Tuesday, January 20, 2015

561: Why atheism ?

Why is there atheism….what for? I think it was CB Axel who said: “Shouldn’t the question be …Why is there theism? “
Yes you could start at the other end of the street, but it is still the same street. But in both cases I would have had the problem that I am facing now.
In 2007 I started with my first project: 100 Philosophers. The trick was, that I used the book f Peter Stokes, “100 Essential Thinkers” as a guideline.
I never had to ponder about the content of the next lecture. I just picked the next philosopher from the book.
And that was my method: at the basis of every project there was a book or a number of books. They contained the trail of bread crumbs I followed.
Where I am now, began with the project “The Mystery of the Brain”. When I wrote my thesis in 1977 which was about the Mind - Body problem, nothing, what we know now, was known about the brain.
Thence the project was really exciting and an eye-opener for me and also for those who attended this class.
In relation to our present subject one of the most interesting observations was the “God helmet” of Koren and Persinger.
Although questioned, they alleged, that the helmet generated experiences, which looked similar to stories of Saints seeing divine apparitions.
Another part of this project was the book “We are our Brain” by Dick Swaab (2010), which filled in a lot of gaps in explaining emotions, beliefs, sensory experiences and so on and the brain.
Then there was the project on Non-Western Philosophies and the observation that only the Western philosophy had produced science as it is now.
Worse even, Islamic philosophy got completely stuck in explaining the Quran after 1100 A.D and that, while knowledge of Aristotle, medicine, mathematics  and astronomy were parts of its culture.
All non-Western philosophies seemed to be concerned only with the question of how to be a good human being, how to live a good life.
One exception might be in India with the Ajivika and Carvaka schools of atomism which emerged about the 6th century BCE as an alternative to the orthodox Hindu pro-Vedic schools.
The Carvaka school of philosophy was a true materialist or naturalist philosophy. A naturalism aligns philosophy with science and the natural world, rejecting the supernatural.
As for Carvaka philosophy, there is no continuity after the 12th century, probably eclipsed by Hinduism.
It was a small step to continue with a project with the title “Why Science is Right”. It relates to a similar issue: the separation of state and religion which we have achieved to various extends.
In my case it was about the separation of science and religion. The relation science = atheism emerged in particular after 1859, after Darwin’s “On the Origin of Species”.
The foundations for the separation of science and religion, however, were already created  in the Age of Enlightenment, an era from the 1650s to the 1780s 
in which cultural and intellectual forces in Western Europe emphasized reason, analysis and individualism rather than traditional lines of authority, that is, religion.
Thence there could not have been another outcome. I had to pay attention to atheism, because religion had become such a peculiar feature of human behavior to me.
But I had and stil have no book to use as my guideline.  One of the reasons is that there is so much information on this subject.
Another reason is that I have some unphilosophical  intuition that  atheism or visa versa theism is such a nonsense subject, but fun.
I’ll keep working on it, but at least today I  want to make one final point. When I ask the question “Why is there atheism?”
I look at that map on the wall to the left of me and then I like to bring to your attention just his: 
The United Nations Human Rights Committee explains article 18 of The  Universal Declaration of Human Rights thus:
1. The right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion (which includes the freedom to hold beliefs) in article 18.1 is far-reaching and profound; 
it encompasses freedom of thought on all matters, personal conviction and the commitment to religion or belief, whether manifested individually or in community with others….
2. Article 18 protects theistic, non-theistic and atheistic beliefs, as well as the right not to profess any religion or belief. The terms ‘belief’ and ‘religion’ are to be broadly construed. 
Article 18 is not limited in its application to traditional religions or to religions and beliefs with institutional characteristics or practices analogous to those of traditional religions.
Only the GREEN countries on the map respect this article 18 for 100%. I hope you have your magnifying glass with you. THIS is our world.
I guess, all religions have something to explain,…….. to begin with….. and I think that questioning theism makes good sense.
Thank you, ………… the floor is yours… ^_^

The  Discussion

Corona Anatine: no its free to use
herman Bergson: By clicking the map you'll get the URL where you can download the report on Freedom of Thought
Daruma Boa: religion is a kind of seeing the world. or better, explaining the world.
herman Bergson: it is free
Freedom of Thought : The Philosophy Class: Lectures every Tuesday and Thursday at 1 PM SL-time, free access
Freedom of Thought: Freedom of Thought at Wainscot has just been used by Bejiita Imako!
Freedom of Thought : The Philosophy Class: Lectures every Tuesday and Thursday at 1 PM SL-time, free access
Freedom of Thought: Freedom of Thought at Wainscot has just been used by Max Chatnoir!
herman Bergson: I have read a lot of horror stories....
herman Bergson: but this report is oen of the "best"
Corona Anatine:  except it does neither Daruma 
Tama Ahn: netherlands centric map hehe
Corona Anatine: not sre why its called a freedom of thought report = woul;d be more accurately caleld restriction of thought report
Areyn Laurasia: I'm surprised to see some countries in black
Corona Anatine: well look which nationas are black
Gemma Allen: serious countries too
Corona Anatine: bigt chuck ar eislamic
Corona Anatine: and china
herman Bergson: China, Saoudi Arabia....doesn’t surprise me
Areyn Laurasia: because it's like the only place I ever saw church, temple and mosque in a row
Corona Anatine: what is the one on coats of south america
herman Bergson: Venezuela
Gemma Allen: oh yes
Corona Anatine: and chile - no surprise eairht really
Max Chatnoir: Aweful lot of red and black
herman Bergson: You would expect te US and Europe to be green......
Corona Anatine: no
Max Chatnoir: New World/ Old World
herman Bergson: But as you see...it isn’t the case
Tama Ahn: netherlands where they scare cartoonist with police squats in the morning lifting him from his bed
Tama Ahn: all green
Bejiita Imako: the world is terrible now in general. Just look what IS and Boko Haram are doing at moment, wiping out entire towns with 1000s of people cause of their screwed up alterned image if islam
Corona Anatine: it would be nice if they were  but not expected they are yellow or orange
Bejiita Imako: its really sad
Corona Anatine: interesting why a small nation on west african coast is green
herman Bergson: I really do not know what is motivating these people Bejiita...
Areyn Laurasia: is the report biased?
CB Axel: I would like to see this map divide up the US by state.
herman Bergson: And more so, I don't know who is financing these people!!!!
Bejiita Imako: not me either, its like they are posessed by demons or something
Corona Anatine: as is Montenegro and a tiny part of the baltic states
Corona Anatine: oh and Taiwan also
Areyn Laurasia: it's seeing injustice in the world and suffering and a lack of help, Bejiita
herman Bergson: I cant get rid of the idea that Boko Haran and IS are USED by those who finance them.....for their own agenda
Corona Anatine: would that be any othe rway herman
Gemma Allen: and last week killed about 2000 people
CB Axel: You mean like how American voters are used by those who finance elections?
Corona Anatine: 200 that got news coverage
Bejiita Imako: yes, was kind of depressed when i head about it
herman Bergson: Yes CB...something like that....
Bejiita Imako: its getting worse and worse
Max Chatnoir: I have speculated that religion is an extension of social or community relations -- a local deity is an uber alpha male.   And if you are his buddy, then you are friends with the uber alpha male.
Bejiita Imako: :(
Gemma Allen: little new coverage
Corona Anatine: exactly
Areyn Laurasia: how many million went to march in solidarity for a few and ignored the millions?
Corona Anatine: the 2000 were just those that got mentioned
Bejiita Imako: probably even more got wiped out or getting right now at moment
Bejiita Imako: i feel so powerless, Wish i could do something but I cant
herman Bergson: But to get back to our main issue here.....
Areyn Laurasia: you can
Bejiita Imako: poor people
Corona Anatine: no very little we can do
Areyn Laurasia: become aware
herman Bergson: This map shows what religions and ideologies do to freedom of thought
Corona Anatine: the map strongly resembles the map covering women status and LGBT rights
herman Bergson: And you asked Is this a biased picture, Areyn...
Corona Anatine: alwasy a dark patch from north africa to indai
Areyn Laurasia: yes
herman Bergson: In a way I would say YES.....
Tama Ahn: no in iran you can get a sex change .. just cant be gay
Areyn Laurasia: Things look very different from the street..
herman Bergson: It is biased in the sense that it takes the Universal Human rights as standard
hyacinth: I don't know if it's religion that limits freedom of thought. 
herman Bergson: And not all countries in the world agree with that standard....China as number one in this
Areyn Laurasia: There are supposedly more christians in China than Europe?
Max Chatnoir: there are more PEOPLE in china than in Europe!
herman Bergson: Yes and China has become less restricting on christians....
Tama Ahn: yeh only last year or so?
herman Bergson: but that is not a matter of freedom of thought, but a pragmatic choice
herman Bergson: If you cant fight them, join them...so to speak
Max Chatnoir: Like Christianity in Constantinian Rome?
herman Bergson: I dont know Max :-)
Corona Anatine: why is Germany so restrictive of thought - i would have thought it was orange
herman Bergson: plz read the report Corona
Corona Anatine: yes of course that would explain things
herman Bergson: But I get the feeling that atheism today is a result of conflicting cultures....
Tama Ahn: how?
herman Bergson: Like Islam conficts with Western culture like Huntington predicted that would be the future
science24: included but not limited to that
Gemma Allen: i get the impression Germany is having a real pullback on beliefs
Areyn Laurasia: even if some claims western government is more like islamic than the islamic countries?
herman Bergson: Yes there to conflict is out in the streets...
Max Chatnoir: That's an interesting idea.  You don't want to pick a side so you pick no side?
Daruma Boa: we have in Germany a lot of problems with belief;-)
Daruma Boa: these days it causes only problems.
Max Chatnoir: Being an atheist is better than choosing the wrong version of God?
Gemma Allen: interesting thought
Areyn Laurasia: how about being spiritual but not belonging to any denomination of religion|?
Daruma Boa: what is the wrong version?
Corona Anatine: 550 odd pages -it can wait :
science24: to some extent Max, but atheism is a side
herman Bergson: Well that is such an issue....in the atheist debate....
Daruma Boa: true areyn. i think we are on our way to see this.
Max Chatnoir: But not an alliance with somebody's uber alpha male.
Corona Anatine: that suggests there is a rigth version of 'god' possible
Daruma Boa: not to decide for one side.
herman Bergson: they pick just one god....the christian one....
herman Bergson: most of the time....
Gemma Allen: I rea part of that report during vacation
herman Bergson: That is understandable in a cultural sense but in fact so weird....
herman Bergson: I guess it did not make you happy Gemma
Corona Anatine: couldnt we just nuke all the black bits of the world and thereby make it more free thinking
Daruma Boa: hey Rodney. punctual as ever^^^
Gemma Allen GIGGLES!!
Gemma Allen: ...LOL...
Gemma Allen: incredible
Rodney Handrick: Hi Daruma
Bejiita Imako: hi Rodney
Ciska Riverstone: lets paint it pink - worked already once ;)
Daruma Boa waves
Max Chatnoir: Do muslims have missionaries?  I really don't know.
Rodney Handrick: Hi Bejiita
Corona Anatine: not in a christian sense
herman Bergson: I would say NO Daruma because the nuking is an act of totally unfree thinking :-)
Gemma Allen: i am sure they do
herman Bergson: I would say Yes Max...
Gemma Allen: imams who open mosques
Ciska Riverstone: not sure if they do max - but i met one already ;)
herman Bergson: They stood for the gates of Vienna somewhere around...what was it...1300 or so...1400?
herman Bergson: Bringing the Islam to Europe
herman Bergson: Killing the infidel
hyacinth: depends what you call a missionary.
Max Chatnoir: Ah, good point.
Corona Anatine: also it is good that most of the world is blue - showing how free from restricive thought dolphins and whales are
Object:  Frans de Waal has just been used by CB Axel!
Daruma Boa: herman i missed the point. why no?
Max Chatnoir: But was that a missionary or an invasion?
CB Axel: So jihadists are missionaries?
Areyn Laurasia: time to move to the oceans....
Daruma Boa: *GIGGLES* :)~~~~
herman Bergson: But their missionaries are most of the time fully armed...we now call thenm terrorists
Gemma Allen: but there are missionaries as those who wish ot convert new
Gemma Allen: members
CB Axel: Well, look at how the Crusaders treated "infidels."
Gemma Allen: anywhere in the world
Max Chatnoir: True.
Gemma Allen: now not then
Max Chatnoir: Not exactly peaceful.
Areyn Laurasia: there are extremists in any religion
herman Bergson: WellCB...if you assume that they act from faith....they are spreading their faith by killing the infidel
Gemma Allen: i think there are even extreme atheists
herman Bergson: It is a bad marketing strategy....but yet....
hyacinth: yes
Max Chatnoir: Like killing doctors that give abortions.
Ciska Riverstone: yes gemma
Max Chatnoir: Those people think they are acting from faith.
hyacinth: Islam also has peaceful missionaries and apologists
herman Bergson: Yes Max....
Gemma Allen: yes they do
CB Axel: Killing abortion doctors is giving the death penalty to murderers, in their eyes.
Max Chatnoir: no due process.
herman Bergson: But I do not know where in the Bilble is written that you have the right to kill and murder
Gemma Allen: oh goodness in the old testament
Max Chatnoir: In fact, I think it says not to.
Gemma Allen GIGGLES!!
Gemma Allen: ...LOL...
Gemma Allen: lots of places
Corona Anatine: the thing is Herman doesn’t acturally teach us philosophy -he gets us to teach ourselves philosophy
Gemma Allen: eye for an eye
Bejiita Imako: hehe
hyacinth: as a pro life person, people who bomb ND terrorize abortionists make me so angry.
Areyn Laurasia: and the world goes blind....
herman Bergson: I am not the oracle indeed, Corona ^_^
Areyn Laurasia: so how are we going to have freedom of thought? by letting people have a chance to live as they will, in peace first?
Max Chatnoir: You're Socrates.  :-)
CB Axel looks for hemlock to hide.
herman Bergson: That might be a goos start Areyn
Bejiita Imako:
Corona Anatine: yeah you just us the roadsigns - we have to travel there ourselves
herman Bergson: Thoughts never kill....they may however annoy you :-)
herman Bergson: goos means good :-)
herman Bergson: Though maybe a goose is wiser than we are :-)
CB Axel: In typonese
Tama Ahn: how exactly is freedom of thought given? doesn't that imply it's not free.. but somehow handed to you?
Max Chatnoir: :-)
Tama Ahn: heh
Corona Anatine: who could say
Max Chatnoir: What a good question!
Areyn Laurasia: brainwashed from young.. ^.^
Corona Anatine: geese lack religion so perhaps they are
CB Axel: We're all free to think. We just all can't express our thoughts or act on them freely.
herman Bergson: Difficult question, for freedom exists only in relation to limitations, boundaries
Tama Ahn: yeh, and what is seen as crime in one country isn’t in another
herman Bergson: where does freedom end?
Corona Anatine: where it begins ?
Daruma Boa: does freedom end?
Areyn Laurasia: start free and lose it all fighting for freedom
Max Chatnoir: where you start bullying people who don't agree with you.
Daruma Boa: ja the fighting has to stop.
Bejiita Imako: yes
Daruma Boa: just be free. easy words but hard to do
Max Chatnoir: The person who fires the first shot has lost the argument.
herman Bergson: Well I guess there can be an answer....
Areyn Laurasia: or fuel the fire for a few world wars
herman Bergson: Maybe we should not think in terms of absolute freedom.....
Corona Anatine: an answer yes the answer maybe
Daruma Boa: no max. i guess times change. also when peeps die these days.
herman Bergson: we all live in contexts...
Daruma Boa: but we also saw in paris, that a pencil is harder that an weapon
herman Bergson: a social context, a moral context , a religious context....
Ciska Riverstone: people need to learn to disagree... and not feel that thats the end of the world as they know it.
Max Chatnoir: Yes, there has to be some kind of social consensus.
Daruma Boa: and I hope this will grow
Corona Anatine: well all have absolute freedom of thought - just not of expressing it
CB Axel: I agree, Ciska
Daruma Boa: the power of the pencil and the freedom of mind
herman Bergson: so in the context of religion/non-religion you can speak of total freedam...
Corona Anatine: but
Gemma Allen: interesting that most people hated that magazine but came out to defend it
Corona Anatine: relgion tends to narrow the focus of thoughts questions
Areyn Laurasia: could it be a ploy by the magazine to gain readership?
Daruma Boa: i did not hate it^^
Gemma Allen: omg
Gemma Allen: OMG!!!
Corona Anatine: what
Max Chatnoir: It sure did gain readership, but I can't believe it was a plot.
Tama Ahn: i didnt know about the magazine lol
herman Bergson: Oh my...the conspirecy theory :-)
Corona Anatine: the hired hitmen to kill them just to boost sales figures
Gemma Allen: ah it was satirical and offended every one
Bejiita Imako: eeeeh?
Bejiita Imako: that seems improbable
CB Axel: Like Sony claimed they were hacked to get people to care about a silly movie?
Ciska Riverstone: the sad thing is that in this crazy world we almost belive that
Max Chatnoir: If you don't like a magazine, don't buy it.
Gemma Allen: nono
Gemma Allen: that is sony!!!
Corona Anatine: no someone else might have done so [maybe] but not the mag itself
Gemma Allen: we are talking about charie hebdo
Gemma Allen: in Paris
herman Bergson: there we talk of freedom of thought too....
CB Axel: I know.
.: Beertje :.: could it be a ploy by the magazine to gain readership? how can you think such a thing?
CB Axel: But it's another conspiracy theory.
Tama Ahn: lol
Gemma Allen: oh wow
Daruma Boa: true beertje. sometimes funny some thoughts.
Daruma Boa: but ist also to handle the fear you have
.: Beertje :.: it's not funny,,it's scary
Daruma Boa: humans like to think very unusual things, just to have "peace" for her fears
Gemma Allen: i think that thought would scare most conspiracy theorists
Ciska Riverstone: it is Beertje - the scary thing is that for a millisecond you can almost take it into consideration these days :/
Tama Ahn: oh now people shooting with automatic weapons are scary all of a sudden?
Tama Ahn: hehe
Areyn Laurasia: maybe I hang around people who question too much :)
Tama Ahn: guess they are
Corona Anatine: there is a more significant item currently than charlie - and that is raif badawi
Gemma Allen: true
Rodney Handrick: true
Bejiita Imako: ah
CB Axel: yes
Corona Anatine: 1000 lashes for aiming to have a free debate on liberalism
herman Bergson: Who is that Corona....
Daruma Boa: corona its all together. all things that happen in a sum have a reason.
Corona Anatine: saudi prisoner
Daruma Boa: u can not separate that.
Gemma Allen: it may be that that north of the equator is considered still more civilized
Daruma Boa: its a process of human beings
Daruma Boa: of the sociall life
herman Bergson: Ahh the Saoudi man who was sentenced to 1000 lashes?!
Corona Anatine: or Gemma - the map suggests that the hotter the climate the more restrcitibe the thinking
Max Chatnoir: Well, south of the Equator is mostly ocean.  :-)
CB Axel: But he lives in a black country on the map. Charlie Hebdo is in a yellow one.
Corona Anatine: maybe heat makes thought less liberal
CB Axel: One expects that there\
Corona Anatine: not as far as the extremists are concerned
Corona Anatine: for them the whole world is black
.: Beertje :.: look how red Syberia is....and it's COLD there
herman Bergson: From an evolutionary point of view it might be the case that the stuggle to survive is due to that...
Max Chatnoir: In a black country, Charlie Hebdo would never have been published.
herman Bergson: No Max...indeed
Areyn Laurasia: out of respect for others? or out of fear?
Max Chatnoir: Repression.
CB Axel: fear
Corona Anatine: thus it is a bigger thing that Raif did
CB Axel: true
Tama Ahn: if our countries were being thorn by war and rebels and violent revolutions around some corner we would perhaps also have more restrictions on the expressions and thinking stuff i suppose
herman Bergson: China even said that we have to rethink our concept of freedom of press because it provokes people and makes them terrorists
Gemma Allen: hah
Max Chatnoir: Hmmm.
Corona Anatine: well china would say that perhaps
Max Chatnoir: Look what you made me do?
herman Bergson: It did Corona....
herman Bergson: Their central Press Office
Bejiita Imako: ok
Corona Anatine: yes but being china would it have said anything else
.: Beertje :.: so it's our fault what the terrorists did?
Corona Anatine: many beleive so
herman Bergson: It regarded the freedom of press in the Western world as one of the causes of terrorism...
Tama Ahn: our fault ? i didnt even choose to get born lol
Areyn Laurasia: and we all live in interesting times...
.: Beertje :.: they are jalous
.: Beertje :.: at our way of living and freedom
herman Bergson: Then it was someone else who chose for you Tama:-)
Tama Ahn: seems so
Max Chatnoir: Well, if you poke at a bully, there is a good chance of getting punched, so there is something in that, but doesn't that policy just encourage bullies?
CB Axel: I think they're more afraid of our way of living and freedom.
Corona Anatine: well according to orthodox islamic belief - by being born you are automatically muslim
Areyn Laurasia: a bully wouldn't be a bully unless they are insecure and feel a need to reclaim some sort of power/balance?
herman Bergson: Well I think you've got enough to think about now.....
Bejiita Imako: indeed
herman Bergson: Have a look at the report....
Bejiita Imako: hehe
Daruma Boa: can be^^^
Corona Anatine: 542 pages worth thanks herman appreciated
Tama Ahn: anyway the fairytale believes are just a tool in war, but you are right to say the younger religions still need to have the process of domestication
herman Bergson: And let me thank you all again for your participation.....
Daruma Boa: thank you very much herman.
Bejiita Imako: this was interesting
CB Axel: That "bullies are insecure" theory, I believe, is not necessarily true. I think some bullies just feel entitled to superiority.
Ciska Riverstone: thanx herman- thanx all
herman Bergson: We'll continue next Tuesday :-))
Bejiita Imako: gonna read through that PDF later
Corona Anatine: thnaks Herman
herman Bergson: and now some fun :-)
Bejiita Imako: cu tuesday
Corona Anatine: good presentation
Daruma Boa: ja cu tuesday
Daruma Boa: oi
Bejiita Imako: hehehe
Tama Ahn: 542 pages good luck
Daruma Boa: *GIGGLES* :)~~~~
Corona Anatine: hmm Herman griefs his own class
CB Axel: Thank you, herman. See you all on Tuesday.
Areyn Laurasia: lots of reading...
.: Beertje :.: smiles
Bejiita Imako: hehehehe
herman Bergson: Class dismissed ...^_^
bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you herman and class!
Gemma Allen: Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!!
bergfrau Apfelbaum: ***** APPPPPPPLLLLAAAUUUSSSSEEEEEEE***********
Daruma Boa waves
Rodney Handrick: Thanks

.: Beertje :.: have a goodnight all:)

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