A generally preferred identity-theory by the majority of physicalists is to understand a person using mental terms as speaking of experiences that human beings have but not of mental entities that human beings experience.
There are not such things as pains, that you experience, but there is the experience of being in pain, which is a physical process. You could analyze some mental terms in terms of dispositions to behave in certain ways
and others can be understood as referring to experiences that are really physical processes. This would be a fine position in the mind-body issue for the physicalist. There is assumed some kind of identity of the mental and the physical.
But here we go. Throw some raw terms and concepts at a philosopher pack and the fighting begins: Identity of the mental and the physical? What do you mean by "identity"? In what way are they identical?
Take the statement "3 + 3 = 6" or "All bachelors are unmarried". Six is necessarily identical with 3 +3 based on the meaning of the terms. It is by definition that all circles are round.
But when you say "This table is made of oak". Ok, that specific table is identical with the oak wood it is made of, but when I refer to a table, it is not necessarily an object made of oak. So, this identity is contingent, not necessary.
In the same way you can't deduce from the meaning of the mental terms the meaning of the physical terms. Like you have to investigate the table, you have to check the body to find the physical process that occurs when someone says he is in pain.
This leads to another questionable issue: if you , in fact, discover physical processes that occur at the same time that someone says "I am in pain", wouldn't it be more appropriate to talk about a correlation here instead of an identity between two events?
How strong is the identity claim? To begin with, it can not be a necessary identity but neither can it be a strict identity. The classic example in philosophy for strict identity is the statement "The Morning Star is the Evening Star", as the descriptive terms both to the planet Venus.
Does this strict identity also apply to the statement that this table is identical with the cluster of atoms that comprise the table? The table is still but the cluster is in constant motion.
You could claim that anything short of strict identity would be merely a correlation of two things. So, what identity should mean if we talk about the identity of the mental and the physical, is quite a problem.
Just ask yourself the question: what is being said to be identical to what? At least it is generally accepted that there are identities between experiences and brain processes.
So much may be true. If you go to the doctor with a specific pain in a specific body part he might give you some specific medication, that heals you. Your experience of this specific pain is identified with a specific bodily malfunction in this case.
What I wanted to show you today is, that is is easily said that the mental and physical are identical from a physicalist perspective, but that it still is a big issue to figure out what "Identity" should mean here.
Thank you for your attention again....
Main Sources:
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
TABLE OF CONTENT -----------------------------------------------------------------
1 - 100 Philosophers 9 May 2009 Start of
2 - 25+ Women Philosophers 10 May 2009 this blog
3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking 10 May 2009
4 - Modern Theories of Ethics 29 Oct 2009
5 - The Ideal State 24 Febr 2010 / 234
6 - The Mystery of the Brain 3 Sept 2010 / 266
7 - The Utopia of the Free Market 16 Febr 2012 / 383
8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism 5 Sept 2012 / 413
9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist 6 Nov 2012 / 426
10 - Non-Western Philosophy 29 May 2013 / 477
11 - Why Science is Right 2 Sept 2014 / 534
12 - A Philosopher looks at Atheism 1 Jan 2015 / 557
13 - EVIL, a philosophical investigation 17 Apr 2015 / 580
14 - Existentialism and Free Will 2 Sept 2015 / 586
15 - Spinoza 2 Sept 2016 / 615
16 - The Meaning of Life 13 Febr 2017 / 637
17 - In Search of my Self 6 Sept 2017 / 670
18 - The 20th Century Revisited 3 Apr 2018 / 706
19 - The Pessimist 11 Jan 2020 / 819
20 - The Optimist 9 Febr 2020 / 824
21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream 8 Oct 2020 / 872
22 - A World Full of Patterns 1 Apr 2021 / 912
23 - The Concept of Freedom 8 Jan 2022 / 965
24 - Materialism 7 Sept 2022 / 1011
[13:23] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:24] herman Bergson: I stilll see this alleged identity as a semantical issue
[13:24] CONNIE Eichel is online.
[13:25] herman Bergson: This means that word A and word B refer to the same matter in reality
[13:25] herman Bergson: The concept of identity here is really problematic
[13:26] herman Bergson: But the main idea is that a physicalist/materialist does not accept the existence of immaterial entities
[13:27] herman Bergson: so what do mental terms, psychological talk mean, refer to?
[13:27] herman Bergson: that is the question
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:28] herman Bergson: So maybe it is wiser not to speak about identity, but about correlation between psychological statements and physical (MRI scan reults) statements
[13:29] herman Bergson: But then you get the problem that correlations are relations between simultaneously occurring things
[13:30] herman Bergson: So what are these psychological statements....I am in pain....refer to.
[13:30] Darks Adria is online.
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well some kind of signals firing but can u decode that with an MRI machine or similar and set an actual value on it like a variable in programming
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ghetting the data / signals out is the first part
[13:31] herman Bergson: Is pain yet something more that just nerves firing?
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): firing in a certain way or on certain inputs
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like u can have 2 identical signals but on different inputs and what input fires is determining the type of sensation
[13:32] herman Bergson: intuitively you can be inclined to think that experiencing pain is more that just some activity of the central nervous system
[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): pain can be psychogical and fysical, 2 different feelings
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or same input but data is encoded in the signal itself, thats the 2 ways it can work basically
[13:33] herman Bergson: Well Beertje, that makes me think of phantom pain......
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): again taking references from programming how u there can encide meaning of signaling
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but thats what io know and can create analogies to
[13:34] herman Bergson: When someone gets a limb amputated, it happens that he still feels pain in the leg he doesn't have anymore
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the first case i say is more likley however cause u have different receptors for different senses and they send their own individual signal
[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes, that makes it 3 ways of feeling pain, pain that you have when a loveone dies for instance
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes
[13:35] herman Bergson: yes, emotional pain...
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:35] herman Bergson: or JOY....Happy Birthday Beertje ^_^
[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :))
[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thANK YOU :))))
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): your birthday Beertje?
[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes
[13:36] bergfrau Apfelbaum: aww!! Bärchen!!
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): YAY! (yay!)
[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): rl birthday
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ch on u then!
[13:36] herman Bergson: It is your birthday today, isn't it?????
[13:36] bergfrau Apfelbaum shouts: Happy Happy Happy Birthday
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): CG
[13:37] bergfrau Apfelbaum: yay
[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes it is
[13:37] herman Bergson: YEAH!!!!
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cheers then!
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:37] herman Bergson: Again one year younger...lucky you :-))
[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hahaha yes
[13:37] bergfrau Apfelbaum: we have to drink a glass wine!
[13:37] bergfrau Apfelbaum: drink
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yum
[13:37] herman Bergson: Time to dismiss class and celebrate :-)
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): good idea
[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): juhuuuuu
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and play some cards
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:38] herman Bergson: Thank you all again...it's party time now :-)
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:38] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you Herman
[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :))))))
