Saturday, June 18, 2022

1009: Socialism vs. Liberalism...

 The year is 1900 -1914. We have arrived at a complex moment in time. We have two concepts, that started closely related but grew apart through time: freedom and democracy.


The first thing we have to understand is, that these concepts do not refer to a property of something like green refers to the property of an apple. 


These concepts refer to the relations between humans. Freedom and democracy were closely linked together in Ancient Greece because the Greeks saw democracy as THE weapon against slavery.


However, historically, the overall relationship between humans became one of a ruler, tyrant, king, or emperor at the top, then a layer of elites that controlled everything, and then the masses.


It took Europe almost 2000 years to get rid of this hierarchical structure of society and undo all forms of absolutism. 


It is 1776 and humans begin to claim that the government has to be based on the will of the people so that the people no longer is a slave of a ruling class.


The floodgates of the revolution were opened and the claim to honor the will of the people and its freedom became the central theme.


At this point, freedom and democracy became two separate themes. Freedom became the idea that every individual should have the right to live his own life enjoying his own private property.


Democracy became the big question of how and to what extent to give the masses, the people access to governing. The world was no longer the size of a city-state.


The population of Europe had doubled in a century from 240 to 490 million people. If democracy is the relationship between humans, how do you organize these relations in large populations?


We already have seen all kinds of voting rights, which had to end up in a claim for universal suffrage. But as I said before, the gentry of the 20th century wasn't the ancient nobility.


It had become the rich and owners of the factories, which exploited the workers. The result was a new look at democracy.


To protect your freedom to live your life and enjoy your private property, democracy as political influence no longer was adequate. Democracy had to be extended from the political to the economical domain.


Socialism that started to play an important role around 1910 can be characterized as follows: if people wanted to become truly autonomous, truly free, they had to have the means to act, to be free. 


This meant that they should all be given an equal share of political power so that no one had to stand in the shadow of another. 


But this also meant that everyone should have an equal share in the management of the means of production, 


so that no one has to depend on another for his livelihood so that no one is obliged to surrender even part of his labor or his freedom to people, which control the productive forces. 


In short, the motto of socialism was "ni roi, ni capitalism" (neither king nor capitalism), a motto of the French socialists at the time.


This meant considerable control over the economical processes in a country by the government.


This was problematic for the laissez-faire liberals, who promoted the idea of a small government, but the more people got voting rights, the more political power moved to the lower social classes.


As  a consequence, the European liberals in France, Germany and England, among others had to review their ideology. Some care from the government for the working classes had to be accepted.


And here we see the start of the still-raging battle between liberalism and socialism, or actually about the question regarding the relations between people in this world,


the universal question: How willing are you to show solidarity with your fellow man and how much are you willing to share.


Thank you for your attention....


Main Sources:

MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995
Annelien de Dijn: "Freedom. An unruly history".  2020

TABLE OF CONTENT -----------------------------------------------------------------  

  1 - 100 Philosophers                         9 May 2009  Start of

  2 - 25+ Women Philosophers                       10 May 2009  this blog

  3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking                       10 May 2009

  4 - Modern Theories of Ethics                       29 Oct  2009

  5 - The Ideal State                                               24 Febr 2010   /   234

  6 - The Mystery of the Brain                                  3 Sept 2010   /   266

  7 - The Utopia of the Free Market                       16 Febr 2012    /   383

  8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism                      5 Sept 2012   /   413

  9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist                             6 Nov  2012   /   426                        

10  - Non-Western Philosophy                               29 May 2013    /   477

11  -  Why Science is Right                                      2 Sept 2014   /   534      

12  - A Philosopher looks at Atheism                        1 Jan  2015   /   557

13  - EVIL, a philosophical investigation                 17 Apr  2015   /   580                

14  - Existentialism and Free Will                             2 Sept 2015   /   586         

15 - Spinoza                                                             2 Sept 2016   /   615

16 - The Meaning of Life                                        13 Febr 2017   /   637

17 - In Search of  my Self                                        6 Sept 2017   /   670

18 - The 20th Century Revisited                              3 Apr  2018    /   706

19 - The Pessimist                                                  11 Jan 2020    /   819

20 - The Optimist                                                     9 Febr 2020   /   824

21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream                8 Oct  2020   /   872

22 - A World Full of Patterns                                    1 Apr 2021    /   912

23 - The Concept of Freedom                                  8 Jan 2022    /   965

The Discussion


[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): interesting

[13:23] herman Bergson: The picture is clear.....

[13:24] herman Bergson: When you want to share you need a government to help  to give to everyone what one needs

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): if it is so clear why cannot it be settled

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): a long debate

[13:24] herman Bergson: If you are pleading for a small government believing that everyone primarily can help himself then you see the difference of opinion emerge

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i see that

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we see it every day in usa

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the issue is there is always some power/money  hungry dude that has to destroy it all

[13:25] herman Bergson: But we are walking on three legs already in this matter....

[13:26] herman Bergson: it is no longer a question whether a governmet should help the individual citizen by redistributing wealth....

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and the number of people which is smaller than the those who want a large government to handle fairness to all is so much stronger

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sigh

[13:26] herman Bergson: We already do that ...for instance pensions

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): nto here

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): pensions are on teh decline

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): 401K is the private answer to that

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ha

[13:27] herman Bergson: In the Netherlands every citizen gets a pension from the state when he is 67 or older

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): nice

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): many have pensions here

[13:27] herman Bergson: it is not higher than the minimum wage

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): from their employers

[13:28] herman Bergson: But there is more.....

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): on the decline

[13:28] oola Neruda whispers: I've been attending lectures on Russian History..... and they just it made everyone "equal

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): swell

[13:28] oola Neruda: by taking away their hopes for a better life...

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): what is equal yes

[13:28] oola Neruda: everyone is THE SAME

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): too much teh same

[13:28] herman Bergson: I was a teacher for 30 years and I paid a premium to a special fund....

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): IRA here is a way of waving

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we did here too Herman

[13:29] herman Bergson: so I get the state pension plus a pension from the fund

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so get a pension from our state not national

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): IRA is private savings

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): which we will get when retired

[13:30] herman Bergson: Healthcare is the same issue...we are already socialists there....

[13:30] oola Neruda: took their land, their jobs.... etc... made them share TINY spaces as home and the children were taught the "proper" Russian things to do and say

[13:30] herman Bergson: with the police too, fire department, army....all socialist institutions ^_^

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): here also they will get pensions from their state

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not national

[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): can you live from a pension Gemma?

[13:31] herman Bergson: around 1910 workers were treated like cattle and the started to oppose that exploitation

[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): is it enough?

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): could i think but will not be sufficient for more than basic

[13:32] herman Bergson: In the US it may differ per state I guess

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): to travel, do extra stuff

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): need more

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is why I have an IRA

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): individual retirement

[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ok

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): saving with tax deduction now but will pay taxes when using

[13:33] herman Bergson: Like is quite common in the Netherlands for certain groups of workers

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): several types of savings

[13:34] herman Bergson: when you are a small business and have to take a private IRA with an insurance is super expensive

[13:35] herman Bergson: But the socialism - liberalism has in fact become a debate about marfins, I'd say

[13:35] herman Bergson: Except in the US :-)

[13:36] herman Bergson: It looks like any suggestion to share something is trashed as socialist or communist

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): especially health care here

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:36] herman Bergson: yes...a beautiful example....

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ridiculous

[13:37] herman Bergson: as if getting ill is a liberal and free choice and your own fault or responsability

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): private insurance companies control it all

[13:37] herman Bergson: to  quote oola here: Follow the money :-)

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah yea

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): always

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): in US its all for their own

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): in everything

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yep

[13:38] herman Bergson: Looks like it indeed

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): no solidarity or care for others, just ME ME ME!

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): where unions are strong it is working

[13:38] herman Bergson: Also with everyone his own gun

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the need for more unions is vital

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): add to that too! GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Biden knows that

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and supports the idea of more unions

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and Trump says the solution is MORE GUNS. give teachers guns and so and so

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): groan!

[13:39] Nicholas Derwent (nicholasderwent) is online.

[13:39] herman Bergson: No Bejiita...DOORS....Bulletproof glass :-))

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sssssss

[13:40] herman Bergson: Armed guards at the door

[13:40] herman Bergson: THAT solves the problem

[13:40] oola Neruda: no recess in the school yard..... cameras at every door....

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i see a very sad image being painted

[13:40] herman Bergson: But I have a question.....

[13:40] oola Neruda: we already have the cameras in the last school i was in

[13:40] herman Bergson: If that should be the solution for schools....

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): some places actually do use those methods with success

[13:41] herman Bergson: what about  restaurants stadiums, shops, churches parking lots Walmart...:-)

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): crazy

[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): or just every street?

[13:42] Nicholas Derwent (nicholasderwent) is offline.

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): stadiums actually have people who check entry

[13:42] herman Bergson: Everywhere in the US steel doors, bulletproof glass armed guards and so on?

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the cameras i can agree on. Here In Sweden its the other way around though as the organistion "Datainspektionen" refuses to give permissions to cameras even outside stores referring to personal integrity

[13:42] herman Bergson: yes we have too Gemma

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): rules about what to carry in

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): etc

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and thus crimes continue outside the stores

[13:42] herman Bergson: yes

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): body pat downs i dont like

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): some have a laser type check

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its a double edged sword that needs to be used right but used right it can stop crimes and destruction

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is ok with me

[13:43] herman Bergson: But it brings us back to the question.....democracy and is about relations between people...

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): true

[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): teach toddlers in kindergarten to use a gun

[13:43] oola Neruda: I've visited nursing homes with signs on the doors.... in open carry states.... no guns allowed inside...

[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): maybe they need it

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): unions!!!!!

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ssss

[13:43] oola Neruda: do you think they just put the gun back in the car???

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa

[13:43] oola Neruda: hmmm

[13:43] herman Bergson: How will we shape these relations....politics is the debate about that question

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well shaping is needed for sure

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it is

[13:44] herman Bergson: We are actually already debating the present situation....

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and it takes more then me with a lathe, 3D printer and angle grinder to shape that

[13:44] herman Bergson: Like you say 'unions' Gemma.....

[13:44] oola Neruda: rural arias... pickup trucks with a gun in a gun rack in their back window

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ssss

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): those are a relationship of peo[le who are for the same things

[13:45] herman Bergson: in the early years of the 20th century socialism brought this into the debate...

[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): is it strange that I never have seen a gun in my life?

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh i have

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): in my face!!!!!!

[13:45] herman Bergson: holy cow

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:46] herman Bergson: you were robbed Gemma?

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): no

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i was teaching

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and took my 6th grade outside at dismissal

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): was talking to a parent

[13:46] herman Bergson: an angry parent?

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): when a fight started behind me

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i turned and there were older guys hitting two students with sticke

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): wow

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i started toward them adn saw one kid holding a gun at me

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so stopped

[13:47] herman Bergson: my goodness

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): they stopped at that point and took off

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): omg

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): was an experience

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (shudder)

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): kids covered with blood

[13:47] herman Bergson: I can imagine...

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): got them in

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): police came

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oow

[13:48] oola Neruda: children in chicago sleep in the bathtub so that stray bullets don't kill them in their sleep

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): they got some of them

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the next week i saw that kid who was holding the gun walking down the street

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): free

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): SSSSSSS

[13:49] oola Neruda: yup

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well this is the reality indeed

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): older guys get the younger kids to hold the guns because they do not get the rough treatment of the older ones

[13:49] herman Bergson: well...always something new....

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sssss

[13:49] herman Bergson: ok...

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that was a few years ago and i survived

[13:49] oola Neruda: my experience is Chicago... which city were you

[13:50] herman Bergson: Let's prepare for the next lecture....

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): in CT

[13:50] oola Neruda: ahhhh

[13:50] oola Neruda: yes

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah next lecture

[13:50] herman Bergson: Might be the last one of this project....

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well thats what Chicago is known for indeed, would not fee safe there

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oki

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Thursday?

[13:50] herman Bergson: Thursday it is...:-)

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): feel

[13:51] herman Bergson: So, thank you all again....

[13:51] herman Bergson: Class dismissed :-)

[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least another good class

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): is only certain areas of Chicago bej

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): NOT the whole city

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): with some more interesting conclusions

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but you can go to a small town in Texas as you saw

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and....

[13:51] herman Bergson: Even the dog wags its tail :-))

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hm

[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or a small town in Connecticut

[13:52] Alejandra Loza 24c (kotori24c) is online.

[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): like Sandy Hook

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (hugs the dog)

[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): therapy dog

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa

[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): herman

[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥