Tuesday, June 8, 2021

931: The Principles Parade....


 [13:08] herman Bergson: Before I begin I want to express a special welcome to my assistant professor AristotleVon Doobie :-)

[13:09] bergfrau Apfelbaum: :-) the first time I was here, Ari was already here

[13:09] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie) nods with thanks

[13:09] bergfrau Apfelbaum: yay

[13:09] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): hello bergfrau

[13:09] herman Bergson: Maybe some of you may know him but he was there at the first lecture in 2007 and his masterpiece was creating a PDF file of all lectures of my first project for all participants

[13:10] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): wow

[13:10] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): 

[13:10] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie) smiles

[13:10] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): YAY! (yay!)

[13:10] herman Bergson: Nice to see you in class today Aristotle :-)

[13:10] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): :)

[13:10] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): good to be here

[13:10] herman Bergson: And keep in mind....a PDF file in 2007 was something! :-)

[13:11] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): 

[13:11] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): a task of love

[13:11] herman Bergson: ok, this being said, let me begin :-)




Those who came after Thales of Miletus (603 BC), remained loyal to the idea of ​​a primordial principle, but then you see what is so typical of Homo Sapiens.

   

Everyone has their own opinion and therefore there was a continuous criticism of earlier primordial principles. For example, Anaximander, 

  

probably an apprentice of Thales, claimed, that the world was not made up of water, but from an infinite, eternal and indefinite matter, "the Apeiron."

     

The earth floated and remained in place through equal distance to other objects in the universe.

     

It remains almost incomprehensible for me, how people in ancient Greece, given their circumstances, could come to such ideas. 

   

He also presented a form of evolution in which the earth was first in liquid condition, then became dryer through the sun, after which fish would have arisen from the water from which all other animals and people would have emerged. 

  

The most remarkable of this last idea is that evolution indeed followed that route. All life has emerged from water (Thales), from the sea indeed.

   

Anaximander's student Anaximenes (585 - 526 BC), on the other hand, stated that the basic matter was air. 

  

He believed that the earth didn't float, but rested on air. The idea that the world is not composed of one but from multiple elements, was also an option in those days. 

  

Empedocles (494 - ... Bc.) stated that the entire cosmos was made up of water, fire, earth and air. This idea has continued to exist as a theory of elements, as used by alchemists in the Middle Ages. 


The most radical vision, however, came from Democritus (ca. 460 - 370 BC.), which he formulated in the fifth century BC that all matter is made up of small, indivisible particles that are moving in a vacuum: atoms. 

  

Later Atomists such as Epicurus (342-270 BC) and Roman Lucretius (approx. 99-55 BC) vigorously tried to prove the atomistic theory. 

   

Lucretius in his poem "De Rerum Natura" (About The Things Of Nature) showed that the universe could be explained entirely by atomism. 

   

All objects and phenomena consist of nothing but compositions of atoms that can produce new objects through their constant and eternal movement. 

  

Even human free will could be explained because some atoms do not move in determined ways but randomly. 

   

It remains fascinating to imagine how those people could come up with such a representation of reality, which is now commonplace. 

  

Antique atomism remained extremely speculative and predicting concrete new phenomena, a basic current feature of the combination of principles and patterns, was beyond their scope in those days. 

   

How else would it have been if they had had their own particle accelerator and nuclear power plants?

  

Thank you for your attention....


The discussion


[13:18] herman Bergson: By the way...take Empedocles and Democritus and you see the conflict of a principle that works and one that didn't work. We'll get to that later

[13:19] herman Bergson: Feel free if you have any remarks or questions.....:-)

[13:20] herman Bergson: Well....an easy class today :-)

[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but still good

[13:20] CB Axel: I can see how they would have come up with air, fire, water, and earth, but how did Democritus ever imagine atoms?

[13:20] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): it is interesting how the chain of technological discovery present many theories before their time

[13:21] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): only thing is..I don't know waht to ask now:)

[13:21] herman Bergson: I agree Beerttje...

[13:21] herman Bergson: there is just a lot to wonder about like CB says...

[13:21] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes

[13:22] herman Bergson: For instance that the greeks already envisioned an earth in space....

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed the atom was a very early idea long before electron microscopes and particle accelerators

[13:22] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): but as I said last lecture..why took it so long that people worked with those thoughts

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): how did they get the idea

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i have read it but don't remember

[13:22] herman Bergson: The big question is....why did the human brain was inclined to reduce things....

[13:23] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): yes, and the earth is made from those same things in space

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): however atom means unsplitable / undividable but nuclear fission and particle colliders proved otherwise

[13:23] herman Bergson: They reduced the multitude of reality to single formless particles...

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): however one atom is the smallest possible amount of an element

[13:24] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): the attempt to make complex things simple maybe

[13:24] herman Bergson: Yes Aristotle.....

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so in that sense its undividable because beyond that its no longer the same element

[13:24] herman Bergson: seems to be a tendency in the mind...

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes break things down

[13:24] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): and there was no Carl Sagan then :)

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): to grasp them better

[13:25] herman Bergson: Like Descartes suggested how to solve a problem....split it up in its composing little problems first

[13:25] herman Bergson: it is a kind of universal methodology, it seems

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aah

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well its how i attack complex stuff too say in my game engines and similar complex challenges i do

[13:26] herman Bergson: The analyzingthe complex into its composing parts

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): to learn them i take small steps for each single part and learn that before i try do more complex stuff

[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): the easiest way to solve a problem

[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): very handy

[13:26] herman Bergson: it's the basis of procedural programming

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): exactly

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and also how i organize my code with clear functions and divisions to ease both coding and later debugging

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cause in game engines u REALLY can make a mess if not careful

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its HUUUGE systems

[13:27] herman Bergson: Maybe the wiring of the brain is structured in this way

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): break it down, take small steps, don't swallow it at all in one bite

[13:28] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): we all seem to have our strong suit, to communicate what is clear to us can overwhelm some

[13:29] herman Bergson: The whole quintessence of the current project is focused on this observation.....the method of reducing patterns to principles

[13:30] herman Bergson: And as you see....mankind started early with this approach of reality

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:31] herman Bergson: Maybe the mind discovered that this methodology is THE best way to survive in a multitude of experiences

[13:31] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): if our brains could only rewire themselves as fast as rate of innovation

[13:31] herman Bergson: So  this was a step in evolution

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sounds logical

[13:32] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): back then they had longer periods of adjustment to new truths

[13:32] herman Bergson: From the Greek till today we kept believing in the idea of small particles as the composing part of matter

[13:32] herman Bergson: Indeed they had, Aristotle

[13:33] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): without microscopes, that is quite a assumption

[13:33] herman Bergson: In previous lectures I described the timeline......some changed emerged after thousands of years...

[13:33] herman Bergson: Since the greek it became hundreds of years

[13:33] herman Bergson: today,,,,it is decades or les

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): facsinating

[13:34] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): indeed

[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): has our brain developed faster?

[13:34] herman Bergson: I think it is still the same

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): technology helps us advance

[13:34] CB Axel: I don't think mine has, Beertje. :)

[13:34] herman Bergson: since 300 BC

[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): smiles at CB:)

[13:35] herman Bergson: The means to aquire knowledge have increased faster and faster

[13:35] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): with the advent of digital distractions, I think it may have regressed

[13:35] herman Bergson: since 3000 BC I meant

[13:35] CB Axel: :)

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): organizations like CERN have since usung their machines rapidly discovered more and more of the secret of matter

[13:35] herman Bergson: In what way Aristotle?

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): however building these machines and know how to run then takes reeal skill and developmenmt

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): u just don't build one and smash on

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and say HEY THERS THE HISSSS BOSON

[13:36] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): critical thinking has been replace by rote

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): too until today before we managed doing that but the ideas themselves are way older

[13:37] CB Axel: I think more people used to be able to do more maths  in their heads than now. Calculators have made that unnecessary.

[13:37] herman Bergson: Well...that's  thing indeed :-)

[13:37] CB Axel: So it's a skill we have lost.

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and today we google everything

[13:37] CB Axel nods

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): instead of learning ourselves, and babies first word today is IPHOOOONE!

[13:37] herman Bergson: .

[13:37] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): yes, google for temporary information

[13:38] CB Axel: As a child I remember refusing to memorize things I could easily look up. :)

[13:38] CB Axel: I hated rote learning.

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): are these devices dumbing us down again

[13:38] herman Bergson: Smart child :-)

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:38] herman Bergson: I still only remember where to find the details

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (thinks about people looking at iphone and stumbling in fountains)

[13:38] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): it takes energy to think critically

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yep

[13:39] CB Axel: I don't think they're dumbing us down. I think they're freeing our brains for more thinking.

[13:39] herman Bergson: Whey should I memorize all birth years of philosophers?

[13:39] herman Bergson: A general idea of the period the lived in is enough

[13:40] CB Axel: The only thing that's good for, Herman, is being able to keep track of what ideas came first.

[13:40] herman Bergson: But learning to think critical , is an issue

[13:40] herman Bergson: to learn logic too

[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): not everyone is allowed to think critical

[13:40] herman Bergson: Indeed CB

[[13:41] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): but to not use something is for it to atrophy

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and to CHECK FACT! not just blindly believing rumours and then proceed spreading them all over the internet because SOMEONE said so on FB

[13:41] herman Bergson: At least you should know that Plato wasn't a member of the Wiener Kreis :-)

[13:41] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): yes, bejiita

[13:41] CB Axel: LOL, Herman.

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hahaha

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ill note that!

[13:42] herman Bergson: Regarding to that, Bejiita, we are in serious trouble

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm indeed, worst thing is when things like these lead to hatestorms and violence

[13:42] herman Bergson: A whole country is in the grip of a big lie today......amazing...

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): based on untrue information

[13:42] herman Bergson: and terrifying too

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): MrT was expert spreading these but many others are great at it too and it has to stop

[13:43] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): I think humans are the only animals who act irrationally

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): esp now staring into computer screens believing EVERYTHING they say

[13:44] herman Bergson: Other animals aren't rational at all....they just are with their instincts

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): is on internet = true syndrome

[13:44] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie) laughs, sheep to slauglter

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:44] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): yes, instinctual reactions

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well

[13:45] herman Bergson: They already believe it when they have seen it on TV Bejiita....

[13:45] herman Bergson: There are complete TV stations corrupting the minds of people

[13:45] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): or the government says it is so

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Videodrome

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or something similar

[13:46] CB Axel: Maybe today Descarte would have said, "I Google, therefore I am."

[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): in those early days some clever man thought about atoms...but...did everybody believe those ideas?

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm indeed thats a classic

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): brainwash people through the TV

[13:46] Ciska Riverstone is online.

[13:46] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): of course, it is extremely prudent to vet everything we see or hear

[13:46] herman Bergson: Good question, Beertje

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): most probably thought he was nuts

[13:46] CB Axel: Someone believed it enough to remember it.

[13:47] CB Axel: Or to write it down

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Some took the ideas to them thats for sure

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): otherwise we would not had proceeded

[13:47] herman Bergson: I think ideas of people like Anaximander or Democritus were only discussed in the small circle of well to do Greeks

[13:47] herman Bergson: Those who could afford education

[13:47] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): I doubt that all believed any new theory, and some strongly condemn things taht are not favorabe to them

[13:47] herman Bergson: so...the top 1%

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:48] CB Axel: Those who could afford to sit around all day thinking

[13:48] herman Bergson: I agree Aristotle....I guess it wasn't much different from what we see now.....maybe only in scale

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and then we had the church opposing all forms of science cause it threatened its power

[13:48] CB Axel: If you have slaves doing all your mundane chores you have time to sit and think.

[13:48] herman Bergson: Yes, really, CB..that is how it was

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that Galileo got to feel full on

[13:49] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): human nature has not evolved that much I think, only our ability to suppress it

[13:49] herman Bergson: Indeed Aristotle...

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so now we just all have to turn into vulcans

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:50] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): LOL, yes

[13:50] herman Bergson: Live long and prosper, Bejiita ^_^

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): EXACTLY

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): just like Tuvok

[13:50] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): the sex every 7 years may be a problem

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well true

[13:50] herman Bergson: Typical human response Aristotle.....

[13:50] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): lol

[13:51] herman Bergson: You still have a lot to learn :-)))

[13:51] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): sacrifice

[13:51] CB Axel: The urge to have sex only every 7 years would free our minds up even more than have calculators. :)

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:51] herman Bergson: /

[13:51] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): I agree, but it is like junk food, is life better not eating it?

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): if we don't go crazy from it

[13:51] Ladyy Haven (ladyy.haven) is online.

[13:52] herman Bergson: Difficult question Aristotle.....I am inclined to anser: NO

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and sex involves closeness that we also need a lot (esp after this corona shit is over)

[13:53] herman Bergson: Well then it is time to end our discussion of today and start working on it :-)

[13:53] herman Bergson: So...thank you all again for your participation....

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:53] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....

[13:53] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): thanks, Herman!

[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nice as usual

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:54] bergfrau Apfelbaum: interesting again! thank you Herman and class

[13:54] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): very stimulating as always

[13:54] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman and class. :)