Tuesday, March 9, 2021

908: The Light at the Horizon......

 After last Tuesday's interlude, when I showed that the position of neoliberalism and a possible transition 

 to a more cooperative structure of our society is a real part of the current public and political debate, back to the genesis of capitalism. 


We have seen that the small Netherlands was at the cradle of this system around 1605. There we saw the first shares trade arise and in the V.O.C. the first multinational. 


Two factors seem to have played a role. Protestantism with its virtues such as diligence, reliability, thrift, and individual independence on the one hand 


and economic trends such as long-distance trade, division of labor, economies of scale, capital management, and market dynamics on the other have mutually reinforced each other. 


The emergence of capitalism then rests on a long series of processes that ultimately make the social order in the nineteenth century fundamentally different from the order in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries. 


As a result, we see more attention for individual rights and freedoms from 1800 onwards. This certainly applies to the second half of the last century, 


when more and more citizens started to embrace the ideal of maximum freedom of movement. 


In first instance in confrontation with right-wing and left-wing totalitarian ideas, in the second instance after the fall of the Berlin Wall. 


All in all, liberal and capitalist ideas became so dominant across Europe that from the 1990s onwards, the European Union began to conceive of itself primarily as a market. 


Did cooperative thinking disappear with that? It never left. Yet it is very questionable whether the pursuit of community building on the mainland is actually a thing of the past. 


If you look at the European situation in the mid-1970s, for example, you will see a different landscape looming. 


Most European countries had some form of corporatism. Corporatism was seen as a way of representing social interests. 


We see that functional and hierarchically ordered groups are active in the various social sectors. Think of trade unions, employers' organizations, foundations of professional groups, church organizations. 


These groups are given a kind of monopoly position in consultation or decision-making at the state level. In this way, some correlation is established between decision-making at the state level and social organization at the level of society itself. 


It will be clear that this form of living together requires a strong democratic character. It is important, however, that this social structure originates bottom-up in society and is not imposed from above. 


You see the latter in countries where a government, for example, determines who can and cannot be admitted to the professional association of journalists. 


Another phenomenon of neoliberal state policy is the suppression and even elimination of trade unions. 


Unlike the United States, for example, Europe never saw itself as a market before the neoliberal era, certainly not in the Middle Ages, and this belief in the market only emerged in the 19th century. 


As a result, most European countries still recognize the significance of domain-specific and collaborative organizations that work for the collective interests of their members. 


This is in contrast to the neoliberal belief in the principle of individual self-interest as the basis for the structure of society.


Neoliberalism has worked on demolishing the welfare state since the 1980s. People begin to see the consequences now.


What has to return is, what never has disappeared completely, because it is in our nature: social solidarity and a strong community sense.


Thank you for your attention again....


MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995
Gabriel van den Brink:"Ruw Ontwaken uit een Neoliberale Droom",, 2020


13:22] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): but

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm indeed

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): how long can this hold

[13:23] herman Bergson: What the COVID crisis makes very clear is how much the public sector has suffered of defunding...or what is the proper word....

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yep

[13:23] herman Bergson: financial reductions....

[13:23] herman Bergson: March 13 we have elections in the Netherlands.....

[13:23] herman Bergson: And what do you see....?

[13:24] Laila Schuman: oil and gas companies advertising their view

[13:24] herman Bergson: Most political parties claim to gonna support the rebuilding of the public sector...

[13:25] herman Bergson: better schools and education, better healthcare, better social care....that have become the political priorities....not the economy and growth

[13:25] herman Bergson: You do not need to deny the existence of market and market forces....

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): have LL begun something new, i suddenly got a swedish commercial for Postkodlotteriet right in the stream

[13:26] herman Bergson: What we have to show is that this model does not apply to every sector of society

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): targeted commercials in sl stream?

[13:27] herman Bergson: That damned lottery...we have one here too :-)

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i bet u get the Netherlands version

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): in that case

[13:27] herman Bergson: yes yes ^_^

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): never happened before thats why i reacted

[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i hope all the political parties can keep their promises

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaaa

[13:28] herman Bergson: Advertizing keeps the earth revolving, I guess :-)

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and not be the usual bunsh of liars and BSers

[13:28]  Łîly Vîŋƈeŋŧ (lily11223355): be it good or bad

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that promise and promise but

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nothing happens

[13:29] herman Bergson: Indeed Lily...

[13:29]  Łîly Vîŋƈeŋŧ (lily11223355): it's a false sense of security before election

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hope for the best

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): all u can do

[13:29] theo Velde is online.

[13:29]  Łîly Vîŋƈeŋŧ (lily11223355): yes

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and well i don't mind ads too much as long its not all the time but that particular one and those damn poker companies

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): NOT INTERESTED

[13:30] herman Bergson: Politicians do weird things now and then, just to ensure their re-election

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yep

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and Trump was the extreme case

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): with his mob

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but many others also do everything to stay in power

[13:31] herman Bergson: When is a politician really working for the public interest and when for his own interest?

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:32] Laila Schuman: exactly

[13:32] herman Bergson: Of some you know.....but others...???!!

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): when the former turns to the latter its time to kick him out i say

[13:32] Laila Schuman: nods

[13:32] herman Bergson: Let me give you one example.....

[13:33] herman Bergson: Biden tries to get his relief bill through congres and senate....

[13:33] herman Bergson: there is one rep senator who demands that the bill has to be read outloud completely

[13:33] herman Bergson: 600+ pages....wasting more than 10 hours of precious time

[13:34] Laila Schuman: on purpose

[13:34] herman Bergson: Is he serving the public interest with htis action, or his own interest?

[13:34]  Łîly Vîŋƈeŋŧ (lily11223355): ulterior motives there

[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): did he do that with the bill from Trump too?

[13:34] CB Axel: Maybe he can't read. :)

[13:35] herman Bergson: Yes....he thinks his constituents love it seeing him obstructing any Biden plan....

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): eee ok

[13:35] herman Bergson: That too CB...the name is Ron Johnson....forgot from what state, maybe Tennessee

[13:36] herman Bergson: But in such examples you see the true face of politics..... the private and public interest such an individual represents

[13:36] herman Bergson: I find it shameless

[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): if the others say no, we won't do that?

[13:37] CB Axel: He's from Utah.

[13:37] herman Bergson: Thank you CB :-)

[13:37] CB Axel: :)

[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): he is only 1 man?

[13:37] Laila Schuman: one is enough when they are like that

[13:37] CB Axel: So he's not really doing the work of a congressman. He's just worrying about his next election.

[13:38] herman Bergson: Yes, but the rule seems to be, when one senator asks for the reading it has to be done

[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): strange

[13:38] herman Bergson: He seems to be indeed CB

[13:38] CB Axel: The first thing anyone elected to the US congress does is start making phone calls to get his next campaign funded.

[13:39] herman Bergson: That rule may date back from the time that not all members of congress could properly read, like CB suggested :-)

[13:39]  Łîly Vîŋƈeŋŧ (lily11223355): truly?

[13:39] CB Axel: I've heard that from a few congressmen, but Al Franken wrote about it in one of his books.

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but why keeping outdated stuff. if it just wastes time?

[13:39] herman Bergson: I don't know, Lily, but when you think of 1793 as starting point

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but its bureaucrazy = SLOOOOOOOOOOOOW

[13:40]  Łîly Vîŋƈeŋŧ (lily11223355): nods

[13:40] CB Axel: Back when the US was founded everyone in Congress could read.

[13:40] CB Axel: They were all middle and upper class gentlemen.

[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): so in the future they have to make a test to see if they can read:)

[13:40] CB Axel: The country was founded by and for them.

[13:41] herman Bergson: Seems likely indeed....but yet it is a funny idea, speculating WHY a whole bill should be read outloud by a cleck

[13:41] CB Axel: I bet there are congressmen now who are less educated than they were back in the 18th century.

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): probably

[13:41]  Łîly Vîŋƈeŋŧ (lily11223355): goodness me

[13:41] Laila Schuman: possible... i've heard some crazy stuff

[13:41] herman Bergson: I won't comment on that CB  :-)

[13:42]  Łîly Vîŋƈeŋŧ (lily11223355): i would expect a politician to be higher than average considering decisions nationally or in their state to be made?

[13:42]  Łîly Vîŋƈeŋŧ (lily11223355): that's amazing.

[13:42] Laila Schuman whispers: like you can not get pregnant if you are raped...

[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and all this to serve the citisens of the us?

[13:42] CB Axel: I was joking, of course. I'm sure they all can read, but I don't think they understand the Constitution very well.

[13:42] Laila Schuman: that your bocy prevents it .... God prevents it

[13:42] Laila Schuman: one of our leaders said that

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes but its just about money and status today not about doing a good job

[13:42] herman Bergson: You are an idealist Lily.....some are indeed of a high moral level and well educated.....but some others...

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): wich is why MrT could be president at all

[13:42] CB Axel: Right, Laila. They know science even less than they know the law.

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but he made no profit from it?

[13:43] Laila Schuman: YES

[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): a lot of work has to be done in the congres:)

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): all they know about is dusty paperwoprk

[13:44] CB Axel: Some are very well educated and have high principles.

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): BOOOOOORING dusty paperwork

[13:44] Laila Schuman: education is important... especially for children

[13:44] Laila Schuman: get them early

[13:44] CB Axel: Elizabeth Warren is my favorite. :)

[13:44] herman Bergson: I think there is a difference between the US and Europe with respect to the quality and behavior of politicians

[13:44]  Łîly Vîŋƈeŋŧ (lily11223355): politicians sound  like over priced children at times lol

[13:45]  Łîly Vîŋƈeŋŧ (lily11223355): over paid*

[13:45] herman Bergson: Like Mr. T wanted his Spaceforce we had a politician who wanted an Animal Police....

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:46] herman Bergson: Special cops to protect animals

[13:46] herman Bergson: but we already have a number of private organisations for anmimal care and protecion

[13:46] herman Bergson: subsidized by tax payer's money

[13:47] herman Bergson: We have low brain types too here

[13:47] herman Bergson: But not that many :-))

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they are everywhere i guess

[13:48] herman Bergson: Well...then let us enjoy the high quality of our brains here in class and start thinking of the weekend ^_^

[13:49] herman Bergson: Unless you still want to drop a remark........?

[13:49] herman Bergson: Thank you for your endurance today ^_^

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): fun fact. Where Sweden's politicians house in Stockholm there were previously it seems an "idiot institution"

[13:49] herman Bergson: Class dismissed :-))

[13:49]  Łîly Vîŋƈeŋŧ (lily11223355): Gracias Herman

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like insane asylum

[13:49] CB Axel: I just got my second covid vaccine today, so I expect to feel ill soon. :)

[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol Bejiita

[13:49] herman Bergson: De nada Lily :-))

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): "new buildings but same content" one had commented

[13:49] CB Axel: LOL, Bejiita.

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa ok CB

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