Friday, October 5, 2018

737: Is Trump changing history.....?

Last Tuesday, September 25, something happened, which is closely related to the goal of our present project.
   
We try to understand in what way the 20th century has been the base and birthplace of the 21st century.
  
This is especially relevant, because in the period of 1900 till 2000 there has changed so much more in many areas of life than in all previous centuries together.
   
The issue at stake here is the nation-state. The world is divided into 195 countries of which 193 are a member of the United Nations.
  
For us the existence of states is a matter of course and that states have rights and have to be respected, too.
   
However, when we go back in history the situation looked quite different. In the 16th century the rule in Europe was "Bellum omnium contra omnes" (war of all against all).
  
The Peace of M├╝nster was a treaty between the Lords States General of the United Netherlands and the Spanish Crown after 80 years of war (1648).
   
This marked a significant point in the transition to sovereignty based on states rather than individuals, kings, royalty e.g. the Hapsburgs.
  
Sovereignty can be defined as the idea that there is a final and absolute political authority in the political community and no final and absolute authority exists elsewhere.
   
Thus the idea of the sovereign state emerged. Still far from democratic as we know them now, but yet.
   
The 18th century shows a landscape of tough regional divide and rule politics, but political leaders kept holding on to this idea of the sovereign state.
  
After Napoleon this idea of the sovereign state was consolidated in the right of independence and non-intervention.

The early 20-th century shows an ideological survival-of-the-fittest battle, which resulted in the First World War. 
  
But what was kept alive was the belief in the sovereign state, where the community has the power in independence and non-intervention.
   
World War One made people aware of the idea, that independence and non-intervention to fight each other, is not necessarily the highest attainable.

This brought president Wilson of the USA to reveal his list of "Fourteen Points" for a post war settlement.
   
Wilson urged the establishment of an international governing body of united nations for the purpose of guaranteeing 
   
political independence and territorial integrity to great and small countries alike. His idea gave birth to the short-lived League of Nations.
  
A few of Wilson's points: 
   
Point 2 - Freedom of navigation on all seas., 
   
Point 3   : Free trade among nations and an end to all economic barriers between countries.
   
Point 4   : Countries to reduce armaments and weapons to a level required for public safety.
   
Point 14 : A League of Nations should be created to guarantee the political and territorial independence of all states.
  
Point 14 didn't have a long life after the Peace Treaty of Versailles, but after the disaster of  World War Two, we created at least the United Nations.
    
As I said, 193 of the 195 on this globe are a member. And there is the belief, that ultimately, if you want to live in peace, 
   
you have to transcend the nation-state and put overall control in the hands of a United Nations, the dream of  president Wilson in 1919 in Versailles.
   
And then speaks the president of the US  to the General Assembly of the UN on last September 25. I'll just quote:
    
"For too long, the American people were told that mammoth multinational trade deals, unaccountable international tribunals, 
     
and powerful global bureaucracies were the best way to promote their success. 
   
Today, if we do not invest ourselves, our hearts, and our minds in our nations, if we will not build strong families, safe communities, 
  
and healthy societies for ourselves, no one can do it for us.
  
We cannot wait for someone else, for faraway countries or far-off bureaucrats — we can’t do it. 
   
We must solve our problems, to build our prosperity, to secure our futures, or we will be vulnerable to decay, domination, and defeat.
  
(...) Now we are calling for a great reawakening of nations, for the revival of their spirits, their pride, their people, and their patriotism."
   
The message is clear: no powerful global bureaucracies (read UN, International Court of Justice, Security Counsil and the like),
   
but back to 20th century protectionism, nationalism and national "Alleingang" /solism. In other words "America First !"



The Discussion
   
[13:32] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.
[13:32] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ice
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nice
[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[13:33] CB Axel: I say, fine. Kick the US out of the UN. If Trump wants America first then he can have America alone.
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): nono
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): think of us!!
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): woudl be terrible
[13:33] CB Axel: I am us, Gemma, and I give up.
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): cant do that that is what i mean
[13:33] herman Bergson: No....accept the suffering and see  Mr. T as a transient phenomenon
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hopefully
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Just hope they kick Trump out soon
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but the republican party is no longer the Republican parry
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and into the asylu where he belongs
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it is a mess of trump
[13:34] herman Bergson: The New York Times showed what a great businessman Trump is...
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): asylum
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh yes
[13:34] CB Axel: Let the GOP have their White House, their, Congress, and their Supreme Court. When they've run this country into the ground they can curl up, die, and let the rest of us have our country back.
[13:34] Ciska Riverstone: I think the reaction of the UN was clear - they understand the difference between trump and the American people.
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i loved that they laughed
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): was a great moment!!!
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): all trump thinks of is himself and his wallet
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nothing else
[13:35] CB Axel: Gemma, the Republican party is the Republican party it has been for decades now.
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): he just uses the entire US to his advantage
[13:35] herman Bergson: But keep in mind....this all is loved by Russia....it will only stimulate this decay of the US
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): for a while but not as it is today
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and isn so uses the entire world
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): they did have moments of being fair
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): no moer
[13:35] CB Axel: It's the party of privileged people wanting to keep their privilege to the detriment of everyone else.
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): socially fair
[13:36] herman Bergson: But let's stop about Trump....
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:36] herman Bergson: enough...
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we all get carried away
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its greed, thats all it is
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess
[13:36] herman Bergson: Stop Bejiita....
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Wilson ws an interesting man
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): new book about him i want to read
[13:36] herman Bergson: because there is philosophically a more important issue here at stake...
[13:37] CB Axel: Trump is an ass. We can all agree on that. But he is not the disease. He is only a symptom.
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the issue......
[13:37] Wife Stepford is online.
[13:37] herman Bergson: the sovereign state....the conviction that it has its borders....that it has to be respected in its independency
[13:37] herman Bergson: Just think.....
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): however after the 1st war  the Made up borders
[13:38] herman Bergson: we are used to maps...nice charts...
[13:38] Guitar Stantz is online.
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:38] herman Bergson: But nowhere on this globe you can see these borderlines from above :-)
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): very true
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its just defined by us
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) whispers: the aliens wont see them either
[13:39] herman Bergson: so....the idea of THE STATE and BORDERS is our invention to organize living together on this globe
[13:39] CB Axel: When we were kids my brothers and I would tell our little sister that the reason you can't see the line between the states of Illinois and Iowa is because it was under the Mississippi River.
[13:39] herman Bergson: That is why they always get lost Gemma
[13:39] CB Axel whispers: We were kinda dicks to her. LOL
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep
[13:40] herman Bergson: Smart move CB :-)
[13:40] herman Bergson: But let me point you at one thing.....
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): there is nothing aying physically that THIS is Texas and THIS is Iowa ect
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): saying
[13:40] CB Axel: That's a good point, Gemma. When the alien invasion comes, they won't recognize borders and will wipe us all out together. °͜°
[13:41] herman Bergson: some people think this world is going down the drain and Mr. T. is helping to it...
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): very true
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or bring us together
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aa hopefully the latter
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i dont believe that last statement
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not going down the drain
[13:41] Quistis Shippe is online.
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): huge problems but
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:41] herman Bergson: No ..indeed Gemma....
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): things are actually better all over the world than they used to be
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i think
[13:42] herman Bergson: The ïnvention"of the sovereign state....the acceptence of NO-INTERVENTION created a lot of peace....
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:42] herman Bergson: YEs GEmma..I totally agree
[13:43] herman Bergson: trump or no trump....
[13:43] herman Bergson: He creates damage to the system but it will pass and we will recover
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hopefully yes
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): things will start turn in right directin in general
[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: better trade war then bomb war.
[13:44] herman Bergson: He sees sovereign states as competing companies and that is what they should do....compete with each other
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well thats true
[13:44] CB Axel: But he's not the one damaging it. The GOP and their policy of take away people's rights is what's damaging it.
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the problem is he dont want any competition
[13:44] herman Bergson: but countries aren't companies...
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:44] herman Bergson: they are cultures...
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but Trump seems to see everything as a cash cow one way or another to make him more money
[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: trump does not get that china and russia have a culture yes
[13:45] herman Bergson: For the time being the US has become for me a kind of soap...sorry if you feel offended
[13:45] CB Axel: The whole GOP is like that, Bejiita.
[13:45] CB Axel: Soap?
[13:45] Anuska (anuska.loon) is offline.
[13:46] herman Bergson: Indeed Ciska.....
[13:46] herman Bergson: He even doesnt see that China is taking over in a lot of places
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Africa
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): lots of places
[13:46] herman Bergson: Yes
[13:47] herman Bergson: But that are black people, Gemma
[13:47] CB Axel: Trump doesn't recognize American culture. His only "culture" is money.
[13:47] herman Bergson: not interesting
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): seems so indeed CB
[13:47] herman Bergson: What he got from his father....
[13:48] herman Bergson: I wonder if he made any money himself, reading the NYT
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the manufactured borders created after the wars are now what is causing many problems in countries
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): now
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): too bad
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true
[13:48] herman Bergson: Not really , no
[13:48] herman Bergson: But the other thing is....
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i believe that in the middle east
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and eastern europe
[13:49] herman Bergson: the multinationals laugh at the sovereign state :-)
[13:49] CB Axel nods
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed, instead of getting together we fight th "others" on the other side of our made up border
[13:49] herman Bergson: They are already in a kind of global governmetal relation  with eachother
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh yes
[13:50] herman Bergson: They even attack sovereign states....
[13:50] CB Axel: Yes. Instead of a United Nations, they have a United Corporations.
[13:50] herman Bergson: Sue them because they changed laws which affect their local profits
[13:51] herman Bergson: There is some special court for such cases....and countries have to pay the companies
[13:52] herman Bergson: Well..guess we hit the mark again today :-)
[13:52] Ciska Riverstone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsP0P6qgUTA still relevant
[13:53] herman Bergson: Time to go and enjoy the weekend, I'd say :-))
[13:53] Ciska Riverstone:
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oki
[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:53] herman Bergson: So....class dismissed...
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well interesting again
[13:53] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman
[13:53] herman Bergson: and thank you all again for your participation
[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[13:53] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.
[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): off to the fish
[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bye for now
[13:54] herman Bergson: Happy fishing again Gemma
[13:54] Ciska Riverstone: have a good rest of the week folks
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu all
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): same
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): have a good weekend
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:54] CB Axel: See you all next Tuesday if I don't lose track of the time again. °͜°
[13:54] CB Axel: I've started setting an alarm clock. °͜°