Wednesday, September 19, 2018

733: Spengler's influence on our reality of today.....

In a recent interview Aleksandr Gelyevich Dugin, a Russian philosopher, political analyst, and strategist known for his fascist views, with close ties with the Kremlin,
said, that every folk/people has its own culture and thence also has its own truth. 
When you talk about cultural values, this can make sense to some extend, but he meant more.
The British police has identified two Russian agents as suspects in the poison attack in Salisbury, UK. The Russians deny it
and a man like Dugin will justify this with the observation, that you have Western truth and you have Russian truth.
A show of absolute relativism. There is no absolute truth. There is only your own truth or the truth within your culture.
This is inline with the philosophy, that emerged in the 1970s: Post-Modernism.
Postmodernist philosophers in general argue that truth is always contingent on historical and social context rather 
than being absolute and universal and that truth is always partial and "at issue" rather than being complete and certain.
An other good quote and believe me, this so called post-modernism has colored the end of the previous century.
In their book "The New Tolerance" (1998) Josh McDowell and Bob Hostetler offer the following definition of postmodernism:
"A worldview characterized by the belief that truth doesn't exist in any objective sense but is created rather than discovered. ... 
[Truth is] created by the specific culture and exists only in that culture. 
Therefore, any system or statement that tries to communicate truth is a power play, an effort to dominate other cultures."
Dugin, Post-modernists, they are all indebted to Oswald Spengler and "The Decline of the West"
Remember, that volume One was written before World War One, but it paved the road for what we now are experiencing.
There are no facts anymore, there always are alternative facts. 
We have a world leader who demonstrably has lied more than 4000 times until now
And I heard a sane, well educated  person on TV defend the liar, when confronted with a flagrant lie of the world leader,
with the argument.....Well, he is entitled to his own opinion.
On whose shoulders are we standing, when we look at the 20th century?    

One pair of shoulders seem to be those of Oswald Spengler.
Previous lecture I promised you to dig into Spengler today, but there is happing and thence to tell so much today 
that I had to move the lecture on "The Decline of the West" itself to next time.
Thank you for your attention....

The Discussion

[13:13] CB Axel: Thank you.
[13:13] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): :)7
[13:13] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman
[13:13] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[13:13] herman Bergson: Feel free to add your comments....:-)
[13:13] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well, whose truth is the correct one, with russia their denial sounded just like another typical Russian coverup to protect their pride
[13:14] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or other words untrue
[13:14] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but indeed, what is the real truth, is there any?
[13:14] herman Bergson: I'd say Yes, Bejiita...
[13:14] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): there have to be only what really is is true
[13:14] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): everything else is false
[13:14] herman Bergson: Keep in mind that this post modernist stand is selfcontradictory....
[13:15] herman Bergson: They say....there is NO ABSOLUTE truth.......
[13:15] herman Bergson: However,,,,this can only be true when this statement is an absolute truth...
[13:15] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)
[13:15] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaah
[13:15] herman Bergson: a universal truth
[13:15] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i think i get it
[13:16] herman Bergson: So...are there real facts?
[13:16] herman Bergson: Yes....
[13:16] herman Bergson: is there undeniable truth....universal truth ...yes....
[13:16] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): seems logical
[13:16] herman Bergson: just go to any hospital and look what...all over the world...physicians do...
[13:17] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as said only what really is can be true
[13:17] herman Bergson: Yes...but you can destabilize a world by questioning that...
[13:18] CB Axel: If nothing is true then it must be true that that statement is false.
[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well yes
[13:18] herman Bergson: There is a tendency to question the truths of science, the fact finding of journalists....
[13:18] herman Bergson: Yes CB, which  cannot be true :-)
[13:19] Hope (naskiff): You assume what is questioned is a truth, are you sure it's not just a theory?
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like one day they say eating eggs give u cancer and the next day they say eat a many eggs u want its good for your health
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i believe the later one
[13:19] Lente (lentelies.anatine) is offline.
[13:19] herman Bergson: In what sense a theory, Hope?
[13:20] Hope (naskiff): For example, the usual dogma used to be that you should not eat fat, because you are what you eat, and lots of scientists know that fat is bad for you.
[13:20] Hope (naskiff): Would you dare question science, or should we shut up and nod?
[13:20] Hope (naskiff): It was a truth back then, wasn't it?
[13:21] herman Bergson: What we eat and its consequences is a complex thing.....
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:21] CB Axel: We should all question science because that's what science is. It's questioning.
[13:21] Hope (naskiff): It is!  In this case, whatever science thinks about such a complex matter, we should probable question it, always. ^^
[13:21] herman Bergson: it is a truth when you assume the premiss that people get sick because of overweight...
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they say cholesterol is bad but ow we know that there is a good and a bad type, still some claim just Cholesterol is BAD
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): not ALL of it
[13:21] CB Axel: Part of the problem, as I see it, is the way scientific studies are reported in the news.
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its blown up
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): to sell more papers
[13:22] herman Bergson: That is a serious problem indeed CB....
[13:22] CB Axel: If one study comes out saying that the subjects of that study had a bad outcome from eating fat, the news media blurt out that obviously fat is bad for us.
[13:22] herman Bergson: And I can tell you why....
[13:22] CB Axel: They don't look at who funded the study.
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that ALL fat is bad
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true CB
[13:23] herman Bergson: and already Spengler wrote it!
[13:23] CB Axel: They don't wait to see if that study gets replicated.
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as said they just want to sell more papers by giving people health panic
[13:23] herman Bergson: exactly....
[13:23] CB Axel: They just read the summary of the study and don't look at its methodology or anything.
[13:23] herman Bergson: Spengler already stated that science was about money
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and the result is eating disorder and anorexia
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and other health problems
[13:24] Hope (naskiff): Supposedly the guy who pushed the "fat is bad" idea was someone who had a huge pile of "evidence" to back up his claim, lots of studies and such. Anyone who would dispute him would look like a fool and possibly risk their career.
[13:24] CB Axel: If the reporters reporting one science don't understand science, they don't know what they're talking about.
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but as long they get a good sounding story they dont care
[13:24] CB Axel: Yes, Hope, but his study still had to be replicated by others.
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as long they make money from it
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): from
[13:25] herman Bergson: and the term "BAD" is questionable.....
[13:25] herman Bergson: biased to some extend for instance
[13:25] CB Axel nods
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:25] Hope (naskiff): I don't know, somehow even thought it should have been replicated, this myth lasted for a long time.
[13:26] herman Bergson: it is our culture that does not accept that we die younger because of consuming too much fat....
[13:26] herman Bergson: it is not nature we just die one day or another...
[13:26] herman Bergson: there is no value judgement like....too early.....
[13:26] CB Axel: I'd rather die young eating food I like than live forever eating foods I hate.
[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's the fat against the sugar industry
[13:27] herman Bergson: Me too CB...:-)
[13:27] CB Axel: Both in moderation, Beertje. °͜°
[13:27] herman Bergson: Bet MeToo ever :-))
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:27] herman Bergson: Best
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:27] Hope (naskiff): I think you can use different scopes.  You can question whether eating fat is bad, or whether eating fat is bad for your health.
13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its how much fat and what fat, there are different ones
[13:28] Hope (naskiff): I think the argument was that it's bad for your health...  and it was very untrue
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): saturated fats are in general less healthy
[13:28] Hope (naskiff): That's a possiblity, not a certainty, Bejiita. ^^
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and synthetic trans fats are poison for sure, clog the veins like old lube grease
[13:28] herman Bergson: Ok we can have a fat discussion about this issue...
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its those we need to stay away fropm
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): not all fats
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hahahah
[13:29] herman Bergson: but what I want you to know is that you find this kind of discussion already in 1914
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (brings out my grease gun and aims ar Herman)
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): MUHAAHHA
[13:29] herman Bergson: that is resounds in post modern philosophies...
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[13:30] herman Bergson: That seemed we inherited it from the 20th century
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[13:30] herman Bergson: One interesting observation.....
[13:30] Hope (naskiff): About the truths, I think we have universal truths...  if I throw a rock and say I've just thrown a rock, that's a truth.  But most people seem to have a looser standard for what is truth.
[13:30] CB Axel: I bet this kind of discussion took place before 1914. I'm sure there were arguments like this when Copernicus said the Earth revolves around the Sun.
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I see  my friend is approaching, need to head out now and meet him
[13:31] herman Bergson: Neither the Stanford Encyclopedia nor the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy have an article  on Spengler
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[13:31] CB Axel: Have fun, Bejiita!
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why is that Herman?
[13:32] Hope (naskiff): Take care Bejiita. :)
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu around
[13:32] herman Bergson: Because Spengler isn't regarded to be a serious philosopher
[13:32] herman Bergson: I guess
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm ok¨
[13:32] bergfrau Apfelbaum: have fun playing! and good luck :-)
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu
[13:32] herman Bergson: Good Luck Bejiita!
[13:33] Ciska Riverstone: enjoy bejiita
[13:33] Hope (naskiff): I agree with CB that is was probably a topic for much longer than this, and it's just not attributed to anyone
[13:33] herman Bergson: And that rock throwing of yours, Hope.....they would argue that tat is just scientific knowledge....only true in the realm of science
[13:34] herman Bergson: a post modernist would probably respond to you like that
[13:35] CB Axel: Not if you hit him in the head with that rock.
[13:35] Hope (naskiff): Okay... ^^  I never heard "only true in the realm of science" before...
[13:35] herman Bergson: The big question The Decline of the West a serious treatise of bogus.....
[13:36] Hope (naskiff): Your idea of decline of the West seems much different from what I'm used to.
[13:36] Hope (naskiff): I would think the danger of a decline has more to do with the weaknening of the western population.
[13:36] herman Bergson: Well...a lot of people find it a work of a genius...
[13:37] Hope (naskiff): I don't really put much stock in consensus in general.
[13:37] herman Bergson: The more I study on it the more I like to question this view
[13:37] Hope (naskiff): So what is the decline of the West to you?
[13:38] herman Bergson: I'll save that for the next lecture Hope ^_^
[13:38] Hope (naskiff): aw...
[13:38] Hope (naskiff): I hope it's about more things than just Trump. :P  He has more important things to do than being truthful all the time.
[13:39] herman Bergson: Guess it is a nice moment to end this discussion with this clif hanger ^_^
[13:39] CB Axel: Those golf balls won't hit themselves.
[13:39] herman Bergson: It wont be about Mr. Trump at all , Hope...I promise :-)
[13:39] CB Axel: Yay!
[13:39] Hope (naskiff): Sure. :P  The economy also won't get better by itself.
[13:40] CB Axel: He doesn't care about the nation's economy. He only cares about his personal wealth.
[13:40] herman Bergson: Well...thank you all again for your participation....:-)
[13:40] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ty Herman and Class! very interesting
[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman
[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[13:40] Hope (naskiff): If he gets richer by making the country richer and giving Blacks and Latinos the lowest unemployment rate in a long time, that's a win-win. ^^
[13:40] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....
[13:40] herman Bergson: But feel free to continue the discussion :-)
[13:41] CB Axel: Thank you, everyone. See you Thursday.
[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: have a  good one

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