Monday, May 31, 2010

257: The Ways of Anarchism

The more you stress the liberty of the individual the closer you get to the idea that in fact the state itself or one of the major institutions, which restrict individual freedom, should be abolished. So a call for "an archos" (classic Greek: NO government.)

And thus anarchism is born. “Anarchism” is a social philosophy that rejects authoritarian government and maintains that voluntary institutions are best suited to express man’s natural social tendencies.

It seeks to diminish or even abolish authority in the conduct of human relations.[3] Anarchists may widely disagree on what additional criteria are required in anarchism.

The Oxford Companion to Philosophy says, "there is no single defining position that all anarchists hold, and those considered anarchists at best share a certain family resemblance." Some say, like Noam Chomsky, that anarchism and libertarianism are synonymous.

The idea that the state or governments is not the best solution for human beings to create a society is already old.

Lao Tzu, founder of Taoism in the sixth century BCE, once stated, "The more artificial taboos and restrictions there are in the world, the more the people are impoverished.... The more that laws and regulations are given prominence, the more thieves and robbers there will be."

You can hear his last statement in contemporary calls for legalizing all drugs. It would make disappear maybe 70% of all crimes ( and a lot of jobs on the police force).

An elaborate sketch of anarchism, although still without the name, was provided by William Godwin in his Enquiry concerning Political Justice (1793).

Godwin differed from most later anarchists in preferring to revolutionary action the gradual and, as it seemed to him, more natural process of discussion among men of good will, by which he hoped truth would eventually triumph through its own power.

Godwin rejected all established institutions and all social relations that suggested inequality or the power of one man over another, including marriage and the accumulation of property.

For the present he put his faith in small groups of men seeking truth and justice; for the future, in a society of free individuals organized locally in parishes and linked loosely in a society without frontiers and with the minimum of organization.

But really popular became anarchism in the period from 1850 till 1939. Main cause was that labor was discovered as a value and that the worker could free himself from all kinds of oppression by taking collective action.

Nineteenth century anarchism assumed a number of forms, and the points of variation between them lie in three main areas: the use of violence, the degree of cooperation compatible with individual liberty, and the form of economic organization appropriate to a libertarian society.

Around 1900 we had our own terrorists and a number of statesmen, politicians and royals were assassinated by anarchists in their zeal to overthrow a government.

It was called "propaganda of the deed" But as Peter Kropotkin wrote in 1887 in Le Révolté , "a structure based on centuries of history cannot be destroyed with a few kilos of dynamite"

We can discern two main historical traditions, individualist anarchism and social anarchism or collectivism , which have some different origins, values and evolution.The individualist wing of anarchism emphasises negative liberty, i.e. opposition to state or social control over the individual,

while those in the social wing emphasise positive liberty to achieve one's potential and argue that humans have needs that society ought to fulfill, "recognizing equality of entitlement".

Social anarchism calls for a system with public ownership of means of production and democratic control of all organizations, without any government authority or coercion.

It is the largest school of anarchism.Social anarchism rejects private property, seeing it as a source of social inequality, and emphasises cooperation and mutual aid. Thence it is about time that we are going to have a chat with a man like Karl Marx.

The Discussion

[13:16] herman Bergson: This ends anarchism here...I take control again ^_^
[13:17] herman Bergson: If you have any questions or remarks, feel free...
[13:17] Abraxas Nagy: ha-bloody-ha
[13:17] Abraxas Nagy: oops
[13:17] Kiki Walpanheim: Karl Marx was Anarchist?....Social Anachist...
[13:17] Bruce Mowbray: Godwin was reacting to the revolutions in France.
[13:17] herman Bergson: Yes Bruce...
[13:17] Bruce Mowbray: Similar to Edmund Burke.
[13:17] herman Bergson: Well was Marx an anarchist???
[13:17] Bruce Mowbray: no.
[13:18] Abraxas Nagy: i dont think so
[13:18] herman Bergson: He was a collectivist...
[13:18] herman Bergson: well he uses lots of ideas of anarchist theory
[13:18] herman Bergson: the idea of small self supporting communes
[13:19] herman Bergson: means of production not as private property
[13:19] Lena Sigall: would an anarchist society be able to have a military to protect itself?
[13:19] Kiki Walpanheim: like....overthrowing the exploiting class...which sounds like the idea of anarchism?
[13:19] Bruce Mowbray: Most governments around the world have adopted most of the principles of The Communist Manifesto.
[13:19] herman Bergson: Well Lena...there is even a word.... Minarchism...
[13:20] herman Bergson: It referst to the most minimal goverment... militairy and police and justice system
(Deleted comment)
[13:20] herman Bergson: All other things and interaction between people should be contract based...or in the free market
[13:21] Lena Sigall: couldn't then another society that has a big military invade the anarchist society and conquer them?
[13:21] herman Bergson: I the anarchist society has a strong army
[13:21] herman Bergson: Like Locke started with...
[13:22] herman Bergson: it is about Life, freedom and property...
[13:22] herman Bergson: Also the anarchist will de fend that
[13:22] herman Bergson: But...there are dozens of different anarchist theories
[13:22] herman Bergson: all with a different flavor
[13:23] Lena Sigall: how would anarchists be able to form a military, which is based on following orders and such?
[13:23] herman Bergson: Yes I see the paradox Lena....but this all should be based on mutual consent....
[13:24] Kiki Walpanheim: how do the anarchists think about national defense, social security,
[13:24] herman Bergson: basic to the anarchist theories as it to liberalism in general is the Social Contract idea
[13:25] herman Bergson: as I said....national defense would be based on consent...
[13:25] Lena Sigall: so for an anarchist, following orders would be acceptable as long as the soldiers weren't conscripted?
[13:25] herman Bergson: social security is something for the free market
[13:26] herman Bergson: But when you look at our complex societies....also here you hear the call for a smaller government
[13:26] Gemma Cleanslate: i have never figured out how anarchism would possible work in any form of government
[13:26] herman Bergson: I think it never worked Gemma....
[13:26] Lena Sigall: why not?
[13:26] Abraxas Nagy: exactly
[13:27] Abraxas Nagy: name me one anarchistic state
[13:27] herman Bergson: because it presupposes a few conditions regarding human behavior..
[13:27] Gemma Cleanslate: but then what do the anarchists really expect?
[13:27] herman Bergson: for instance the acceptance of equality....
[13:27] Kiki Walpanheim: i dont understand the social anarchism
[13:27] herman Bergson: then the assumption of rationality
[13:28] Kiki Walpanheim: how could ppl willingly give up property and ensure everyone else's "positive liberty" with no coercions at all
[13:28] Lena Sigall: in other words, people aren't smart or nice enough to make it work? XD
[13:29] herman Bergson: I think so Lena...
[13:29] Lena Sigall: sad but true
[13:29] herman Bergson: Proudhon came with the believe in mutualism....
[13:29] herman Bergson: the idea that when everybody is free and noboby has private property, but just what he needs....
[13:30] herman Bergson: and mutualy exchange the products of his labor....
[13:30] herman Bergson: A lot of communes were estabished in those days...
[13:30] Kiki Walpanheim: "his" -- which is not property based...
[13:30] herman Bergson: As happened in the 60s when there was a revival of anarchist theories
[13:31] Abraxas Nagy: in the 80's too
[13:31] herman Bergson: the only value a human being "posseses" is his ability to produce...
[13:31] Daruma Boa: yes the punks
[13:31] Abraxas Nagy: yep
[13:32] herman Bergson: and from there a lot of anarchist theories start
[13:32] Kiki Walpanheim: the theory seems like , when there is abundance of supply, when ppl only work for pleasure,
[13:32] Bruce Mowbray muses: 'Anarchists of the world, commune!'
[13:32] Abraxas Nagy: :))
[13:32] Gemma Cleanslate: on the moon
[13:32] Kiki Walpanheim: ;)
[13:33] herman Bergson: Around 1900 all like of labor unions and syndycates appeared...
[13:33] Lena Sigall: how does anarchism intersect with religion?
[13:33] herman Bergson: Labor is the value...
[13:33] Lena Sigall: the need for a "big guy in the sky" to tell you how to live? (for some people that is)
[13:33] Bruce Mowbray: Anarchy seems to appeal to some basic need in human nature -- freedom from . . . [parental controls???]
[13:33] herman Bergson: yes Bruce....
[13:34] herman Bergson: hardly a link with religion I would say
[13:34] Gemma Cleanslate: but then adulthood should bring some sense
[13:34] Abraxas Nagy: sometimes it doenst tho
[13:34] Gemma Cleanslate: i know
[13:34] Lena Sigall: but the majority of people seem to need to believe in a religious "authority"
[13:34] herman Bergson: In Locke's days...they accepted a creator, but he left after his job was done...
[13:34] Kiki Walpanheim: problem is...what is freedom, what is equality
[13:34] Bruce Mowbray: Deism. . .
[13:35] Kiki Walpanheim: Locke and Marx both say everybody is equal...but....
[13:35] herman Bergson: yes Kiki...
[13:35] Abraxas Nagy: exactly its relative
[13:35] herman Bergson: We'll certainly discuss those subjects soon
[13:35] Kiki Walpanheim: Locke and Marx both say , everybody shall be free from ....(whatever)
[13:35] Abraxas Nagy: ah
[13:36] Abraxas Nagy: rethorics
[13:36] herman Bergson: Yes, but they thought different about property Kiki
[13:36] Kiki Walpanheim: yes
[13:36] Kiki Walpanheim: they went opposite ways with the same terms
[13:36] herman Bergson: Yes.. ㋡
[13:37] Abraxas Nagy: relative thus
[13:37] herman Bergson: Like collectivism originated from anarchist theories
[13:37] Abraxas Nagy: i know lil about that
[13:38] Kiki Walpanheim: they both strive to achieve equality, freedom, justice, and prosperity... but
[13:38] herman Bergson: Well... I think the basic ideas here are freedom of the individual, the extend to what he may be constrained by a government
[13:38] herman Bergson: and the position of property in this political theory
[13:38] Abraxas Nagy: ah ok
[13:39] herman Bergson: It is clear that our present society is liberal to some extend
[13:39] herman Bergson: and that political debate is just a shifting with small margins..
[13:39] Kiki Walpanheim: does liberal mean higher tax, higher gov. spending as opposed to conservative, in this context?
[13:39] herman Bergson: Only in the US we have the TEa Party people....the minimalists...
[13:39] Kiki Walpanheim: nods
[13:39] Lena Sigall: :((
[13:40] Abraxas Nagy: :( ??
[13:40] Lena Sigall: was just lamenting to presence of the Tea Party in my country
[13:40] herman Bergson: Liberal should mean ...less tax...less enterprise....
[13:40] Gemma Cleanslate: :-) join the crowd
[13:40] Kiki Walpanheim: oh....
[13:40] Bruce Mowbray: The Tea Party folks behave like Taliban folks --- sometimes. They THREATEN people through fear-tactics.
[13:40] Gemma Cleanslate: yes
[13:41] Gemma Cleanslate: i would say some of them are close to anarchists
[13:41] Bruce Mowbray agrees with Gemma.
[13:41] herman Bergson: The socialists are always accused of creating more government, higher taxes (for the rich), no free market but redistribution of resources
[13:41] herman Bergson: and wealth
[13:41] Lena Sigall: is that true, would you say?
[13:41] Gemma Cleanslate: and that is what they say of liberals here
[13:42] Gemma Cleanslate: so .....
[13:42] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma...these Tea PArty people are minarchists so to speak
[13:42] Kiki Walpanheim: I dont quite believe how tea party option would work well either
[13:42] Gemma Cleanslate: it wont in the end
[13:42] Gemma Cleanslate: it is not a real party at all has no real leaders does not want any
[13:42] herman Bergson: Yes in the US they call people with socialist ideas liberals...
[13:43] herman Bergson: but that is probably because there dont exist socialists in the US
[13:43] herman Bergson: The ideas exist...
[13:43] Bruce Mowbray thinks: Excellent point.
[13:43] herman Bergson: but they dont dare to call them social or socialist ideas I guess ㋡
[13:44] Gemma Cleanslate: right
[13:44] Lena Sigall: why does the tea party get so much attention, anyway? they're a minority,.. right?
[13:44] Bruce Mowbray: How many Americans - who call themselves 'conservatives' - were criticizing Obama for NOT moving in to take over BP in the Gulf oil spill!
[13:44] herman Bergson: I hope so Lena
[13:45] Kiki Walpanheim: wonders what the tea party think of to fight recessions....just leave it be?
[13:45] Abraxas Nagy: ohh so a minority doenst have to be heard?
[13:45] Lena Sigall: sure it does
[13:45] Abraxas Nagy: right
[13:45] Gemma Cleanslate: because they are defying every one who is now in office adn want to replace them with ultraconservatives so are very visible in the media
[13:45] herman Bergson: Let's not start on that Abraxas.....
[13:45] Lena Sigall: but the attention to them is majory disproportionate
[13:45] Abraxas Nagy: mmm we better not
[13:45] Gemma Cleanslate: well ask the media
[13:45] Lena Sigall: i agree, Gemma
[13:46] Bruce Mowbray: agreed.
[13:46] herman Bergson: The majority/minority issue is actually also a Social Contract Issue
[13:46] Gemma Cleanslate: they cover the small groups who get together as if they were hugde!
[13:46] Bruce Mowbray: say more, please.
[13:46] Lena Sigall: Bush expanded government when he was in office (patriot act, for example),... where were their angry rallies then?
[13:46] Abraxas Nagy: it sure is
[13:46] Gemma Cleanslate: so right lol
[13:46] Abraxas Nagy: there's enough people outraged about it tho
[13:47] Bruce Mowbray: The social contract issue -- minority/majority?
[13:47] Abraxas Nagy: the patriot act that is
[13:47] Lena Sigall: i think they are mainly just fairly wealthy white people afraid a black president is going to "take" their money and give it to "lazy" black people
[13:47] Bruce Mowbray agrees with Lena.
[13:47] herman Bergson: If the start of a society is a contract....we all have to stick to it....obey it...
[13:47] Abraxas Nagy: listen... Obama is simply a Wallstreet puppet
[13:48] herman Bergson: Some forms of Anarchism demanded full consensus.
[13:48] Daruma Boa: ^^
[13:48] Bruce Mowbray: yes . . . even if we're a minority, right?
[13:48] Gemma Cleanslate: oh ab so so wrong
[13:48] herman Bergson: HOLD ON....
[13:48] Lena Sigall: that's the funny part ... Obama's not that liberal and sure isn't a socialist lol
[13:48] Abraxas Nagy: its proven
[13:48] herman Bergson: Let's keep the media out!
[13:48] herman Bergson: And individual people..
[13:48] herman Bergson: and stick to the general ideas ㋡
[13:48] Bruce Mowbray: Quakers, for example, make decisions only through consensus.
[13:48] Gemma Cleanslate: getting off track lol
[13:49] herman Bergson: yes Bruce....
[13:49] Lena Sigall: ok herman
[13:49] Abraxas Nagy: yep.. sorry
[13:49] herman Bergson: But if majority vote is a clause in the contract...the minority should respect that
[13:50] herman Bergson: day you belong to this minority and the other day on an other issue to a majority
[13:50] Bruce Mowbray: or a certain % of the majority -- like 2/3 in the Congress.....
[13:50] Lena Sigall: well..... in America the majority says, for example, that gays can't be married,... isn't it wrong for a minority to have their rights violated by a bigoted majority?
[13:50] Kiki Walpanheim: also, what can be decided by vote, what cannot,
[13:50] Bruce Mowbray: That's - at present - is up to the states -- not federal (nation=wide).
[13:50] herman Bergson: Hold on for a moment.....
[13:51] herman Bergson: What Lena is saying refers to a moral majority....
[13:51] herman Bergson: The same problem as in Victorian age....
[13:51] Bruce Mowbray: GW Bush tried to get a Constitution Amendment outlawing gay marriage, but that failed. MANY states have outlawed it, though -- like the one I live in.
[13:51] herman Bergson: Is is as a cloack spread over society and disables the democratic processes
[13:52] Lena Sigall: can you elaborate herman?
[13:52] Kiki Walpanheim: remember socrates executed by majority vote....
[13:52] herman Bergson: Ministers, priests , all that kind of people are not democratically chosen....
[13:53] herman Bergson: butt they lean heavily on society with their moral judgements and demands..
[13:53] Abraxas Nagy: coalitions arent either
[13:53] Abraxas Nagy: chosen that is
[13:53] herman Bergson: That is why Locke and others wanted State and religion to be separated…
[13:53] Lena Sigall: but i mean, when gay marriage rights are up for a vote, they usually fail
[13:54] Kiki Walpanheim: marx went even one step further than that...
[13:54] Kiki Walpanheim: when state and religion were more separated...
[13:54] herman Bergson: yes....but that is because the liberal assumes rationality as basis of human action....while reality shows different
[13:54] Gemma Cleanslate: lol yes
[13:54] herman Bergson: It is not that black and white or simple
[13:55] Abraxas Nagy: it never is
[13:55] Gemma Cleanslate: nothing in philosophy is
[13:55] Kiki Walpanheim: the world is grey
[13:55] herman Bergson: so sometimes rationality prevails, sometimes irrationality, sometimes even plain stupidity ^_^
[13:55] Bruce Mowbray thinks: Where are the edges between "things"?
[13:56] Lena Sigall: but others are forced to agree to the stupid votes as part of a social contract?
[13:56] herman Bergson: So, I would suggest to continue our Quest in Political Philosophy...
[13:56] Gemma Cleanslate: :-)
[13:56] Kiki Walpanheim: :-)
[13:56] Gemma Cleanslate: Tuesday
[13:56] Bruce Mowbray: Wonderful, prof!
[13:56] herman Bergson: And I want to thank you for this brilliant discussion of today
[13:56] Daruma Boa: yes great
[13:56] Gemma Cleanslate: have a nice holiday weekend all those who have one
[13:56] Abraxas Nagy: thank you professor
[13:56] Daruma Boa: .-'`'-. APPLAUSE APPLAUSE .-'`'-.
[13:56] Kiki Walpanheim: Thank you Professor and all
[13:56] Bruce Mowbray: [`·.] APPLAUSE!! [.·´]
[13:56] Abraxas Nagy: ***** APPPPPPPLLLLAAAUUUSSSSEEEEEEE***********
[13:56] herman Bergson: another gem for our blog
[13:56] Abraxas Nagy: ***** APPPPPPPLLLLAAAUUUSSSSEEEEEEE***********
[13:56] Qwark Allen: ::::::::: * E * X * C * E * L * L * E * N * T * ::::::::::
[13:56] Lena Sigall: thanks, herman
[13:56] Bruce Mowbray: [`·.] APPLAUSE!! [.·´]
[13:56] Abraxas Nagy: GODLIKE !!!!!
[13:56] Gemma Cleanslate: see you soon
[13:57] Josiane Llewellyn: Thanks Professor :)
[13:57] herman Bergson: Thank you all....Class Dismissed ㋡
[13:57] Abraxas Nagy: wow
[13:57] ZANICIA Chau: Many thanks professor. Goodbye, Look forward to the next meet
[13:57] bergfrau Apfelbaum: danke herman:-))
[13:57] bergfrau Apfelbaum: remain please, our philosophical leader! Mr. professor
[13:57] bergfrau Apfelbaum: :-)))
[13:57] Daruma Boa: yes hope 2 see u soon herman;-)
[13:57] Kiki Walpanheim whispers: that is german right?
[13:57] Lena Sigall: see you next time, all
[13:57] herman Bergson: gerne geschehen...Bergie
[13:57] dzjengis Parx: thx and bey all
[13:57] bergfrau Apfelbaum: :-)
[13:57] Abraxas Nagy: c ya Lemna :D
[13:57] Zinzi Serevi: bye bye Lena
[13:57] Zinzi's translator: bye bye Lena
[13:58] herman Bergson: Yes Kiki
[13:58] Abraxas Nagy: Lena*
[13:58] Daruma Boa: bye all!!
[13:58] bergfrau Apfelbaum: see u tuesday
[13:58] Kiki Walpanheim: that is the only word i know in german ;-)
[13:58] Kiki Walpanheim: see you tuesday
[13:58] Abraxas Nagy: bye Daruma
[13:58] Abraxas Nagy: bye all
[13:58] Zinzi Serevi: bye bye abrax
[13:58] Zinzi's translator: bye bye abrax
[13:59] herman Bergson: Bye Zinzi!
[13:59] Zinzi Serevi: thanks prof en tot vlug
[13:59] Zinzi's translator: thanks to fast and professional
[13:59] herman Bergson: OK ㋡

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