Tuesday, May 21, 2019

784: What's on your Mind....?

The idea existed already many, many centuries, maybe since the early days of Homo Sapiens: the idea, that inside  the body there is something special: a soul or a mind or both.
The ultimate philosophical justification and metaphysics were invented by Rene Descartes (1598 - 1650). It became knows as Dualism.
Descartes claimed that there exist two substances: a material one, the body and a spiritual, non-material one: the mind.
This dualism became the basis of psycho- analysis, the pseudo-science, invented by Sigmund Freud (1856 - 1939).
It was believed that there was a conscious and subconscious mind or personality in the body, that was shaped by education and childhood experiences.
Thus the metaphysical believe that there exists a world of mind and a world of matter was strengthened.  
And in the period 1920 -1940 psycho-analysis as a way to understand the mind and our behavior was the leading theory in psychology.
However some philosophers showed that this metaphysics has major flaws. One of them was Gilbert Ryle (1900 - 1976).
In "The Concept of Mind" published in 1949, Ryle launched a destructive attack on the traditional, Cartesian concept of duality 
that was based on an essential difference between mental and physical events. With a careful analysis of language, 
Ryle gave a, which he thought was largely a behavioral view of man. According to Ryle there is no inner life in the sense that there is a 'mind' that is independent of actions, thoughts and behavior.
Being aware, having a sense of self, is not the by-product of the mind; it's the mind that's busy. 
The mind is not something that listens to our thoughts; having thoughts is the mind at work. 
In short, there is no mind in the machine - there is only the machine.

Ludwig Wittgenstein (1889 - 1951) was the other philosopher who showed that all metaphysics about body and mind, 
was nothing more than metaphorical language, which did not correctly describes what is really the case, when we talk about the mind.
Because of this criticism, new insights in scientific methods already in the 1950s psycho-analysis as a valid scientific theory came under fire.
Statistics became part of the scientific methods of the social sciences and this lead to statistical doubts about the effectiveness of psych-analysis as a therapy.
A number of researches in the 1950s showed that a client had at the most a 50% chance to get up from the divan in a slightly better mental state than when he lay down on it.
Around 1955 the American Psychoanalytical Association also started to gather information about the effectiveness of psych-analytical therapy.
The committee studied the data of 1269 cases of therapy and everyone was curious after the final report.
But the APsaA refused publication in December 1957. In fact the outcome was very unfavorable. Eventually ten years later the report was published yet. 
Conclusion: only one out of six patients benefited from psycho-analytical therapy.
I guess, that this 20th century will fade eventually and will be replaced with what you see happening today: cognitive psychology, neurobiology, research of the brain.
If you want to learn more about this new approach, in September 2010 I began the project "The Mystery of the Brain". It took 116 lectures to complete it.
Thank you for your attention again....
The Discussion

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:21] herman Bergson: You find all lectures here http://www.herman-bergson.nl/index.html
[13:21] oola Neruda: smile
[13:21] CB Axel: I've often wondered if people are helped by any kind of talk therapy only because they have someone who will listen to them.
[13:22] CB Axel: If people would take the time to listen to one another, maybe psychologists would lose business.
[13:22] herman Bergson: That's my thought too, CB :-)
[13:22] herman Bergson: Well....
[13:22] CB Axel: It's a shame that people feel they need to pay someone to listen.
[13:23] herman Bergson: I believe, that you can be trained to use special techniques of discussing an issue with a client
[13:23] CB Axel: Oh, psychiatrists wouldn't go out of business completely. There are those who need medications as well as talk.
[13:23] herman Bergson: You can practice listening:-)
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:23] CB Axel: And, yes, a trained person can lead the talk in helpful directions.
[13:23] herman Bergson: There are serious psychic illnesses....
[13:24] herman Bergson: schizofrenia....
[13:24] oola Neruda: or leading the conversation to get them to certain kinds of thoughts that might be helpful
[13:24] herman Bergson: compulsive neurosis
[13:24] herman Bergson: and the famous ADHD :-)
[13:25] herman Bergson: which they suppress with Ritalin
[13:25] oola Neruda: ask questions.... so they need to consider possible paths
[13:25] herman Bergson: Yes oola, any good conversation can lead you to the freeing thought or idea
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:26] herman Bergson: Who doesnt know the experience....Ohhh never thought of that! which opens new solutions for you
[13:27] oola Neruda: not every person knows what questions to ask to the person... as some are very ..."different" ... and you need to understand what they are thinking... why they do so... blah blah... to lead the conversations so that it is useful...
[13:27] herman Bergson: The point of today is that the whole theory behind psycho-analysis is kind of fantasy
[13:28] herman Bergson: So a legacy from the 20th century that will disappear eventually
[13:28] oola Neruda: are you making a differentiation between mental illness and... a person whit a problem
[13:28] CB Axel: Childhood experiences are important, but I don't believe in the id, ego, and superego stuff.
[13:28] herman Bergson: No shocking nes. I'd say.....it's just that you know ^_^
[13:29] herman Bergson: Indeed CB
[13:29] herman Bergson: news
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): also to use hypnosis to "fix" someones mind, also a classic u see in some movies and series
[13:29] Hokon Cazalet: That is a concern I've had about psychoanalysis, is their explanations of child development involve mythical constructions; e.g., how do we verify say, Kristeva's hypothesis about abjection of the mother by the infant? we can't exactly ask an infant what's going on in their "mind"
[13:29] CB Axel: Freud was a sex-obsessed old fart I'd never want to smoke cigars with.
[13:29] oola Neruda: my brother worked in a VA hospital and they had to be able to sort out the different causes and the ensuing behavioral issues
[13:30] CB Axel: Yes, Hokon, and too many false memories got implanted in people's minds.
[13:30] herman Bergson: the oedipus-complex Hokon
[13:30] herman Bergson: same story
[13:30] Hokon Cazalet: yup
[13:30] oola Neruda: it was in the day when these questions were really being confronted... and should meds be used... and if so... what kind, when...etc
[13:31] oola Neruda: PTSD... can happen to anyone...and it is complicated
[13:31] herman Bergson: In that sense Piaget was way more better as a developmental psychologist
[13:31] CB Axel: Yeah, but it's hard to experiment on people's childhoods. :-)
[13:31] oola Neruda: not always
[13:32] oola Neruda: some traumas are obvious
[13:32] herman Bergson: My father did on mine.....:-(
[13:32] CB Axel: All child raising is experimental, I guess. There is no instruction manual.
[13:32] herman Bergson: Dr. Spock, CB :-)
[13:32] oola Neruda: homelessness as a child is an example
[13:33] CB Axel: Ya got me there, Herman. LOL
[13:33] oola Neruda: or being stalked by a person known to the family
[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): everyone had Dr. Spock in the house
[13:33] oola Neruda: or sexual impropriety
[13:33] herman Bergson: the worst oola
[13:33] oola Neruda: like the priests abuseing people
[13:33] oola Neruda: these things need to be addressed
[13:33] herman Bergson: even more worse
[13:34] oola Neruda: i know of a child living with their mother in a car... and in the back seat were the ashes of her father...and they drove around like that... all the time
[13:34] herman Bergson: I have seen old men cry when recalling how they were abused by priest
[13:35] oola Neruda: i worked with a child that was raised wild... in the woods... like Mogli...which i cannot spell
[13:35] oola Neruda: she drank out of puddles of water...
[13:35] oola Neruda: did not wear mittens or a coat...
[13:36] oola Neruda: all kinds of things... and at school... drank out of the urinal...
[13:36] oola Neruda: there are things people never realize
[13:36] herman Bergson: But to get back to our topic of today....
[13:36] oola Neruda: one kid was held hostage while the father fought the police
[13:36] oola Neruda: it helps to have a trained therapist
[13:37] herman Bergson: I guess I may conclude that none of you feels sad about losing psycho-analysis
[13:37] oola Neruda: i do
[13:37] herman Bergson: you do, oola?
[13:38] oola Neruda: one vet was assigned to dig up dead soldiers and return them.... he liked his job...and if he could not do it...he would provide the bodies
[13:38] CB Axel: There is a difference between psychoanalysis and talk therapy.
[13:38] Hokon Cazalet: yes CB
[13:38] oola Neruda: i do feel sad bout losing people who try to help
[13:38] herman Bergson: Yes CB
[13:38] oola Neruda: that is true
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:38] herman Bergson: therapeutic talk  can be really helpful for someone
[13:39] herman Bergson: and you also can train people in therapeutic talking....
[13:39] oola Neruda: but the one leading the conversation needs to know why they are talking ..and where they are going
[13:39] CB Axel: Talk therapy doesn't include trying to find childhood trauma that doesn't exist. As you've pointed out, oola, there's plenty of trauma without looking into someone's "id."
[13:40] herman Bergson: yes, oola, but to go to childhood experiences as the enlightening thing.....I have my doubts
[13:40] oola Neruda: ptsd..... is real and serious
[13:40] herman Bergson: it is oola
[13:40] herman Bergson: The question is....how to deal with it
[13:40] oola Neruda: and many of those situations come at different times in life
[13:41] herman Bergson: and psycho analysis has been that effective
[13:41] oola Neruda: depends upon the person and situation...
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes
[13:41] CB Axel: No one is saying that ptsd, etc isn't real. We're just saying that the causes aren't always about sexual development and crap like Freud talked about.
[13:41] oola Neruda: and you need to be able to tell the difference
[13:41] oola Neruda: always being the key word
[13:42] herman Bergson: Indeed CB
[13:42] oola Neruda: and i never said always.... i said the "doctor" needs to be able to assess the overall situation
[13:42] oola Neruda: whatever it is
[13:42] oola Neruda: and what to do with it
[13:43] CB Axel: And we've been agreeing with you. I just don't believe in strict Freudian analysis.
[13:43] oola Neruda: veterans are a good example... it can happen at anytime
[13:43] herman Bergson: Well, I guess today we didn't save psycho-analysis.....
[13:43] oola Neruda: i'll go along with that
[[13:44] herman Bergson: But we cant save the world after every class here....
[13:44] CB Axel: No?
[13:44] CB Axel: hehehe
[13:44] herman Bergson: So..unless you still have something important to say or ask.....
[13:44] Hokon Cazalet: Well, I think psychoanalysis has a fundamental methodological problem in asserting its hypotheses
[13:44] herman Bergson: Exactly Hokon....I agree
[13:44] herman Bergson: The wisest word of today :-)
[13:45] Hokon Cazalet: hehe
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:45] herman Bergson: Thank you all again for your participation :-)
[13:45] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.
[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[13:45] Hokon Cazalet: Thanks for hosting :D
[13:45] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ....
[13:45] oola Neruda: it was one link in the journey....
[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Goodnight, welterusten :)
[13:46] CB Axel: See you all next week. :-)
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes
[13:46] herman Bergson: Sweet dreams Beertje

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nice again

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