From September 1969 till September 1977 I studied six years and worked two years at the university.
It was the period, that two names were famous, at least among left wing oriented students. Those names were Herbert Marcuse (1898 - 1979) and Erich Fromm (1900 - 1980).
Karl Marx's theory of alienation describes the estrangement of people from aspects of their "species-essence",
as a consequence of living in a society of stratified social classes. The alienation from the self is a consequence
of being a mechanistic part of a social class, the condition of which estranges a person from their humanity.
According to Marcuse, Marx had essentially meant that people under capitalism could not find satisfaction in their labor.
Since this would be inherent in the capitalist relations of production, the alienation could only be lifted by its overthrow.
Marcuse developed the concept in such a way that it primarily received psychological content.
Moreover, alienation would not necessarily or first of all be caused by capitalism, but by modern life in general.
Marcuse's point is that while work is necessary for the maintenance of life, in our society there has been a transition
from the basic amount of work needed to maintain life to what we might call surplus work.
There is a distinction here between the work that is needed for one's satisfaction and work that is needed for the apparatus, the system.
The desires of the individual must conform to the desires of the apparatus.
The individual must define himself as the apparatus defines all humanity. As Marcuse puts it, “he desires what he is supposed to desire”
This more psychological interpretation led to theories in which a link between Freud and Marx was established.
Although Erich Fromm would later write several books based on this combination, the idea came from Marcuse.
He regarded the teachings of Freud and Marx as two sides of the same coin.
The way in which the unconscious primary urges, and especially the life drive or libido and the death instinct or urge to destroy of Freud
manifested themselves, according to him, depended on the social framework in which they were embedded.
As civilization progressed, Freud had already stated, repression necessarily increased; more and more aggression would therefore be produced and ventilated.
Freud thought that this aggression could also be managed in the right way within the existing society.
But according to Marcuse, the pent-up aggression would turn inward and outward: self-destruction and the destruction of others.
The urge for destruction, therefore, would lead to revolution just like Marx's inherent capitalist contradictions.
And this is what makes me wonder. Men like Marcuse and from present an analysis of the human condition
and in those days people said, yes you are right....we are alienated of our "species-essence"
and what is the result in the 21st century? We are up to our neck slaves of neo-liberalism, which lacks any feeling of solidarity or empathy.
A mystery to me. The revolutions never came.....
Thank you for your attention again...
The Discussion
[13:19] herman Bergson: The floor is yours :-)
[13:19] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano): The revolutions never came because Marx didn't understand that humans are not only elements of a class.
[13:20] herman Bergson: The quintessential question the Frankfurter Schule asked was...how should we live together as a society
[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not yet answered
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as i get it today the apparatus would be the stock owners and when they want more money they sack you from work, shut down the factory and move it to a low cot contry and defend it with "needing to be competitive globally" = getting THEM more money
[13:20] herman Bergson: True Sousi
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): here in sweden we see the same pattern, the industry moving to china leaving more and more unemployed here
[13:21] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano): Societies have also failed to curb oligopolies and monopolies.
[13:21] herman Bergson: My question is....where did all these ideas and believes of the 70s go?
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not only curb but encourage
[13:22] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano): Because the collectivist states of the societies see single negotiating partners an easier framework
[13:22] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano): Capitalism has lost the idea of competition, arguably a huge factor in justifying popular support
[13:22] herman Bergson: You mean like Trump leaves all international treaties, Sousi?
[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ha
[13:23] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano): Well, not quite. See... competition is a vital part of capitalism.
[13:23] herman Bergson: Yes but only within the system
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it gotten out of hand
[13:24] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano): Competition and ideally low barriers of entry into a market mean that anyone can in theory join in and be successful.
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): in theory
[13:24] herman Bergson: Yes but not with China for instance
[13:24] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano): Shutting down competition means allowing corporations to do whatever they like, stuff they never would get away with in a competition-driven market
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is very very true
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): monopolies always cause this
[13:25] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano): China is standing before a precipice of economic meltdown now
[13:25] herman Bergson: Like Facebook perhaps?
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we saw it in the early 30's
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and are seeing it again now
[13:25] herman Bergson: or Google
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the risk is there for sure
[13:26] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano): Lessons are never learned, but need attention again and again
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so we see from this whole project
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or risk its not about if but WHEN everything will crash down again
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cause everyone just wants MORE and MORE!
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we are repeating so many of the mistakes of the last century
[13:26] Ciska Riverstone: economists always argued with the "total market" - now that we almost have it because everyone can google the best price and import from Uzbekistan the economies do no longer regulate themselves.
[13:26] herman Bergson: But it still doesn't answer the question of today....
[13:26] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano): Well, greed is good, Particle =)
[13:27] herman Bergson: Where have all these ideas of e.g. Marcuse gone...his analyses of the society?
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): not if it means all companies move to one place leaving everyone else without jobs
[13:27] herman Bergson: and political conclusions derived from that
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): swallowed up
[13:27] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano): Perhaps they were more children of their time than they believed?
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): perhaps in the wars??
[13:28] herman Bergson: Marcuse was after WW2 Gemma, like Fromm was too
[13:28] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano): Particle: Shut down the monopolies, and the problem is solved.
[13:28] herman Bergson: They were my 'heroes' in the 70s
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): maybe hopeful
[13:29] herman Bergson: As I pointed out earlier....
[13:29] herman Bergson: in Europe...almost all social democrat parties are wiped out
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well facebook is facing the issues of overreaching now... we will see what happens to them
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): might be the beginning
[13:29] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano): Social democracy did their job. The worker class became middle class.
[13:29] herman Bergson: parties that at least had accepted some ideas of MArx or MArcuse
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah but that is now also being watched
[13:30] herman Bergson: so again..what is happening ?
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the middle class is falling back
[13:30] herman Bergson: That is indeed one good point....
[13:30] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano): True... but the worker class got more or less wiped out
[13:30] herman Bergson: the gap between the rich and poor is increasing...
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): big issue
[13:31] herman Bergson: The working class got wealthy to some extend....
[13:31] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano) nods
[13:31] herman Bergson: a house, a car, good education, healthcare...at least in my country :-)
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): in a way that is why i have hope that this outlook will change .... watching wht the us is going through ... brexit effect ...
[13:31] herman Bergson: in Europe actually
[13:32] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano): Once a movement reaches its goal, it falls down.
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): perhaps the pendulum will begin to swing
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:32] herman Bergson: Interesting point Sousi....
[13:32] herman Bergson: Means that the Brexit can end in a hufge collapse
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep
[13:33] herman Bergson: But nevertheless....
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): someone made a point last week in a radio program i was hearing that if there were a war now the USA would probably not win
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): which sounds amazing
[13:33] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano): Herman... Another issue with Marcuse and Fromm may be that Freud is seen very differently these days. He was huge in the 70s, but with the advent of CBT, the scientific framework for his support was waning ever since the 80s
[13:33] herman Bergson: We still seem to live in a world at the moment where social solidarity, equal chances, mutual help and support seems to diminnish by the day
[13:34] herman Bergson: Sousi...to be honest....the name of Freud is misspelled :-)
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): perhaps as Sousi said ... reached their goals and now?
[13:34] herman Bergson: Should be written as Fraud :-))
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well trump continues to boast how good he is in everything but in Sweden we have a say, something like the one gaping after much loose the entire bit
[13:35] elisabeth3210: we are being conditioned by technologies which dissociate us from our fellow human beings,
[13:35] herman Bergson: But dont forget....
[13:35] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano): Gemma, you mean unlike Korea, Vietnam, Iraq 1, Iraq 2, Afghanistan...?
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:35] elisabeth3210: technologies that just want to make us click ads and buy stuff
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and he gapes after much and will (hopefully) loose it all
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): were we trying to win something?
[13:35] herman Bergson: Yes Elisabeth that is another problem of today
[13:36] elisabeth3210: its a perfect example of how economy is shaping our neural networks
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): all stupid mistakes
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): problem is the status bit and how we want more and more to show we are better then the other
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats a really bad thing to do
[13:36] elisabeth3210: capitalism needs selfish, individualistic, greedy people
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and when we think money = status
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hmmmm
[13:37] herman Bergson: As Marcuse said...we desire what we are supposed to desire
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we see the issues of today, rich getting richer, the poor getting poorer
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats at least one of the bits of the story7
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): one piece of the puzzle
[13:38] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano): Not one person or organization today in the West has any sort of vision for the future that anyone would enjoy
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hmmmmm
[13:38] herman Bergson: Well BEjiita...that huge tax reduction Trump has given his people, had only effect on the rich...
[13:38] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano): The field of politics is a wasteland. Nobody is selling ANYTHING.
[13:38] herman Bergson: the ordinary man got nothing out of it
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes so that HE and his fellows can get eve more money in their status piles
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): very very little
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its just for themselves
[13:39] herman Bergson: yes Gemma
[13:39] herman Bergson: a sad thing
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hopefully some people who supported him are beginning to wake up
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm¨
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we saw evidence of some in the past elections
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa indeed, also i saw on FB before how he treats women and esp black one, he is both a sexist and racist
[13:39] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano): Remember though... with capitalism, you can stop buying. With another economic system, you can't.
[13:40] herman Bergson: well 192 - 234 in the ouse if I have the figures right
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:40] herman Bergson: But we LOVE shopping Sousi :-))
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): will lead to any investigations of issues
[13:40] herman Bergson: even in SL :-)))
[13:40] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano): My view is that we need to have MORE capitalism, not less.
[13:41] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano): Smash the monopolies, and you're fine.
[13:41] herman Bergson: I agree if resources are more equally shared, Sousi :-)
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): wel if everything was equal indeed
[13:41] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano): They will be, if competition is reinstated
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): greed is the big problem
[13:42] herman Bergson: A revision of the concept of PRIVATE property would be interesting too
[13:42] elisabeth3210: the problem is that you cannot stop buying, since to perpetuate itself it inoculates a hunger for material things which is never saciated
[13:42] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano): Intellectual property laws out of control, monopolies, barriers of entry, and legal chicanery to destroy competition are the problems
[13:43] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano): Elisabeth, YOU decide what to buy and whether you will submit to that hunger
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the issue i see is when someone makes a product today its not bout delivering a good useful product but just to lure people so they can make money, thats why we see so much useless crap today
[13:43] herman Bergson: Like Google and FAcebook buy any competing company whaereever, indeed
[13:43] CB Axel: Don't forget Amazon. :)
[13:44] herman Bergson: Short term thinking might be the main problem here bejiita
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well thats a big issue indeed
[13:44] herman Bergson: Yes CB...Amazon is also one of the gang :-)
[13:44] elisabeth3210: we cannot, we are being conditioned more than ever
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): also with no respect for the environment
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like when we cut down the jungles and rain forests to make money from palm oil
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and i am I'm Sorry! to say i use amazon more and more
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I sorry..
[13:45] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano): Ford owned 80% of worldwide car markets. Five years later, most of that was gone. Capitalism comes with safeguards and punishments for bad products
[13:45] herman Bergson: Indeed Elisabeth...the way we are bombarded with commercials for instance....unbelievable
[13:45] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano): So why WATCH THEM?
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): give me GOOD stuff for a GOOD price and i will buy it for sure
[13:45] herman Bergson: I dont :-)
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it should be a win win deal
[13:45] herman Bergson: Just notice
[13:46] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano): It is.
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): for everyone
[13:46] herman Bergson: Well..I guess we saved the world another time :-))
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): luckily there is already lot of good stuff, just need to find it
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): one thing I see tho about amazon is it more of a middle man between buyer and sellers
[13:46] elisabeth3210: :)
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes
[13:47] herman Bergson: Time to enjoy our achievement :-)
[13:47] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano): Yay!!!
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): in my cith they builds a huge data center
[13:47] herman Bergson: So...thank you all for your participation again....
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its almost completed
[13:47] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): no class thursday
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ?
[13:47] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano): But Herman... Freud was better than his reputation.
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): thanksgiving
[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: Thank you herman - thank you folks ㋡
[13:47] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano): His followers tho... eugh
[13:47] herman Bergson: Good point Gemma
[13:48] CB Axel: It's up to all of you. I can be here Thursday.
[13:48] herman Bergson: No class on Thanksgiving :-))
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not sure i will be
[13:48] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano): Bye, everyone!
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes its that on thursday
[13:48] herman Bergson: Bye Sousi
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): next tuesday then
[13:48] elisabeth3210: bye folks, thanks for the info :)
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ill make sure to down something tasty then too even i have no turkey
[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: take care everyone
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:48] CB Axel: OK. See you all in a week.
[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: welsterusten beertje ㋡
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok!!
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu next tuesday then
[13:49] herman Bergson: Let's respect some customs
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and dont eat too much turkey
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): welterusten Ciska:)
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i will try but it is hard!!!!
[13:49] herman Bergson: We did it before :-)
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its yummy
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): love stuffing!!!!
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): likes it a lot too
[13:49] bergfrau Apfelbaum: tyy herman and class!
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and gravy
[13:49] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ...:-))
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): bye all
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and turnips
[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): poor turkeys
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Bye Bye!!!
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe well
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu around
