Wednesday, May 29, 2019

786: Mind is matter.........

Because we are right in the middle of it, we hardly realize that our explanation of who and what we are, has changed more in the past hundred years than in all centuries before.
The 20th century is in that sense an essential moment in our history. Freud created a new interpretation, which was questioned in the 1950s and thereafter.
There was another thing that undermined the traditional concept of the mind in the 1950s: the development of drugs that affected brain functioning. 
ln the course of the century, more and more 'mental illnesses' appeared to have a physical cause. 
All of these could be explained biochemically or physiologically and, more importantly, combated with medication. 
Until about 1950 there was no known physical origin for major mental illnesses, such as schizophrenia and manic-depressive psychoses.    

But in the early 1950s, even these diseases began to come within the reach of science.
There was the research into nerve cells and the substances that play a role in the transmission of nerve impulses from one nerve cell to another, to the isolation of specific substances. 
The manipulation of these substances could perhaps form a treatment method because the transfer between nerve cells could be accelerated or blocked.
Sedatives and antidepressants have been developed based on substances that ensure communication between brain cells.
All these substances reinforced the idea that the 'mind' could be influenced by substances. 
Numerous sedatives and antidepressants were developed in the 1950s and 1960s. 
Not all substances worked in all patients and they all had side effects. On of the most dangerous is addiction to the medicine, of course.
But whatever shortcomings they have helped and despite the difficulties and issues that remain, 
these two types of medicine still relieve an enormous amount of suffering and give inspiration for thoughts about human nature. 
They show that psychological moods are the result of a chemical state in the brain, seriously undermining the traditional metaphysical concept of the mind.
And exactly this already bothered me when I was a student. Descartes had invented his dualism and was troubled by this issue too.
What is the relation and possible interaction between mind and body. Descartes did even anatomical research on brains of dead people. He didn't really find an answer.
Although we might take the use and effects of psych-pharmacy for granted, it still leaves use with this peculiar observation.
We know there is a relation between the physical brain and our consciousness, but how this consciousness comes into being, we don't know.
Nevertheless there are all those pills, but a good whiskey does the same, that influence and can change our consciousness, our mind.
It has always puzzled me, the way that matter can affect the mind and it still does.
Thank you for your attention...

The Discussion

[13:18] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): proost
[13:18] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)
[13:18] herman Bergson whispers: Cheers! :-)
[13:18] CB Axel: :)
[13:19] herman Bergson: It is really my biggest  question in life.....
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (still medicating my brain with blue cheese)
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:19] herman Bergson: How does the brain relate to our consciousness.....?
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm interesting question
[13:20] herman Bergson: we just don't know...
[13:20] herman Bergson: ok...we have fMRI scans of the brain when a person says I feel happy.....
[13:20] herman Bergson: but that  is just a correlation....
[13:20] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): is the effect the same with chocolate and blue cheese?
[13:21] herman Bergson: both addictive Beertje :-)
[13:21] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it feels good to eat that, but is that the same with alcohol?
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm I guess
[13:22] Wonny Masala (wonda.masala) is offline.
[13:22] CB Axel: I believe dark chocolate increases endorphins.
[13:23] herman Bergson: Seems this is the clearest situation that we have no answer at all :-)
[13:23] herman Bergson: It does CB
[13:23] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): if you are very thirsty on a hot summer day does a coo glas of water have the same effect?
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i think so, at least here in my city cause we have really tasty tap water
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): fresh and nice with no traces of chlorine and similar
[13:24] herman Bergson: We know a lot of the chemistery of the brain.....what hormons do etc.....
[13:24] herman Bergson: but we are not able to see the whole picture
[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): so it's not the alcohol or the cheese, I guess it's the feeling of good things
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): in general yes
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): might be
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): for sure
[13:25] herman Bergson: The best metaphore I ever heard was by John Searle....
[13:25] herman Bergson: He is a glass of water
[13:25] herman Bergson: when I put in my finger it becomes wet...
[13:26] herman Bergson: when I analyze this water I finf H2 an O molucules....
[13:26] herman Bergson: but I don't find this wetness it creates.
[13:27] herman Bergson: That is the same with the brain....
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its a property
[13:27] herman Bergson: I can analyze it to the last molecule.....and yet never find consciousness
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): all liquids are wet and liquid is a state of matter caused by molecule interaction
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats true
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): also a property
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): of the other thing combined
[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): but with a lot of alcohol one is consiousLess
[13:28] CB Axel: If you put your finger in a brain it doesn't become wet. It becomes gooey. But, yeah, that's a good metaphor.
[13:28] herman Bergson: You make me think of an old old philosophical from the Middle Ages....Bejiita
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:28] Jenny Core (jenny.kaos) is offline.
[13:29] herman Bergson: The question whether properties really exist ontologically or not
[13:30] herman Bergson: .
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the brain the chemicals ect are components = physical, consciousness is a property or state = not physical byt based on the components and how they interact
[13:30] Jenny Core (jenny.kaos) is online.
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats my definition id say in a simple way
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): in general
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): not just of the brain
[13:30] CB Axel: That makes sense.
[13:31] herman Bergson: I guess that you are right in is just that we don't understand the underlying processes
[13:31] herman Bergson: otherwise we could build conscious brains today
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed THAT is the more complex part
[13:31] herman Bergson: It is the Isaac Asimov world :-)
[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): scary world
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:32] CB Axel: I'm sure someone is working on building a conscious brain.
[13:32] herman Bergson: self aware robots, Beertje :-)
[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): that sounds scary to me
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (imagines computer attacking me tired of all crap i have stuffed in it, bet its tired of all my game development )
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol
[13:33] herman Bergson: Well CB...I heard that to in relation to AI and these self learning algorithms...
[13:33] CB Axel: Yeah, but I wonder if they're trying to build an organic one. Made of goo like our brains.
[13:33] herman Bergson: but believe me......they even hardly scratched the surface of this issue
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I have just started experimenting a bit  with Tensorflow, the most popular AI library today
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Python based
[13:34] herman Bergson: They finally succeeded in creating artificial meat CB...
[13:34] CB Axel: I've been hearing about that.
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): have not gotten to deep into it yet though
[13:35] herman Bergson: So we already got the muscles ...not the brains :-))
[13:35] CB Axel: I hope the day never comes that my hamburger starts questioning my decision to eat it.
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)
[13:35] herman Bergson: I would kill it on the spot :-)))
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (imagines hamburger fighting with CB)
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (throws some cheese into the fight)
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): haha
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it would be crazy indeed
[13:36] Wisdomseeker (lissena) is online.
[13:36] herman Bergson: Being questioned by a hamburger....holy cow :-)
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): not only the hmburger..but first the cow:)
[13:37] CB Axel: LOL
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): then u really start to wonder "did i had too much whine and cheese?"
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol
[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's the wine Bejiita:)
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): mostly yes
[13:37] CB Axel: Only if the hamburger is whining about being eaten.
[13:37] herman Bergson: Guess we have reached that level Bejiita....time to dismiss class :-)))))
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:37] CB Axel: LOL
[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)))
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): before its getting to cheesy in here
[13:38] herman Bergson: Thank you all again....
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or WE are getting to cheesy
[13:38] herman Bergson: Class dismissed :-))
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nice again Herman
[13:38] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.
[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman:)
[13:38] herman Bergson smiles
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu next time
[13:38] herman Bergson: I love cheese :-)
[13:38] CB Axel: I'm going to go out and buy some cheese. :)
[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Comté
[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :))) 
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): CHEESE HERMAN!
[13:38] CB Axel: See you Thursday,
[13:39] herman Bergson: CHEERS BEJIITA  ^_^
[13:39] CB Axel: Bye. :)
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa cu then 
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): all

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):  

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