Matter is no problem for materialist philosophy. We now know so much about matter, that we can explain a lot ontologically with the help of the laws of nature. We know it is not just about little particles, but that is ok.
The problems begin when we hear people talk about things that do not relate to the laws of nature or the material way, that is by our senses, we gather information about the world around us.
The big question is of course: do there exist immaterial entities? The first candidates for that quality are of course gods. We already discussed the fact that homo sapiens had imagined the existence of more than 3000, whose names you can see here posted on the ceiling.
When we stay close to earth the next candidates are thoughts, or more generally speaking mental states. No law of physics applies to thought. To make it even more confusing: the laws of physics are thoughts, which came up in the minds of brilliant scientists.
There is a serious temptation to think that the mind which is capable of so many exceptional things, that is, thoughts, fantasies, imagination, recollections, transcends the material world.
Our philosophical position is simple: that is NOT the case. At least that much is generally accepted these days, is, that there is a strong relation between the physical brain and the mind: no brain, no mind.
The main challenge for a materialist ontology is therefore the answer to the question: what is the relation between the brain and the mind?
One answer we already discussed is, that this brain-mind issue is related to the language we use. We have a language of physics and we have a language of psychology about the mental.
Words have a meaning and a reference and the Identity Theory assumes that physical terms, that is neurobiological terms, refer to the same physical states as mental terms do.
But you can take it a step further: you can say that all this talk about mental states, like desires and beliefs, has no reference at all. Here we enter the realm of eliminativism, that is the elimination of the mental.
The idea that we think that we meaningful can talk about things regarding ourselves, while we actually are talking about something non-existent, is not new in philosophy.
Just think of Descartes, who postulated the existence of the Ego. By denying that there is an ego or persisting subject of experience, Hume (1739) was arguably an eliminativist about the self and refuted Descartes.
Or think about the debate about free will. If matter is completely determined by the laws of nature and everything is a matter of causality, in what sense can the choices we make in life be based on free will instead of on cause and effect?
Next lecture we'll see how this eliminativism works. Are we better of when we eliminate mental state language and talk about what it is really about: brain states?
Thank you for your attention again....
Main Sources:
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
TABLE OF CONTENT -----------------------------------------------------------------
1 - 100 Philosophers 9 May 2009 Start of
2 - 25+ Women Philosophers 10 May 2009 this blog
3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking 10 May 2009
4 - Modern Theories of Ethics 29 Oct 2009
5 - The Ideal State 24 Febr 2010 / 234
6 - The Mystery of the Brain 3 Sept 2010 / 266
7 - The Utopia of the Free Market 16 Febr 2012 / 383
8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism 5 Sept 2012 / 413
9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist 6 Nov 2012 / 426
10 - Non-Western Philosophy 29 May 2013 / 477
11 - Why Science is Right 2 Sept 2014 / 534
12 - A Philosopher looks at Atheism 1 Jan 2015 / 557
13 - EVIL, a philosophical investigation 17 Apr 2015 / 580
14 - Existentialism and Free Will 2 Sept 2015 / 586
15 - Spinoza 2 Sept 2016 / 615
16 - The Meaning of Life 13 Febr 2017 / 637
17 - In Search of my Self 6 Sept 2017 / 670
18 - The 20th Century Revisited 3 Apr 2018 / 706
19 - The Pessimist 11 Jan 2020 / 819
20 - The Optimist 9 Febr 2020 / 824
21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream 8 Oct 2020 / 872
22 - A World Full of Patterns 1 Apr 2021 / 912
23 - The Concept of Freedom 8 Jan 2022 / 965
24 - Materialism 7 Sept 2022 / 1011
[13:13] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman
[13:13] herman Bergson: So, we no longer say "I love you" but "I am full of oxytocine about you" :-)))
[13:13] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:13] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:13] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol
[13:13] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): haha
[13:13] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well
[13:14] bergfrau Apfelbaum: grins
[13:14] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): you'll get blue eyes when you say that
[13:14] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ha
[13:14] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:15] herman Bergson: The talk about mental states like emotions, feelings, thoughts, fears and so on.....next lecture I'll talk about it.
[13:15] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok
[13:15] herman Bergson: One explanation of that language is, that it is in fact a historical cultural thing...
[13:15] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): are we still using materialism? or physicalism
[13:16] herman Bergson: For me the terms are interchangeable....
[13:16] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok
[13:16] herman Bergson: but ok preferably physicalism to stay in tune with the current philosophical tradition
[13:17] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): there is so much more talk of neurobiology lately
[13:17] Dien (djdien.bailey) is offline.
[13:17] herman Bergson: But just imagine....the language about the mental is a language about nothing that really exists....can that be...?
[13:17] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): in the news
[13:17] herman Bergson: Yes.....
[13:17] herman Bergson: When I wondered about that question I said: YES
[13:18] herman Bergson: all fairy tales are talking about nothing real
[13:18] herman Bergson: dwarfs, trolls, fairies, witches....
[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:18] herman Bergson: Or take all HArry Potter novels
[13:18] oola Neruda: symbols
[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cool creatures for gamedev though
[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol
[13:18] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): love them all
[13:19] herman Bergson: Symbols...??? I wonder
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes
[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): maybe oola yes
[13:19] herman Bergson: I have read them all and seen all Potter movies too :-))
[13:19] oola Neruda: if nothing else, language consists of symbols
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well I'm happy if i can create magic effects in unreal Engine 5
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): does not have to be real to be cool
[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bejita is out of the tunnel and now stuck in games
[13:20] oola Neruda: if i say cat..... i am referring to (symbol) a real object
[13:20] herman Bergson: I dare to disagree with you oola, depending on the definition of the term symbol
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but sure it WOULD be cool if it was real but also magic ids defined as breaking laws of physics = impossible
[13:20] oola Neruda: yes... that definition is necessary...
[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well cinderella could be a symbol of all those girls who suffer under slavery
[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or trafficking
[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): nowadays
[13:20] oola Neruda: but symbols come in all kinds of shapes and sizes...
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:21] oola Neruda: and sounds
[13:21] herman Bergson: A symbol is a figurative metaphor
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): metaphors yes
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I see
[13:21] herman Bergson: words are just words that mean things....so cat is a word that refers to an animal
[13:22] herman Bergson: While the black cant can be a symbol of misfortune :-)
[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): their are way too many words on the ceiling but they represent one thing really
[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): if it were real
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes, thats a misfortune symbol, a classic one
[13:23] herman Bergson: But I just learned that this is onle the case when you see the cat walk from left to right
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm ok
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that one was new
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): to me too
[13:23] herman Bergson: for me too, Bejiita ^_^
[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ha never knew that
[13:24] oola Neruda: there are all kinds of symbols... that is... meanings that we associate with various objects, actions, concepts.... etc
[13:24] oola Neruda: it is an association... with something
[13:24] oola Neruda: even actions can be symbols
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the walking under ladder symbol is easier to grasp, it could fall over or there could be a painter standing on it and dropping a bucket of paint over you
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:24] herman Bergson: yes Bejiita
[13:24] oola Neruda: a kiss is a symbol
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): love symbol
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true
[13:25] oola Neruda: but there are many interpretations that can come with it
[13:25] herman Bergson: Let's interpret it like that indeed Bejiita :-))
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:25] ℒαđуу нαʋєŋ (ladyy.haven) is online.
[13:25] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ♥
[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): a kiss is a print that emphatically asks for a reprint
[13:26] oola Neruda: language is basically symbol
[13:26] herman Bergson: But we are looking here at the phenomenon that you can have a language, a set of words, that refer to nothing in reality
[13:26] herman Bergson: And yet we understand this language
[13:26] herman Bergson: due to our imagination, I guess
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sometimes
[13:26] oola Neruda: feed the cat
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true
[13:27] oola Neruda: feed is a symbol that is understood
[13:27] oola Neruda: cat is also
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and also we seem to have a built in functionality to learn a langiage however it only works during childhood, after this its much more difficult to learn another one
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): very hard
[13:28] herman Bergson: This elininativism is a modern and current philosophy....so it needs somem more study
[13:28] oola Neruda: depends, Particle
[13:28] herman Bergson: Some would say...any religious talk would fit the description
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): for ex if i would try learn Spanish or Italian now and even fluid Japanese, i know a few Japanese terns and words but cant speak it natively, well also i got most of it from anime so
[13:29] oola Neruda: as an artist.... color and shape can be symbolic
[13:29] oola Neruda: you have reactions to them
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:30] oola Neruda: and if it is colored.... that compounds the meaning
[13:30] oola Neruda: scale... also
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): very involved
[13:30] oola Neruda: scale
[13:30] Catharel Alwin (catharel) is online.
[13:31] herman Bergson: Yes oola, but the reference of the word RED is just a light wave length....what you call symbolic is the connotations we have added to the word RED
[13:31] oola Neruda: EXACTLY
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah and and also these symbos are universal, we all see them more or less the same way unlike the language we speak
[13:31] oola Neruda: YES...EXACTLY
[13:31] herman Bergson: Red can be symbolic for DANGER, ANFGER
[[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes, like how all traffic lights in entire world is red for stop and green for go
[13:32] oola Neruda: I once had a chat with a blind man.... about what is the word red...what dos it a man
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): means same everywhere
[13:32] oola Neruda: he could only tell me it was a fire engine
[13:32] oola Neruda: period.... nothing more
[[13:32] herman Bergson: But when I talk about mental states, the question is...do they exists beyond material , physical staes
[13:32] herman Bergson: states
[13:32] oola Neruda: but red does not MEAN fire engine
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): some fire engines are yellow i think
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): here they are red
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:33] oola Neruda: i think you are missing the link that he makes to it
[13:33] oola Neruda: red... fire engine
[13:34] oola Neruda: totally blind
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well if u never have seen the color red u have no idea what color even is in general
[13:34] oola Neruda: exactly
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): if never have seen colors or anything else
[13:34] herman Bergson: Soemoen may have told him when he asked,,,,what do I hear?
[13:34] herman Bergson: Someone
[13:34] herman Bergson: and the answer was the red fire engine is passing by
[13:34] oola Neruda: but you do not hear red... you hear sound
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aa the sirens
[13:35] oola Neruda: maybe you had to be with the man who swears he knows exactly what red is
[13:35] herman Bergson: A blind man only hears the sirene...the horn...what do you call it?
[13:35] oola Neruda: exaclty
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): siren
[13:35] herman Bergson: thnx Gemma :-)
[13:35] oola Neruda: there is no visual equivelant for him
[13:36] herman Bergson: no
[13:36] oola Neruda: if you have a cat...
[13:36] oola Neruda: and can see...
[13:36] oola Neruda: then feed the cat has meaning
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:36] herman Bergson: ANyway....I guess you get the feeling that the mental and the physical and their relation has a lot to do with language, meaning and reference
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): some blind who now can see thru new technological goggles actually had the thought of what they believed red is
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and understand it
[13:37] herman Bergson: interesting
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:37] herman Bergson: You mean they had an idea of colors, Gemma?
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): amazing stuff
[13:37] oola Neruda: I would find it very interesting to test that...
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): from listening to people who tried to explain it
[13:38] oola Neruda: i worked summers at a camp for blind children
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[13:38] oola Neruda: and durning the xchool year... one on one with a blind child whose eyes were removed at birth
[13:39] oola Neruda: the words mean something to them when it becomes visceral
[13:39] oola Neruda: the soft fur..... the cold drink...etc
[13:40] herman Bergson: Well, maybe a good moment to get ready for the next lecture :-)
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:40] herman Bergson: Thank you all again :-)
[13:40] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you Herman and class!!
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): see you soon
[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[13:40] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....
[[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
