307: The Brain and Fear

Emotions and feelings are biological mechanisms, which are the true guides of our doings. Millions of years our ancestors feared predators, were jealous when someone else approached their partner, were overwhelmed when holding a baby.

Emotions that have repeated themselves millions of times through history, imprinted behavior patterns in the brain. And here comes the specialty of the human brain.

The very moment something unusual happens, something out of the ordinary, the old biological mechanisms have no answer.

At such moments the ratio is activated and begins to analyze, evaluate and searching for a solution of the new and unfamiliar situation. We behave intelligent, which means we are able to solve problems.

Through history our ability to solve problems in many areas has increased: our knowledge of our environment, our insights in social behavior, our capacity to come up with technical solutions, our ability to use language for communication.

In spite of al this emotions and feelings are still important instruments for human beings to make life possible. A simple example….. You encounter a snake on your path.

You could start an extensive rational process of analyzing the situation: what snake is it, dangerous? Can I run or is it faster than me and so on.

But what really happens is that you stop immediately and move away, even before you know what kind of snake it is. The presence of the snake is enough to set you in motion.

This way of behavior has proven to more profitable for survival than other approaches of the situation. The behavioral system which is involved here is FEAR, probably the oldest emotion and stronger than our acclaimed ratio.

Darwin published in 1872 "The expression of the emotions in man and animal". It took almost a century before scientists paid attention to this publication.

For a long time the scientific community wasn't that happy with emotions and feelings. They were the core business of artists and poets. It is hardly possible to quantify emotions and feelings, so you can't measure them properly. And besides that…the ratio is in much higher esteem.

So, we teach our children to suppress and control their emotion and be reasonable. We learn that in many situations the best face is a pokerface.

Due to the interdisciplinary approach of human behavior by neuroscientists, evolutionary psychologists, biologists, philosophers , antropologists and others emotions no longer are regarded as jammers and obstacles for the ratio, but as an integral part of our being.

We have a number of words which seems to mean more or less the same: emotions, feelings, moods. So we need to find a good definition of emotion.

Especially because my thesis here is, that emotion is biological system, a behavioral system which is the result of a long evolutionary development. In that sense feelings are just a part of an emotion.

An example: Bergie is tired and wants to go home. It is raining. She has two options: the shortcut through the dark alley or the longer road along main street. She wants to go home and chooses for the dark alley……

In the alley all of a sudden she hears footsteps following her. What will happen? The emotion FEAR comes into action (even half a second before she consciously is aware of it), not a rational analysis of the situation.

In Bergie's brain a number of programs come into action teamwise. Sensory input is enhanced… a sharper ear for the footsteps. Motivations change: keeping hairdo intact isn't important anymore….personal safety is.

To achieve this new information is gathered, not where the pools are, but where can I hide, where are obstacles in her path. Suddenly the waste container isn't evaluated anymore as a dirty object, but as a place to hide behind.

Memory is activated…. did she see somebody when she entered the alley. Did her friends warn her for a rapist? The communication system is fired….should she cry for help? The expression on her face is already one of fear.

Emotions show themselves by feelings, in this case fear, but the emotion is much more than just that feeling. Thence, an emotion is a driving force which as an orchestra conductor ensures that a number of specific behavioral systems run in parallel and work together to solve an acute problem.

The emotion pushes all actions of the person in fear into one direction. And it is through evolution that we have developed this system of emotions, which ensures our survival and ability to live as a social being.


The Discussion

[13:24] herman Bergson: Thank you....
[13:24] Qwark Allen: 1 feeling can do several different emotions at same time
[13:24] herman Bergson: As you may have noticed....
[13:25] herman Bergson: my main goal is to describe the human being as a product of evolution
[13:25] Mick Nerido: Emotions spring from what part of our brain?
[13:25] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): right
[13:25] itsme Frederix: hmm as a product of evolved mechanism
[13:25] herman Bergson: Yes Mick....
[13:26] Mick Nerido: All parts?
[13:26] Bejiita Imako: so emotion is the mechanism itself had feeling is how we well feel it when the emotion kicks in
[13:26] herman Bergson: yes a number of areas in the brain are activated
[13:26] Qwark Allen: there are parts of the brain responsable for that
[13:27] herman Bergson: Exactly Bejiita....
[13:27] herman Bergson: But by definition....
[13:27] Qwark Allen: if they are damaged you may not experience emotions
[13:27] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): emotions being automatic, they are our animal selves....rooted in our brain stem
[13:27] herman Bergson: form my point of view emotion is the conductor of the brain orchestra...
[13:27] herman Bergson: Yes Aristotle....
[13:27] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): I see it the very opposite Herman :)
[13:28] herman Bergson: `the emotion is already triggered before we are consciously aware of it...
[13:28] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): our ratio the conductor
[13:28] Mick Nerido: ratio is rational only?
[13:28] herman Bergson: No Aristotle....
[13:28] Bejiita Imako: and when we become aware we get the feeling from that emotion ex joy panic and so on
[13:29] itsme Frederix: Herman, but who is the composer - environment?
[13:29] Mick Nerido: Perhaps we have co-conductors?
[13:29] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): emotion is the train, ratio the engineer
[13:29] herman Bergson: The composer is evolution Itsme..the eternal interaction between organism and environment
[13:29] herman Bergson: I do not agree Aristotle....
[13:30] herman Bergson: Ratio is a mechanism that kicks in when we are in a new , unknown situation...
[13:30] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): hmm, which is cart and which is horse
[13:30] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): :-)
[13:30] herman Bergson: A situation we cannot handle by just reacting out of fear or anger or grief etc.
[13:31] itsme Frederix: Herman if ratio kicks in when the situation is new, the next time this rational behavior is programmed and wired as a "emotion"?
[13:31] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): isn't fear, anger, lust etc automatic responses to stimuli?
[13:31] herman Bergson: The basic point here is, that the ratio is overestimated in its role with respect to survival
[13:32] itsme Frederix: I agree
[13:32] herman Bergson: sure Aristotle
[13:32] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yes that is so true]
[13:32] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): and rationally we control them?
[13:32] herman Bergson: No...
[13:33] herman Bergson: evolutionary seen...the emotion of fear, the behavioral mechanism to run for danger was developed before the brain part that produces the ratio was in place..
[13:33] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): yes, I agree with that
[13:34] herman Bergson: almost all animals experience fear...and act accordingly.....they don't need a ratio to survive
[13:34] Mick Nerido: So we have an old boss and a new boss
[13:34] herman Bergson: exactly Mick
[13:34] itsme Frederix: on this RET is based as making you aware why you are acting
[13:34] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): the aggressive behavior to combat fear is released by our rational thought
[13:35] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): or not
[13:35] herman Bergson: of course the ratio can interfere with any emotion...
[13:35] herman Bergson: That will differ from person to person....
[13:36] herman Bergson: Some people even hardly experience fear....
[13:36] herman Bergson: and become movie stuntmen ^_^
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: hehe
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: or jackass idiots
[13:36] Mick Nerido: lol
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: haha
[13:36] itsme Frederix: all depends on how things are evolved in the brain and DNA has selected it
[13:36] herman Bergson: lol indeed Bejiita
[13:36] Mick Nerido: adreline junkies
[13:36] herman Bergson: yes Itsme
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:37] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): fearless and stupidity sometimes are the same sometimes
[13:37] itsme Frederix: and there is no cause and no goal with evolution it just goes
[13:37] herman Bergson: if stupidity means 'lack of ratio' you are right Aristotle
[13:38] Mick Nerido: ts like Emotions is driving while ratio is in the back seat giving directions
[13:38] herman Bergson: indeed Itsme...I agree with that
[13:38] herman Bergson: yes Aristotle......
[13:39] itsme Frederix: Mick I like that but ... you still postpone a superior ratio!
[13:39] herman Bergson: I agree with Mick.....
[13:39] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): and survival or not :)
[13:40] herman Bergson: A lot of what we call consciousness is a talk or justification afterwards...
[13:40] herman Bergson: But we need that
[13:40] itsme Frederix: So the problem Mick is giving us .... are we in a taxi/cap ordering the destination or ...
[13:41] herman Bergson: Well Itsme..let me put it in a philsophical way....
[13:41] itsme Frederix: your welcome
[13:42] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): well, my analogy would be emotions are wild broncos, the ratio is the cowboy with spurs on top
[13:42] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥
[13:42] herman Bergson: The greatest mystery ever at this moment is how this 1400cc of grey mass in our skull can produce something what we experience as subjective consciousness..
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: hhshahaha
[13:42] Mick Nerido: good Aristotle
[13:43] Bejiita Imako: trying to control it
[13:43] herman Bergson: In some cases that is the picture Aristotle....
[13:43] itsme Frederix: Herman right you are, the other problem is ... is this subjective consiousness in charge or just a farce
[13:43] herman Bergson: But in the described situation of fear for instance it is not.....
[13:43] Bejiita Imako: or a more technically variant
[13:44] herman Bergson: Yes Itsme....a killing question!!!!!!!
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: emotion is like the fission reaction in a nuclear plant and the control rods are the ratio and left by itself it would runaway causing a meltdown and go out of control
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: lust like if emotion is left out of control
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: just
[13:45] itsme Frederix: You know sometimes you've to put the head under the covers (in the sand) to keep it above the water
[13:45] Bejiita Imako: at least in some way
[13:45] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥
[13:45] Mick Nerido: We all agree more is going on in our minds than we know
[13:45] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): itsme
[13:45] Bejiita Imako: haha
[13:45] herman Bergson: That is the rational picture Bejiita....
[13:45] herman Bergson: Emotions already took care of our survival before the ratio entered the arena...
[13:46] itsme Frederix: So the question rises Herman, is ratio a separate aspect or just a tricky emotion?
[13:46] herman Bergson: The point is that the ratio comes into play when basic emotional responses to a situation do not lead to a solution....then we have the "think"
[13:46] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): history has proven that we can survive without ratio, do you suppose we can survive without emotion?
[13:47] herman Bergson: No we cant Aristotle...
[13:47] Mick Nerido: not with much fun
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: ratio i guess is a controller to throttle emotions sort of
[13:47] itsme Frederix: Ari there is no survival without emotion, you would not have the good feeling of it without emotion
[13:47] herman Bergson: all animals are driven by emotions in the sense as we define it here...
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: getting us to think about it logically instead of panicing
[13:48] herman Bergson: animals can have fear, can experience joy and jealousy...
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: ex that example why some people when they see a mouse jump up on a chair and scream instead of thinking rationally that wait mouses aren't dangerous
[13:49] Bejiita Imako: I think they are cute
[13:49] itsme Frederix: Bej that is woman behavior
[13:49] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): uh oh
[13:49] Bejiita Imako: as long they don't crawl from a stinky sewer
[13:49] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): phooey
[13:49] herman Bergson: that sidifficult to determine Bejiita...it can be learnt behavior...
[13:49] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): did Itsme say that?
[13:49] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): it is a myth
[13:49] Qwark Allen: heee
[13:49] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥
[13:49] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yes he did
[13:49] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): hmmm
[13:49] itsme Frederix: Ari just to get some reaction -
[13:49] Bejiita Imako: hehe well yes mostly featured in cartoons
[13:49] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): :)
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: with mouse hunting theme
[13:50] Doggersbank Timmerman (henk.aristocrat): and i think animals have some sort of ratio too. look at lab-rats, monkeys, squirrels. most of the time it is to solve the problem of how to get food
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: and often some lazy cat
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: hha
[13:50] itsme Frederix: so please forgive me and mark it not said
[13:50] herman Bergson: Well…referring to a stinky sewer is something else....
[13:50] herman Bergson: We'll get to that when we'll discuss the emotion of disgust
[13:50] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): :)
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: then mice or btw rats are not too nice
[13:50] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): they are not so bad either
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: but by themselves can be ok
[13:51] herman Bergson: Rats can be very kind animals....
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:51] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): I think that rationally we rely on gathered empical data as to how we reacto to certain dangers
[13:52] herman Bergson: I once had a student in my class with her rat crawling all over her....and into her shirt etc. ^_^
[13:52] Bejiita Imako: hehe
[13:52] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): :)
[13:52] Bejiita Imako: they can be cuddly
[13:52] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:52] itsme Frederix: Ari, but don't forget that very a-rational projections can be made out of empiracal dat
[13:52] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): rats are a very popular pet in the US now
[13:53] herman Bergson: they wer ein Europe a few years ago
[13:53] Qwark Allen: l ☺ ☻ ☺ l
[13:53] Qwark Allen: lol
[13:53] herman Bergson: The basic idea here is that what we define as emotions here are found inall human beings all over the world...
[13:54] herman Bergson: in that sense we are all alike...
[13:54] herman Bergson: Like all elephants are elephants on all continents we humans are justlike that...
[13:54] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): but I do not react to rats and snakes the way others might, so I think it is a basic fear that is diluted with personal experience
[13:55] herman Bergson: Aristotle.....you always have to keep in mind the bell shape curve of statistical distribution....
[13:55] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): time to go
[13:55] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): thanks herman
[13:55] Bejiita Imako: cu gemma
[13:55] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): bye Gemma
[13:55] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): hope to be here thursday'
[13:55] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): bye Gemma
[13:56] herman Bergson: Oh dear...lots track of time Gemma ^_^
[13:56] itsme Frederix: Herman, and keep in mind not every thing is bell-shaped (gaussian) there are black swans
[13:56] bergfrau Apfelbaum: byebye Gemma :-)
[13:56] herman Bergson: Ok Itsme....we'll discuss that later... :-)
[13:56] Qwark Allen: ¸¸.☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`☆ H E R MA N ☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`
[13:56] Qwark Allen: was very intersting as usual
[13:56] Qwark Allen: thank you
[13:56] bergfrau Apfelbaum: and byebye Qwark -)
[13:56] Bejiita Imako: yess
[13:57] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): I like Black Swans better
[13:57] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your participation....it was good again...
[13:57] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ....
[13:57] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): Thank you, Professor
[13:57] Qwark Allen: i wonder where evolution is getting us
[13:57] Doggersbank Timmerman (henk.aristocrat): ㋡
[13:57] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:57] Doggersbank Timmerman (henk.aristocrat): thanks Herman
[13:57] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ***** APPPPPPPLLLLAAAUUUSSSSEEEEEEE***********
[13:57] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman it was very intersting
[13:57] herman Bergson: yes Qwark....it has no direction tho
[13:57] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ty herman
[13:57] Bejiita Imako: Hooo!!!
[13:57] Bejiita Imako: Hoooo!
[13:57] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:57] Qwark Allen: see you next class
[13:58] Bejiita Imako: cu soon
[13:58] Doggersbank Timmerman (henk.aristocrat): goodbye everybody
[13:58] herman Bergson: Bye Bejiita
[13:58] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): bye Bejiita
[13:58] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): bye Bejiita
[13:58] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): bye bye have a nice evening
[13:58] bergfrau Apfelbaum: byebye class :-)) see you Thursday
[13:58] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): a wonderful lecture Herman
[13:58] herman Bergson: Bye Beertje :-)
[13:59] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): bye bergie, stay out of dark alleys
[13:59] herman Bergson: Thank you Aristotle
[13:59] bergfrau Apfelbaum: byebye Aristotle :-))
[13:59] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): :)
[13:59] bergfrau Apfelbaum: lol
[13:59] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): good bye all
[14:00] bergfrau Apfelbaum: byebye itsyou :-) und alles liebe!
[14:00] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ≧▽≦ baba ≧▽≦
[14:00] bergfrau Apfelbaum: herman:-) wir lesen uns
[14:01] itsme Frederix: bye

306: The Brain and Emotion

Emotions are not invented by us. They are not the product of the romantic or poetic soul nor are they the result of beautiful symphonies, which we listen to.

Emotions are biological systems, just like blood pressure or reflexes or the working of enzymes. They are not, as often is assumed, jammers or annoying obstacles that frustrate the ratio.

They are survival machines and we are going to dig into their evolutionary meaning, their material foundation - so, the brain and some molecules -

and we'll focus on their importance for human society and human cooperation.

Let's agree on one point of view: we are weird creatures. Humans are very intelligent and yet so dumb. First of all because we seriously overestimate intelligence with respect to its importance in our daily life.

Secondly because we make so little use of it and if we do, we often do it in the wrong way. Never heard that complaint: "If you know it all so well, why don't you behave accordingly!!!"

We are the only species that applies a scientific name to ourselves: homo sapiens. And in that respect we are not really modest.

The Kit fox got his scientific name Vulpes Macrotis ('macrotis' means 'big ear') due to its big ears. So those big ears are THE characteristic, which make him different from other foxes.

And here we come: homo sapiens, which is Latin for "wise man". Ok, biologically there is nothing wrong with that name. We are the only species, which makes the best of the use of intelligence, rational thinking.

But here is a danger: the danger of generalization. The special feature "reason" is generalized in such a way, that it is regarded as the only mechanism that really controls all our doings

It is a mistake, but it is a generally accepted view through history: the human being controls himself by use of his ratio, his actions are based on reasonable considerations, and his behavior is based on knowledge, analysis and synthesis.

A lot of philosophers have regarded this as quintessential of being human. With respect to historical influence Descartes (1596 - 1650) is probably one of the most important proponents of this view.

His "Cogito, ergo sum" [I think thus I am] deduces the EGO, the Self exclusively from thinking, from the Ratio, where this thinking self even became an immaterial substance alongside of the material world.

However, this view does grave injustice to us as human beings. An impoverished vision, which reduces us to calculating computers.

It is far from true that our behavior is guided by our reason. Evolutionary the development of this reason came last.

Before that we already possessed a beautiful collection of mechanisms, which helped us survive and helped us to become social beings.

And these mechanisms are exactly those features, which are regarded as jammers and obstacles for what many philosophers held the highest: the ratio.

In an other lecture I already mentioned Plato (427 - 347 BC) who describes in the Phaedrus the soul as a chariot, pulled by two horses:

a splendid white horse (willpower and perseverance ) and a lumpish dark one (emotions). The charioteer (the ratio) had to spend almost all his energy on keeping that dark one in line with the white horse.

In other words, the Greek were convinced that when emotions take over the chariot will crash. And not only the old Greek thought so.

Even today a lot of people think,that when emotions take control things will run out of control.

Let me finish with one observation confirmed by research. If you are negotiating with others, the best way to convince them is not to come up again with a new set of reasonable arguments, but by showing your emotions.

[Main source: De Brein machine, Mark Nelissen (2008)]

The Discussion

[13:20] herman Bergson: Thank you...
[13:20] BALDUR Joubert: where did you get the idea that "emotions are survival MACHINES" ISN'T RATHER ratio which act like a machine..input output
[13:21] Mick Nerido: Which emotions ?
[13:21] herman Bergson: That I will explain in the next lectures Baldur :-)
[13:22] BALDUR Joubert: lol.. i'm always a step ahead it seems.. but i'll be patient:)
[13:22] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:22] herman Bergson: The emotions I am thinking of are basic ones like : fear, joy, grief, anger, wondering, disgust, shame, guild and pride
[13:22] herman Bergson: I'll discuss them all in the coming lectures and their meaning form an evolutionary perspective
[13:23] BALDUR Joubert: they all come independent of ratio..and ratio is used to give an explanation afterwards
[13:23] Mick Nerido: That means emotions are more powerful than reason
[13:23] herman Bergson: To some extend you are quite right Baldur....
[13:24] herman Bergson: That is an observation of neurosciences indeed
[13:24] herman Bergson: You could say that Mick, yes
[13:25] herman Bergson: I hope that will become clear in the next lectures
[13:25] oola Neruda: in ways i feel there is as much truth to be found in emotions as in the rational mind... and the german expressionists and abstract expressionists are only a few of the many examples in art... in music it is probably inescapable
[13:26] Mick Nerido: Like in follow your instincts?
[13:26] herman Bergson: What is important to keep in mind for the future is that we gonna discuss the BIOLOGY of the emotions I mentioned...
[13:27] herman Bergson: We dont call it instincts Mick, humans call it intuition ^_^
[13:27] Mick Nerido: lol
[13:27] herman Bergson: But in fact it is the same thing, yes
[13:27] herman Bergson: As I explained in the last lecture...
[13:27] oola Neruda: i believe nietzche leaned toward favoring the emotions over the rational]
[13:28] herman Bergson: the brain is a huge machine operating beyond our control to some extend...
[13:29] BALDUR Joubert: most of our brain operates without us controling..breathing heartbeat..digestion ..mimics..
[13:29] herman Bergson: that is only the top of the iceberg Baldur ^_^
[13:29] BALDUR Joubert: lol.. tight
[13:29] BALDUR Joubert: right
[13:29] Bejiita Imako: ah
[13:30] Mick Nerido: The emotions are like automatic pilot
[13:30] BALDUR Joubert: so what could be interesting is to understand the interactions of emotions and reason in our brain
[13:30] herman Bergson: There you have a good point Mick, because that is how they operate indeed.
[13:31] herman Bergson: They are prior to reason..
[13:31] herman Bergson: When you see a spider you don't start analyzing the situation like..
[13:31] herman Bergson: is is a dangerous spider or not...is it fast or slow..
[13:31] herman Bergson: you just run :-)
[13:32] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): /
[13:32] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): run?
[13:32] herman Bergson: and the basic emotion that is is control is fear...
[13:32] BALDUR Joubert: lol..unless spiders are your field of study:)
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: hehe
[13:32] herman Bergson: Yes Baldur...
[13:32] herman Bergson: saw a guy on TV in a talk show...specialist on spiders...
[13:32] Zinzi Serevi: or when you want to be a brave mother
[13:32] Mick Nerido: The rational mind can overcome emotions like fear of fire as in a fireman
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: question is why is some people so terrified of mice that they jump up on a chair and screams
[13:32] Kyra Neutron: strange humans...cats don't run when they see a spider, they just eat it..
[13:33] Bejiita Imako: heheh
[13:33] herman Bergson: had some examples with him...big ones...
[13:33] Bejiita Imako: mice are not dangerous
[13:33] BALDUR Joubert: same with mice kyra:)
[13:33] Bejiita Imako: I think they are cute
[13:33] herman Bergson: conclusion...creepy fellow
[13:33] Kyra Neutron: and with reptiles baldur :)
[13:33] Bejiita Imako: as long they don't crawl from the stinky sewers
[13:33] Bejiita Imako: eeew
[13:33] herman Bergson: Well Kyra ...that is half true I would say....
[13:33] BALDUR Joubert: many keep reptiles in their homes....
[13:34] herman Bergson: here in Europe there are no dangerous spiders...
[13:34] Kyra Neutron: smart thing to do, keep them safe ;)
[13:34] herman Bergson: but I am sure there are situations where the larger animal runs when it sees a certain spider
[13:34] Kyra Neutron: actually what was my point was that; your primitive brain tells you to "run"
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: hm some spiders esp exotic ones like black widow are deadly dangerous things
[13:35] herman Bergson: True Kyra
[13:35] herman Bergson: We have inherited this from our ancestors through evolution
[13:35] Kyra Neutron: looks at baldur and thinks of his reptile...
[13:35] BALDUR Joubert: don't agree kyra..our so called cultural brains tell us to run cause we lost contact with nature
[13:36] herman Bergson: no Baldur I dont agree.....
[13:36] BALDUR Joubert: why
[13:36] herman Bergson: Here you put the ratio on top of everything again..
[13:36] Mick Nerido: Most people don't keep spiders as pets
[13:36] BALDUR Joubert: no.. i put the emotions on top..
[13:37] BALDUR Joubert: look at egyptian deities..
[13:37] oola Neruda: i agree with Baldur... that we have lost touch with nature... and we fear what we do not know
[13:37] herman Bergson: those are two different things oola...
[13:37] herman Bergson: every organism fears what it doesn't know....response is FEAR....
[13:38] BALDUR Joubert: our relation to nature is basically emotional..
[13:38] herman Bergson: I don't know what Nature means...
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: whats around us in general
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: the environment
[13:38] BALDUR Joubert: smile.. all we can see and hear around us which is not human..
[13:38] herman Bergson: we ARE part of nature...living organisms...not apart of nature
[13:39] Mick Nerido: Nature is the natural world, mother earth
[13:39] Kyra Neutron: and we lost the contact with the mother nature...we call for your pagans back to work..heal our kind..open our eyes..
[13:39] BALDUR Joubert: being part does not mean we experience our surrounding as different from us
[13:39] herman Bergson: so it is us included
[13:39] Kyra Neutron yawns
[13:39] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): what else could we fear but the unknown or the unwelcome potential outcome?
[13:40] Kyra Neutron: it was quite interesting for a first time and i apoligize for my bad behaviour from all
[13:40] BALDUR Joubert: why pagans kyea
[13:40] Kyra Neutron: hope to see you again.
[13:40] herman Bergson: you're always welcome Kyra
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: cu Kyra
[13:40] herman Bergson: But I guess it is your bedtime
[13:40] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): bye Kira
[13:40] Kyra Neutron: ty herman and others , haha yes :)
[13:41] Anja Tigerfish: •´¨*•.¸.♥ Bye Bye ♥.¸.•*¨`•
[13:41] Zinzi Serevi: bye Kyra
[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: cu kyra
[13:41] Anja Tigerfish: Namaarie
[13:41] BALDUR Joubert: she doesn'tl ike reptiles
[13:41] Anja Tigerfish: oooooo
[13:41] BALDUR Joubert: grin.. may be cause she was sitting next to me:)
[13:42] herman Bergson: aww...poor Baldur...you're still human…don't worry
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: hhee
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:42] BALDUR Joubert: lol..i know you have a picture of me where i don't look so human
[13:42] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): you may have a point Baldur
[13:42] herman Bergson: Well...I guess that I have layed out our road for the next lectures....
[13:43] herman Bergson: We'll study the evolutionary and biological basis of emotions.
[13:43] Zinzi Serevi: bye bye all and thanks Herman
[13:43] Anja Tigerfish: •´¨*•.¸.♥ Bye Bye ♥.¸.•*¨`•
[13:43] Bejiita Imako: bye Zinzi
[13:44] Mick Nerido: An emotional thank you!
[13:44] Anja Tigerfish: Namaarie
[13:44] herman Bergson: Next lecture I'll show you the difference between the concepts of emotins and feelings
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: ah ok
[13:44] herman Bergson: Thank you for the nice discussion again....
[13:44] Alarice von Doobie (alarice.beaumont): bye to everyone :-) see you
[13:44] herman Bergson: class dismissed ^_^
[13:44] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): Thank you Herman
[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: Bye all - thankyou herman cu
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: interesting topic Herman
[13:44] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ty herman & Class :-))
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:44] bergfrau Apfelbaum: byebye all!
[13:45] Bejiita Imako: cu soon again ㋡
[13:45] BALDUR Joubert: welldone hermaN..
[13:45] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): I must run.....goodbye all
[13:45] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman..it's very interesting
[13:45] Anja Tigerfish: •´¨*•.¸.♥ Bye Bye ♥.¸.•*¨`•
[13:45] herman Bergson: Thank you Baldur
[13:45] Bejiita Imako: cu Ari
[13:45] Bejiita Imako: and all othersw
[13:45] Anja Tigerfish: Tschüss machs gut bis zum nächsten Mal
[13:45] Anja Tigerfish: bye
[13:45] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): tschuess Anja
[13:45] herman Bergson: Bye Anja
[13:45] Anja Tigerfish: *-*rOfl*-*
[13:45] Anja Tigerfish: *-*r0fl*-*
[13:45] Anja Tigerfish: bye
[13:45] Anja Tigerfish: *LOLO*
[13:46] Anja Tigerfish: ㋡ babble babble babble babble ㋡
[13:46] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): bye bye all:) have a good night
[13:47] herman Bergson: Bye Beertje :-)
[13:48] herman Bergson: Hey Druth....didnt see you..sorry
[13:48] BALDUR Joubert: neither did i ..hi druth:)

305: The Brain in Evolution

In my former lecture I showed you, that the idea we have of ourselves as rational beings with an absolute free will, is not exactly accurate.

If it is for free will, the neurosciences have shown what an immense machinery is already at work in the brain before we enter the realm of conscious action.

As such the idea is not new, It was Freud who forced us to drastically revise our view of the human being as the rational beings with a absolute free will.

A lot of our actions are caused or influenced by what he called the subconscious. A realm of our inner self which we not could enter by means of introspection, for instance.

With respect to the content and ensuing drives generated by this subconscious, Freud was wrong, although there are some features in his theory, that can be interpreted in an other way.

The homo sapiens has come a long way, more than 4 million years of evolution. In the ongoing interaction between organism and environment our brain has developed into the most sophisticated tool for survival.

But keep in mind,that this has been a process of millions of years, while the prefrontal cortex, which is almost 80% of the brain volume, only was fully operational about a 35.000 years ago.

I sometimes wondered, if mankind really was making progress in its development. Sure, we witness an incredible scientific and technological development.

But then I looked at man himself, his literature. There you read always the same stories about love and hate and friendship. Nothing seems the have changed in that respect.

But when you put is in an evolutionary perspective the picture changes completely and it becomes clear which error I made. The brain took millions of years to evolve into what it is now.

What I take into consideration is only the past 2000 years and only the past 300 years are characterized by scientific development and only the past 150 years by technological development.

A huge and fast development which changes our environment in particular. Evolutionary changes take more then thousands of years, while these days environmental changes take less than a 100 years.

The organism homo sapiens has to adapt, while the wiring of his brain is still in an evolutionary stage that was used to a completely different environment. In a way you could say that the brain is evolutionary behind on schedule.

35.000 years ago we lived in caves and survival was our core business. The brain enabled us to develop social behavior, which proved to contribute to the chance to survive.

You could say that the life of the homo sapiens in those days was controlled by instincts, emotions and some reasoning, which enabled him to develop tools.

It leads me to the thought, that the brain structure of those days is largely still the structure of our brain. This could be an explanation for why mankind nowadays shows such a variety in social behavior.

This earth shows social groups from the tribes in the Amazone to the complex social organization of a country like the Netherlands. And all humans use the same tool to survive: the brain.

Freud was right in his observation, that a lot of our behavior is determined by drives which we are not aware of. He was just mistaken about what drives it were.

The brain generates basic emotions, emotions you find in all human beings. Responses to the environment, to the social group, which have a long evolutionary history.

What I mean by emotion, I'll define most accurately in the next lecture to tell it apart from feelings. Thus we'll enter a next stage in our quest to understand the Mystery of the Brain.


The Discussion

[13:21] herman Bergson: Thank you... ㋡
[13:21] herman Bergson: You have the floor
[13:21] herman Bergson: If you have any question or remark...feel free...
[13:21] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): One might come top the conclusion that we are only wolves in sheep's clothing.
[13:22] BALDUR Joubert: how about other survival tools...
[13:22] herman Bergson: Well..to some extend I think so Aristotle....
[13:22] Mick Nerido: The technological revolution and industrialization have changed everything, why did it even happen?
[13:22] herman Bergson: What we call culture and civilization is just a thin layer of varnish...
[13:23] Bejiita Imako: because one of our instincts is to be curious and develop tools
[13:23] Bejiita Imako: unique ability for humans
[13:23] herman Bergson: One of the things in evolution Mick is that it has no goal...
[13:23] herman Bergson: so the question why doesn't apply here
[13:24] Bejiita Imako: and also curiosity, one of our basic drives is to understand things around os and make use of that
[13:24] Mick Nerido: It was not inevitable just a chance occurrance
[13:24] Bejiita Imako: us
[13:24] herman Bergson: unless you ask the question within the historic context
[13:24] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): The evolution of the cerebral cortex is the camoflage for our primal selves
[13:25] herman Bergson: A way to put it Aristotle.. :-)
[13:25] Mick Nerido: Dalphins have complex brains with no technology
[13:25] BALDUR Joubert: i think i repeat myself..but for me brain has not undergone evolution since propably 100000 years..if yes..of minor importance
[13:25] BALDUR Joubert: technology is not evolution..
[13:25] herman Bergson: That is what I have said too Baldur.....
[13:26] herman Bergson: To give you an example...
[13:26] herman Bergson: Based on the evolution of the brain...
[13:26] herman Bergson: the observed which brain areas were active when making a simple fist ax...a shapend stone...
[13:27] Merel Heron: i have the feeling that this way of looking at the evolution is very male like
[13:27] Mick Nerido: I bring up technology because we are all sitting at our computers around the world and yet in the same room connected
[13:27] herman Bergson: from that they could conclude that certain of our ancestors weren't able to make such tools because they not yet possessed those brain areas
[13:27] Merel Heron: being a woman it feels that way
[13:28] herman Bergson: A male like view of evolution ??? Merel?
[13:28] Merel Heron: may be i am wrong i came very late in this conversation
[13:28] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): hmmm
[13:28] Merel Heron: i am from Amsterdam
[13:29] herman Bergson: What suggests the male like approach, Merel?
[13:29] BALDUR Joubert: unfortunately we don't know anything about the brain of our far away ancestors.. just skulls as indicators
[13:29] Merel Heron: and had a study about philosophy
[13:29] Merel Heron: but it is very interesting to listen to you
[13:29] BALDUR Joubert: hm.-.the durch connection..grin
[13:30] herman Bergson: That is not true BALDUR...
[13:30] herman Bergson: we know about the evolution of brain volume pretty much as well as the ensuing skills of the hominides
[13:30] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): Merel may have a valid observation in the maleness of acknowledged views
[13:31] herman Bergson: Just look at the table on the wall
[13:31] Mick Nerido: Is the a male and female mind?
[13:31] Merel Heron: very clinical to me but i can see now your approach is special for the brain
[13:32] herman Bergson: yes Merel...we try to reveal the mystery of the brain.....and in the end the mystery of how the brain can generate consciousness
[13:32] Merel Heron: aha
[13:32] BALDUR Joubert: we know about skills.. but the brain volume differs from one species to another..
[13:32] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): how much subjectivity is involved in the release of newly found 'truths'?
[13:32] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): i didn't tell her that...yet..
[13:32] BALDUR Joubert: some hominoides had bigger brains than we did
[13:32] herman Bergson: But before we reach that I dissect the brain from the neurobiologicalperspective...
[13:33] herman Bergson: /.
[13:33] herman Bergson: Only the Neanderthaler had...was about 1500cc while the homo sapiens had 1400
[13:33] herman Bergson: oops ㋡
[13:33] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): boom
[13:33] bergfrau Apfelbaum: wow :-) schöne aura!! herman
[13:34] Mick Nerido: Is there physical differences between Male and female brains
[13:34] herman Bergson: Danke Bergie
[13:34] BALDUR Joubert: size mick
[13:34] herman Bergson: Not that I know of Mick.....
[13:34] herman Bergson: lol Baldur
[13:34] BALDUR Joubert: smile no joke but fact..
[13:35] herman Bergson: I'll check it out....:)
[13:35] Mick Nerido: I mean if you dissect is the any difference
[13:35] herman Bergson: So far I havent read about it....but I don't assume that it makes much difference…
[13:35] Merel Heron: i am wondering if there is a difference
[13:36] BALDUR Joubert: volume propably doesn't automatically mean more neurons..
[13:36] Mick Nerido: male and females act so differently
[13:36] herman Bergson: I don't think such a difference has any relevance for our cause here
[13:36] BALDUR Joubert: and connections
[13:36] herman Bergson: That difference is interesting for psychologists
[13:36] Merel Heron: no volume must not be the difference
[13:36] Mick Nerido: Hormones...
[13:37] Merel Heron: it is the approach
[13:37] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): thankfully, primally thinking, there remains a differnce between women, cerebrally....women may possess the advantage
[13:37] Merel Heron: i think
[13:37] herman Bergson: Yes Mick...but men as well as women are sentient conscious beings...there is no difference from a philosophical point of view to me
[13:38] Merel Heron: mmmm good to hear
[13:38] herman Bergson: Don't mix up psychology and philosophy....
[13:38] Merel Heron: yes ha ha that is what i did !!1
[13:38] herman Bergson: the philosophical question is about the brain and consciousness.....
[13:39] herman Bergson: and it doesn't matter at all in what kind of body that brain resides ㋡
[13:39] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): I agree, the power to think critically is unisex
[13:39] Mick Nerido: The mystery is that there is conscioucness at all
[13:39] BALDUR Joubert: the emotional side could be different..
[13:40] herman Bergson: More than that Aristotle....we all have what they call the reptilian brain.....
[13:40] herman Bergson: the oldest parts of the brain in an evolutionary sense
[13:40] herman Bergson: This will be our next area of investigation....
[13:41] herman Bergson: And yes...there are differences between men and women....
[13:41] Merel Heron: reptilian brain... I have a look what that is .
[13:41] herman Bergson: But they have special consequences for the evolution of social behavior
[13:42] BALDUR Joubert: snakes merel.. eve and the snake..got us the reptile brain
[13:42] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): I am sure the female reptilian brain is now scaly like a mans
[13:42] herman Bergson: It is a name for the limbic system and what is below that part of the brain
[13:42] Merel Heron: mmmmmm thanks
[13:43] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): yes! the limbic system
[13:43] herman Bergson: We will discuss the man/woman differences....
[13:43] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): the go between
[13:43] herman Bergson: especially if you go back to the early homo sapiens... and procreation
[13:44] BALDUR Joubert: this could be the next 100 lectures herman-man/woman difference
[13:44] herman Bergson: No ..philosophically uninteresting unless you refer to our Women Philosophers project...
[13:45] herman Bergson: There you can read about the shameful thing named male philosopher...to beginwith Aristotle...
[13:45] herman Bergson: But that is all in the blog ㋡
[13:45] BALDUR Joubert: just because the ancient philosophers ignored the subject..doesn't mean it could not have philosophical interest:)
[13:45] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): yes, I remember :)
[13:46] herman Bergson: The ancient philosophers didn't ignore it at all Baldur..THAT is the problem...
[13:46] herman Bergson: Aristotle describes the woman as a being closer to an animal than to a human
[13:46] BALDUR Joubert: may be not ignore..but they were ignorants on the subject :)
[13:47] Merel Heron: oh la la
[13:47] herman Bergson: and that idea was (eagerly) adopted by the roman catholics....
[13:47] herman Bergson: with al consequences...
[13:47] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): some people do think that in these days too
[13:47] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): males have shown their desire to maintainthe status quo at any cost
[13:47] herman Bergson: that education was a wast eon women....
[13:47] herman Bergson: to beginwith
[13:48] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): cost to the revelation truth
[13:48] Merel Heron: this is a very interesting statement
[13:48] herman Bergson: It took 1500 centuries before the first woman attended formal education
[13:48] Mick Nerido: Are there noted female philosophers?
[13:48] herman Bergson: A lot....
[13:48] BALDUR Joubert: whats really scary is that in ancient egypt the position of women was vbery close to our time
[13:49] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): indeed, you should read the blog of the Herman's lectures on them
[13:49] herman Bergson: Related to our subject here...Patricia Churchland....
[13:49] herman Bergson: She introduced the discipline of neurophilosophy....
[13:49] herman Bergson: If I am not mistaken she published the book with that title in 1986
[13:49] herman Bergson: Very influential
[13:49] Merel Heron: what about Heloise?
[13:50] herman Bergson: Teh girlfriend of Abelard?
[13:50] Merel Heron: yes the girlfriend
[13:51] herman Bergson: Of course through history there were women who helped themselves with education.....
[13:51] herman Bergson: but what it is all about is that education for women is socially accepted...
[13:51] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): education and enlightnement are the keys
[13:51] herman Bergson: that had to wait till 1850 or so
[13:52] herman Bergson: So to conclude....
[13:52] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): the denial of education are censorship or it is the way to hold folks back
[13:52] herman Bergson: The difference between the male and female brain is from a philosophical point of view irrelevant... ㋡
[13:53] Mick Nerido: Thats good news
[13:53] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:53] herman Bergson: My pleasure Mick ^_^
[13:53] herman Bergson: Well thank you all for this pleasant discussion ....
[13:54] Bejiita Imako: |:)
[13:54] Bejiita Imako: nice
[13:54] Bejiita Imako: as usual
[13:54] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): Thank you Professor!
[13:54] herman Bergson: let's see what evolution will tell us further about the brain next lecture
[13:54] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): and....'thank goodness for little girls'
[13:54] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:54] herman Bergson: Class dismissed
[13:54] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:54] Mick Nerido: You were great as usual
[13:54] Bejiita Imako: YAY! (yay!)
[13:54] herman Bergson: thank you Mick
[13:54] Josiane Llewellyn: Thanks professor, everyone
[13:54] BALDUR Joubert: grin a maurice chevalier fan..:)
[13:55] Merel Heron: thank you Professor
[13:55] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): :)
[13:55] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): indeed
[13:55] Merel Heron: something to think about !!!!
[13:55] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:55] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:55] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): it was very interesting..thank you Herman
[13:55] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): and a marvelous thing this 'thinking'
[13:55] herman Bergson: There is a blog Merel....
[13:55] Bejiita Imako: ok cu soon all ㋡
[13:55] Ciska Riverstone: Thank You Herman - thanx all - enjoy the rest of the day /night
[13:55] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thanks, herman! was very interesting!
[13:55] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): bye Ciska
[13:56] herman Bergson: Thank you ciska....
[13:56] bergfrau Apfelbaum: and class :-)
[13:56] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): thank you Bergie
[13:56] Bejiita Imako: cu ㋡
[13:56] herman Bergson: http://thephilososphyclass.blogspot.com
[13:56] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): bye Bejiita
[13:56] herman Bergson: Bye Bejiita
[13:56] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): bye Bejitta

303: The Brain and the Liar

The title of this project is "The Mystery of the Brain". This means that it is not a 100% philosophical project, but an interdisciplinary one which involves, evolutionary psychology, neurosciences, cognitive psychology and philosophy.

Our premise is a materialistic starting point: We are our brain. All what we call mental is produced by that brain. Of course we'll discuss this premise extensively, but not yet.

With the topic of lie detection we enter a very sensitive area. What has been hidden inside our skull since the origins of mankind, can now be revealed.

Everything that we regard as private, can be shown in an fMRI scan. Behind me you see the picture of the brain of a liar.

There also other techniques, which use electrodes on de skull. And it is already discovered, that it takes 200 milliseconds more to prepare a lie in the brain than the truth.

This neurorevolution raises serious questions about the relation between the state and the individual. Where begins our privacy? Can we be forced to undergo a fMRI scan?

And what will happen in court? Has the accused to allow a fMRI scan to demonstrate if he is lying. And the witnesses, shouldn't they be scanned too?

What about the concept of guilt. Suppose we scan the brain of a murderer and ask him : "Did you kill that person?" and he answers "No, I didn't" (even tho we have a video of his crime) and his brain shows no special activity at all, not the "lie pattern"?

The more we know how the brain works, how our actions are caused by our brain, the more urgent become questions after personal autonomy, responsibility and free will.

By inventing the subconscious Freud already questioned our free will and responsibility for our actions. The deeper we can look into our brain and see causes and effects, the bigger such questions become.

Patricia Churchland, neurophilosopher at the University of San Diego, suggest that it is about time that we revise our metaphysical concept of free will.

Her idea is that instead we should talk about self-control. A less vague quality, which as we can see, manifests itself in varying degrees.

Neuroscientists can specify which brain structures are involved in the control of all kinds of behavior and how they can be weakened or reinforced.

The activities concerning lie detection have gone commercial already. We keep on dreaming of unmasking the lie. Cephos is one of these companies, which will help you.

On their homepage we read:
- quote
Cephos employs experienced professionals who are recognized as experts in their respective fields and are available to testify in court.

We have developed the latest, most scientifically advanced, brain imaging techniques for scientifically accurate lie detection.

The methods have been featured in international print, national television shows and we have been awarded U.S. patents based on our technology.

The array of services we offer allows the most innovative approaches to uncover the truth. That's why law firms, corporations, and individuals turn to Cephos for professional, responsible, and dedicated services.
-end quote.

Go now to http://www.cephoscorp.com/ and watch the 4 minutes video. See for yourself…… and if you haven't had enough, have a look at http://www.brainwavescience.com/ or read this article http://www.damninteresting.com/brain-fingerprinting or http://www.cognitiveliberty.org/issues/mental_surveillance.htm


The Discussion

[13:25] herman Bergson: But have a look at that video...
[13:26] herman Bergson: I'll wait the 4 minutes
……………

[13:31] herman Bergson: Did you look at the video?
[13:31] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): yes
[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: yes
[13:31] Adriana Jinn: yes
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:31] herman Bergson: It scared me...
[13:31] Anja Tigerfish: yes
[13:31] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): why?
[13:31] Mick Nerido: very scary...
[13:32] herman Bergson: Well...first...the blood pumping theory….
[13:32] herman Bergson: completely unclear what areas of the brain were active and why
[13:32] Mick Nerido: A persons mind is private like his home . No?
[13:32] herman Bergson: well Mick..as you saw....his wife lives there now too ^_^
[13:33] Mick Nerido: lol
[13:33] Bejiita Imako: i guess if u in general answer uncomfortable questions will give same activity in blood flow no matter if true or false
[13:33] herman Bergson: Could be true Bejiita
[13:33] Bejiita Imako: and thus give uncorrect conclusions
[13:33] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): he already knew the questions
[13:34] herman Bergson: Yes that is the procedure...
[13:34] herman Bergson: the client studies the questions in advance
[13:34] Bejiita Imako: that seemed a bit wierd too
[13:34] herman Bergson: But what was so scary to me was that this couple came for an answer and in fact didnt get it...
[13:35] herman Bergson: No no....it is good to have knowledge of the questions....the brain can't lie...
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: meaning the company is a scam thats just after your wallet
[13:35] herman Bergson: to some extend I would say yes...
[13:36] herman Bergson: To give you a reason....
[13:36] herman Bergson: when you swallow during answering the questions...your brain will become active
[13:36] herman Bergson: and screws up the test because of the 'blood pumping'
[13:36] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): omg
[13:37] Adriana Jinn: well
[13:37] Mick Nerido: Like lie dectators, some can fool it
[13:37] herman Bergson: yes Beertje...you must absolutel lie still.....not a muscle may move
[13:37] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): if you talk you move
[13:38] herman Bergson: answers are given by mouseclick....know motoric part of the brain
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: hmm yes also do fMRIs make awful loud banging noises due to the superconductors turning on and of and stressing the brain
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: i thing even u need hearing protection as it can be as loud as 120 db
[13:39] herman Bergson: Well.....at least you have seen a glimpse of our future...
[13:39] Mick Nerido: Could this be used in capital punishment as a recourse of last resort?
[13:39] herman Bergson: Yes...Mick.....
[13:39] herman Bergson: The courts in the US do not yet accept this evidence....
[13:39] Mick Nerido: If you lie the machine kills you
[13:40] herman Bergson: that will be the 2.0 model Mick
[13:40] Mick Nerido: lol
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: haha
[13:40] herman Bergson: we are just working on version 1.0
[13:40] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): you laugh..but it COULD be possible
[13:40] herman Bergson: oh yes....
[13:41] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): who is to establsih that the machine is 100%accurate? there seems to be always an element of doubt
[13:41] Mick Nerido: brave new world indeed
[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: think so too Aristotle
[13:41] herman Bergson: as I said Aristotle...when you swallow during the test all goes wrong...
[13:41] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): especially in a capital punishment decision
[13:41] Mick Nerido: best 2 out of 3 tests
[13:41] herman Bergson: But look at the Brain Fingerprinting material....
[13:42] herman Bergson: the brain produces certain waves when seeing something familiar
[13:42] herman Bergson: so when you show the criminal the face of his victim the brain will react if he has seen that face
[13:43] herman Bergson: But what if it is the face of his sister?
[13:43] herman Bergson: And so on....
[13:43] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): I think commercially it will be very beneficial for marketers, in the legal arena I am extremely supect
[13:43] Bejiita Imako: yes can be anyone he knows then he react to
[13:44] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): suspect
[13:44] herman Bergson: However...this is our future....the brain will be the place to be...
[13:44] Mick Nerido: I'll buy stock in Cephos
[13:44] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): Orwell was a smart man
[13:45] herman Bergson: What was most remarkable was that as soon as someone had found something in lie detection....they went commercial...started a company...
[13:45] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): Big Brother is watching you?
[13:45] herman Bergson: Cephos and Brain Fingerprinting are the leading companie in the business...
[13:45] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): and manipulating you for sure, Beertje
[13:45] Mick Nerido: there goes job interview lies
[13:46] herman Bergson: yes indeed Mich....thy just put you in a scanner
[13:46] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): LOL who will find jobs now?
[13:46] Mick Nerido: the ones who lie least?
[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: or most
[13:46] herman Bergson: no..only scanner operators
[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: depends on job.
[13:47] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): are they the best employees, tath is the philosophical question
[13:47] Mick Nerido: Buy you way in
[13:47] herman Bergson: Main question is privacy.....
[13:47] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): and when Cephos is lying?
[13:48] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): lol
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: hehehe
[13:48] herman Bergson: It will suffer of blood pumping Beertje :-)
[13:48] herman Bergson: But just think about it.....
[13:48] herman Bergson: what has been our personal domain since the beginning of mankind....
[13:48] Mick Nerido: good for airline scanning
[13:48] herman Bergson: is going to be invaded too
[13:49] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): mankind has always methods to pull the truth out of you..
[13:49] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): Shall we all have an international barcode with the results of our last MRI for all to read our 'label'
[13:50] herman Bergson: Was just thinking that Beertje....they dont need to torture the person anymore when they can use the fMRI scanner
[13:50] Mick Nerido: good idea Aristotle
[13:50] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): hmm..the only possitive thing
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: as long u can get the technology working
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: as said that damn "blood pumping" theory doesnt hold at all
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: need some better stuff
[13:51] herman Bergson: It scared me Bejiita
[13:51] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): what about people with a high blood presure?
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: or everyone will be accuseed to be a terrorist
[13:51] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): wont need religion anymore,the barcode will say whether we are good or bad
[13:51] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): all hail the MRI
[13:51] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): no..ari...it just tells us if we are lying
[13:52] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): telling the truth about our misbehave is the truth
[13:52] Adriana Jinn: .))))
[13:52] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): and the neuroscientists become the new clergy
[13:52] herman Bergson: Well my friends......
[13:53] herman Bergson: yes Aristotle...
[13:53] Mick Nerido: Mind priests
[13:53] herman Bergson: I never ended a lecture with an uneasy feeling
[13:53] herman Bergson: but this time I do....
[13:53] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): did you tell the truth about this Herman?
[13:54] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): LOL
[13:54] Anja Tigerfish: hahahahaaaa
[13:54] Bejiita Imako: hahaha
[13:54] Ciska Riverstone laughs
[13:54] herman Bergson: feels his blood pumping...
[13:54] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): scan his barcode
[13:54] herman Bergson: Yes I did Beertje
[13:54] Mick Nerido: one of the best lectures I heard
[13:54] Bejiita Imako: aaa indeed
[13:54] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): smiles
[13:54] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:54] Mick Nerido: No lie
[13:54] Adriana Jinn: very interesting yes
[13:54] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your participation...
[13:55] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ^_^
[13:55] Ciska Riverstone: interessting as always - thank you herman
[13:55] herman Bergson: That is no lie!
[13:55] Bejiita Imako: but hope for sure this detector practice wont develop in a bad way
[13:55] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman:)
[13:55] Adriana Jinn: thanks much herman
[13:55] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): very stimulating Professor, thank you
[13:55] Bejiita Imako: noone is messing inside my mind without permission at least
[13:55] Bejiita Imako: picking out whatever they want
[13:56] Bejiita Imako: and not my harddrives either
[13:56] Bejiita Imako: my stuff is my stuff
[13:56] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): I fear they mess with our minds straight from the cradle
[13:56] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ty, herman and class! was interesting, again once!
[13:56] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes
[13:56] Bejiita Imako: very
[13:56] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:56] Ciska Riverstone: Have a great day/ night everyone
[13:56] herman Bergson: Thank you all...
[13:56] Adriana Jinn: bye all and thanks
[13:57] herman Bergson: Bye Adriana
[13:57] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): bye Adriana
[13:57] Bejiita Imako: cu soon again
[13:57] Anja Tigerfish: •´¨*•.¸.♥ Bye Bye ♥.¸.•*¨`•
[13:57] Bejiita Imako: hugs all
[13:57] Anja Tigerfish: yeeahhh...huggy and kissy for all
[13:57] bergfrau Apfelbaum: see u hursday
[13:57] bergfrau Apfelbaum: :-)
[13:57] Anja Tigerfish: *-*rOfl*-*
[13:57] Anja Tigerfish: *-*r0fl*-*
[13:57] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): bye bye:)
[13:57] bergfrau Apfelbaum: bybye all
[13:57] Anja Tigerfish: Tschüss machs gut bis zum nächsten Mal
[13:57] Anja Tigerfish: bye
[13:57] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): I willsee if I can even TP now LOL
[13:57] Anja Tigerfish: ______ ()*"*()___
[13:57] Anja Tigerfish: _____("(~¸¸~)")___
[13:57] Anja Tigerfish: Müde bin ich,geh zur Ruh,
[13:57] Anja Tigerfish: mache meine Augen zu.
[13:57] Anja Tigerfish: Erst das Rechte,dann das Linke,
[13:57] Anja Tigerfish: Gute Nacht und winke winke
[13:57] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): Good Bye!
[13:57] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): gentle folks
[13:58] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): Good Bye!
[13:58] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): Good Byeeeee!!!
[13:58] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): biss zum naechsten mahl Bergie
[13:58] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): EVERYBODY!!! :D
[13:58] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): thanks again Herman
[13:58] herman Bergson: You are welcome, Aristotle