like a fair point Herman. ^^
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:39] herman Bergson: The idea that we should have/believe in a narrative about existence
[13:39] Hope (naskiff): And yes, people want to believe  in something and others want to use that...  I think it will take a long time for people as a whole to let go of this need to trust in a source for "the truth".
[13:40] herman Bergson: which is shared by all Yuval Noah Harari's book
[13:40] herman Bergson: Sapiens, A brief history of Humankind
[13:41] herman Bergson: I agree with you Hope, that knowledge has its limits....
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess
[13:41] herman Bergson: Our knowledge is also only just one narrative about reality....
[13:42] herman Bergson: and these days the scientific narrative is gaining territory...
[13:42] herman Bergson: which conflicts with religions
[13:42] herman Bergson: Still a long way to go
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): for me science is as good as =  truth cause here we have possibility to proove that something is really a certai way
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): wich you cant with say religion believing in things like magic and supernatural things
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): impossible to  prove
[13:43] herman Bergson: We agree on that Bejiita.....BUT...
[13:43] Hope (naskiff): Science is a bit in an unfortunate spot.  Those who try to make progress for science try to move it forward, but those who read the papers don't have first hand experience and need to doubt or have faith in what they've read and the competence and ethics of the scientists.
[13:43] herman Bergson: this presupposes ONE way of gaining knowledge....
[13:44] herman Bergson: Yes Hope....
[13:44] herman Bergson: If you ask an audience....
[13:44] herman Bergson: Is the scientific method THE method to achieve certain knowledge...?
[13:45] herman Bergson: Daniel Dennett did ask his audience....
[13:45] Hope (naskiff): It's certainly a good one, when it's respected. ^^
[13:45] herman Bergson: Don't expect a 100% YES from the audience....
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): have i seen a ghost, or god. no, have i seen the higgs boson? YEs
[13:46] herman Bergson: To give you an alternative source of often used....FEMALE INTUITION ^_^
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ad those who claimed they have ssen ghosts or god have probably dreamt it
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but thats me
[13:46] herman Bergson: People  believe that you can know things for certain  based on intuition....
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:47] Hope (naskiff): It's obviously dangerous to have faith in these things as well
[13:48] herman Bergson: But that is because you believe in another method of achieving knowledge, Hope
[13:48] Hope (naskiff): Mmmm...  in my case, it's more that I'm skeptical about everything.
[13:48] herman Bergson: Some use astrology
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): horoscopes
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): tarot
[13:48] herman Bergson: Yes....or tarot cards
[13:49] herman Bergson: or tealeaves :-))
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): strangely my horoscope usually match whats going on during the day, the issu is every paper ect have a different one
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): no probably just lucky matching
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ha
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): same with fortune cookies
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh goodness
[13:49] herman Bergson: I guess you live multiple lives Bejiita :-))
[13:50] herman Bergson: To match all your newspaper horoscopes
[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and he doubts thousands of years of religion !!!!!!!
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i remembered after a day of dance battles when we wehtn to eat at a place after my cookie read " you reach everything you have wanted"
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well i did for sure that day
[13:50] CB Axel: Here's a cute cartoon of the scientific method...
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:50] Hope (naskiff): I think this is all a dangerous train of thought...  you seem to be arguing that, at least science is better than tarot cards...  I think this isn't a good point of view.  Nothing deserves that you give it faith.  Science is better, but you still need to maintain a healthy doubt because of all the variables.
[13:51] herman Bergson: I'll put it on the wall here CB
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): likes that cb
[13:51] Hope (naskiff): That's pretty awesome. ^^
[13:51] CB Axel: I'm a firm believer in cookies.
[13:52] CB Axel: Not the fortunes in them. Just the cookies. °͜°
[13:52] herman Bergson: Yes Hope, that is a common argument against science....we can not know everything by science.....
[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:52] herman Bergson: But the next step in the argument is WHAT?
[13:52] herman Bergson: that we have other faculties that produce knowledge?
[13:53] CB Axel: The good thing about science is, that when we learn something new we change our beliefs. Religion doesn't allow that.
[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): maybe
[13:53] herman Bergson: or ..that we simply have to say...just STOP...WE DO NOT KNOW....
[13:53] CB Axel: For the most part, religion doesn't allow change.
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true
[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what is knowledge?
[13:53] Hope (naskiff): My argument isn't so much that we can't know everything by science.  It's that scientists need to be paid, they need to publish papers that will be seen as interesting, they are sometimes willing to perform tests with as few as 2! test subjects, or ignore the scientific method.  Then in some cases there is also consensus science, which should not exist.
[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): probably maybe
[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what does it really mean?
[13:54] CB Axel: Hope, that's why peer review is so important.
[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i have to go get ready to host a fishing contest now
[13:54] herman Bergson: I know what you are pointing at Hope....
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oki
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu Gemma
[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and bye for now
[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:55] herman Bergson: a lot of replication researches in social sciences produce contraditing results with the original research...
[13:55] herman Bergson: so here is room for debate....
[13:55] Hope (naskiff): Peer review is important, and it has been pushed aside for a few reasons...  and they seem to be trying to make  it a viable way to spend time again, but it will never be perfect.  Scientists are people too and they need money, and free time.
[13:55] CB Axel: Unfortunately, too many people look at an original paper and don't check back to see if the research has been duplicated.
[13:55] herman Bergson: and to answer your question Beertje.....
[13:55] herman Bergson: yes CB....
[13:56] CB Axel: True, Hope. That's why we all have to remain skeptical and demand peer review.
[13:56] herman Bergson: You could say that knowledge is a set of statements which are intersubjectively accepted based on their testable quality
[13:56] Hope (naskiff): There seem to be a lot of journals that don't publish duplication tests because those are uninteresting. So people are encouraged to test new theories instead.
[13:57] herman Bergson: Oh yes , Hope, so true.....a serious problem these days....
[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): you don't know what is fake or true sometimes thats a problem
[13:57] herman Bergson: and there is a serious debate going on about it in the world of science
[13:58] CB Axel: If those journals do that because they're afraid to lose readers, then we, as the readers, need to make sure they know they'll lose us if they don't publish duplication tests.
[13:58] Hope (naskiff): It's a great thing that it's a conversation taking place now at least
[13:58] herman Bergson: I agree, Hope
[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:59] herman Bergson: A lot of so-called scientific facts in psychology and economy have been falsified....
[13:59] Hope (naskiff) nods.
[13:59] herman Bergson: So there is hope.... :-)
[14:00] Hope (naskiff): ^^
[14:00] Hope (naskiff): There is
[14:00] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i hope so
[14:00] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[14:00] herman Bergson: There is a growth of knowledge
[14:00] herman Bergson: I said at the start of our discussion...we are back in business...
[14:00] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): YAY! (yay!)
[14:00] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your great participation again....
[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oki cu around
[14:01] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....
[14:01] Hope (naskiff): That was fun. :)
[14:01] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[14:01] CB Axel: Good discussion. Thank you, Herman and everyone. °͜°
[14:01] herman Bergson: Thank you, Hope
[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): time to attend another event with well suitingly enough, back to school theme
[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[[14:01] Hope (naskiff): Thank you all~
[14:01] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i have to go now...see you all soon and goodnight
[14:01] herman Bergson: Tell your friends and invite them too
[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu next time
[14:01] CB Axel: See you all Thursday.
[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[14:01] herman Bergson: Bye Beertje]
[14:01] CB Axel: Oops. Tuesday.

[14:02] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye bye

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