Sunday, May 17, 2020

851: We Are Still OK.....

I ended my previous lecture with the question: Is it really true that when pushed somewhat 
we are as obedient as dogs or is there another possible explanation for this kind of obedient behavior?
Now the archives are open and we can make a more accurate analysis of Zimbardo and Milgram's experiments, there is a lot to be said about the results.
Zimbardo explicitly manipulated the participants in the experiment to get the outcome he wanted.
This may be one of the reasons why replication of the experiment never came up with similar results.
Replication of the Milgram experiment, however, showed time and again the same outcome. 
So, maybe it was not the uniform  like Zimbardo thought, that drove ordinary people to atrocities,
but it would be the willingness to obey when properly pushed, like Milgram assumed.
You have to keep an eye on the context here. It is after World War II and everything about the Holocaust had become public.
Understandably social psychologists wanted to explain and understand this unbelievable inhuman behavior.
And when you are a young and ambitious social psychologist you want result, that make headlines.
In what sense were the Milgam "teachers" really obedient. When they resisted, the man in the grey dust coat had four verbal "pushes".
One: "please continue..."
Two: "The experiment demands that you continue"
Three: "It is absolutely essential that you continue."
Four: "You have no other choice: you have to continue."
Only four is a real order. And what showed up by accurate analysis of many recordings of Milgram sessions? 
As soon as the man in the grey dust coat used four, the testpersons stopped, every testperson stopped and refused to continue
and the harder he pushed, the more disobedient and stubborn the testpersons became.
But why did so many people to more or less extend obey in the Millgam experiment? 
Two English psychologists, Alex Haslam and Steve Reicher, came with an interesting explanation for the behavior of the testpersons.
They pointed out that most subjects entered the laboratory in a helpful mood. They were  eager to help the man in the grey dust coat. 
So they sided with the man in the gray dust coat. After all, it was HIS experiment and eventually it would mean something good for science.
As Beertje correctly concluded last Tuesday. People believed that they did something for the good.
Don't forget that the surroundings of the experiment was the prestigious Yale University, thence, what is happening there can only be for the good.
Yet they battled with a huge dilemma....the good they did for science and the audible suffering of the "student".
Based on the Milgram experiment there is at least one conclusion possible. Many of us can be seduced to do evil, if manipulated and brainwashed enough,
so that we believe that we actually do good. But evil is not on the surface. It has to be pumped up with great effort. And most importantly, it must invariably disguise itself as the good.
Other psychologists concluded that the Milgram experiments were not about obedience, but about conformism.
Because we would rather feel friendship and recognition than hatred and aversion, we run the risk of becoming uncritical followers.
To prevent this is a serious task for each of us, which might be achieved by constantly questioning and wondering about the obvious.
It will keep us OK.....
Thank you for your attention again....

Main Sources:
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995
Rutger Bregman, "De meeste mensen deugen",, 2019

The Discussion

[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Well Hitler told about jews as child eating monsters and similar and got people believing him, its maybe not so strange he succeded with his evil murderous deeds
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): have to watch those volunteer experiments
[13:25] herman Bergson: Indeed Bejiita.....
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): what is really right and what is really wrong, I guess thats what these experiment were about
[13:25] herman Bergson: Hitler brought jobs, prosperity and an ideology....all for the good
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): to see through all this
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Mussolini too
[13:26] herman Bergson: We are social animals and we want to belong to the group.....
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): not be outsiders
[13:26] herman Bergson: So we stand for the good and wellbeing of our group, tribe, nation....
[13:27] herman Bergson: as I said...if we are manipulated and brainwashed enough....we might fall for donig evil
[13:27] CB Axel: Germany
[13:27] herman Bergson: That is why we need a free press for stay vigilant
[13:27] Jack Lust (jacklust): suicide bombers are a good example of that
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): is very true
[13:28] Jack Lust (jacklust): that's the extreme of that though
[13:28] CB Axel: Germany's economy was doing badly. Hitler found a group who could be blamed and exploited that.
[13:28] herman Bergson: fanatic terrorists, fanatic believers in whatever religion.......they kill for the good too, like the germans thought they were doing with the Jews
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): same issue
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:30] herman Bergson: The dangerous people in politics are the "gut feeling" people.....
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hates teh idea of false experiments tho
[13:30] herman Bergson: The populists
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): tsk
[13:31] herman Bergson: The experiments were questionable indeed Gemma
[13:31] herman Bergson: The Prison Experiment was a hoax....
[13:31] Jack Lust (jacklust): I agree with herman, gut feeling people tend to not rely on expert advice
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ha sounds familiar right now!!!
[13:32] Jack Lust (jacklust): right?
[13:32] herman Bergson: But keep in mind.....those scientists were looking at the legacy of WW2......the Holocoust
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): SOME people
[13:32] herman Bergson: Indeed Jack.....
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): too many people tho
[13:32] CB Axel: The prison experiment was a hoax, but the Milgam experiment was a good one.
[13:32] herman Bergson: They come with arguments like....Only when you are a real patriot...bla bla
[13:32] Jack Lust (jacklust): we are all guilty of it to some degree
[13:32] CB Axel: Properly done.
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): was it??
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): amazed it went on at Yale
[13:33] CB Axel: The didn't manipulate the results.
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): true
[13:33] herman Bergson: Milgram was better and when replicated came withthe same results
[13:33] herman Bergson: BUT....
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not into shocks
[13:33] herman Bergson: when the experiment was done in a dull office instead a uni lab, the percentages dropped
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (Zaps Gemma with 400 V 3 phase cable) BZZZZZT!
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): MUHHSSHHS sorry!
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): h
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:34] herman Bergson: SO, the environment of the experiment was also significant
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): interesting
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): no class watching
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:35] herman Bergson: But nevertheless....every time people obeyed
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): to a point
[13:35] herman Bergson: maybe not 65%, but only 40% in the office environment.....don't know the real numbers
[13:35] CB Axel: I guess people respected science back then. :)
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ohoh
[13:36] herman Bergson: Might be true indeed CB
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bad timing on experiments at that time
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): thinks of those done without the person's knowledge
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): went on a lot
[13:37] herman Bergson: Our main question still is......are most people OK still?
[13:37] herman Bergson: or did the experiments destroyed this assumption
[13:38] CB Axel: Maybe, but the OK people are too easily manipulated by the not OK people.
[13:38] herman Bergson: That is what crossed my mind too, CB....
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): still thinks more ok people
[13:39] herman Bergson: That is why I said we should fight for a free press, keep asking questions, stay vigilant....
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh wow yes
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): very important
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): more free press doing down or will go down
[13:39] Jack Lust (jacklust): certainly, a free press is necessary
[13:39] herman Bergson: And again our main point here.....we need well educated good and free education for all
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): otherwise brainwashing will continue
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but those free press need ot be paid
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): leading to more of these horrifying things
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not laid off
[13:40] herman Bergson: and it should not be in the hands and controls of one single multimillionaire
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sigh
[13:41] herman Bergson: like a Murdock...
[13:41] CB Axel nods
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Fox did not show the hearing today
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i checked
[13:42] herman Bergson: I still don't understand what drives these Fox people
[13:42] Jack Lust (jacklust): lies, mostly, I think
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): far far far right beliefs
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I guss
[13:42] herman Bergson: unless you assume they really believe they are doing the good....
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and money
[13:43] Jack Lust (jacklust): I was just about to say greed
[13:43] herman Bergson: what comes first Gemma?
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well same side as mr trumpy flumpy who believe all other are fake
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): money
[13:43] herman Bergson: the money or the far right beliefs
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako) whispers: when it is really the other way around!
[13:43] CB Axel: I have a picture I found on the internet (of course. where else?) that says "The news used to tell you what happened, then you had to decide what you thought about it...
[13:44] CB Axel: Now the news tells you how to think about something, and you have to decide if it really happened."
[13:44] herman Bergson: True CB
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ha true
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): more brainwashing
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sighs
[13:44] CB Axel: The far right beliefs (except for the religious nuts) is about money.
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): which is why they love greedy trump
[13:45] herman Bergson: no...they call it...THE ECONOMY.....
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): even le lies like nothing else
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): he
[13:45] herman Bergson: everything for the economy :-)
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they even believe in his lies 100% I bet
[13:45] Jack Lust (jacklust): he lies as casually as he breathes
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh they do
[13:45] CB Axel: It's not THE economy. It's their economy.
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): amazing
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (sighs again)
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): even tho the sky is blue
[13:46] herman Bergson: Right, CB
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): WHY?
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): some truly hate any form of government
[13:46] herman Bergson: It is the world of the  shareholders today
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and believe he does too
[13:46] CB Axel: Bejiita, they are hurting. Their lives aren't what they would like them to be. They're struggling and think Trump will help them.
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ad i think he really hates government except for his power
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): some love guns first
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): above anything
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we can see te same thing in Amazons This Bolzo idiot plowing down the planets most important ecosystem for what wll profit of course and he say that all scientists lies about climate change and it just BS while he goes on with the chainsaws
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): horrifying
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): some love him because of his so called being against abortion
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Amazonas make over 20% of all oxygen
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) whispers: which i really doubt is true
[13:47] CB Axel: He and the other mega-wealthy hate anything they think will bring them down to size. A good government that truly for the people would do that.
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): some understand his disdain of women and agree
[13:48] CB Axel: *that is
[13:48] herman Bergson: I agree CB :-)
[13:49] CB Axel: I just don't understand why they need so much money. What are they doing with it?
[13:49] herman Bergson: I guess we not only saved the world today but also the US :-)
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): STATUS
[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): is hoping there are enough that stop him
[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): in November
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like IM BETTER THEN U ALL I HAVE MONEY FUCK U ALLL BLAAAAH!
[13:50] Jack Lust (jacklust): sadly, the world is far from saved
[13:50] herman Bergson: I hope so too, Gemma...
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I HATE that kind of people!
[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i see glimmers
[13:50] CB Axel: Gold toilets? Multiple yachts? Who needs more than one yacht? You can only sail one at a time. And that's assuming anyone *needs* a yacht in the first place.
[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but then ot sure
[13:50] herman Bergson: Don't be so pessimistic Jack
[13:51] CB Axel: I'm with Jack.
[13:51] Jack Lust (jacklust): this pandemic will bring people together for a while sure.  But greed still runs everything and I doubt that will change soon
[13:51] herman Bergson: In this world the population grew from 1 billion to 7.7 billion in hardly 200 years.....
[13:51] CB Axel: The pandemic is driving people farther apart.
[13:51] Jack Lust (jacklust): in the short term it is
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): some people
[13:51] Jack Lust (jacklust): but that will change
[13:52] Jack Lust (jacklust): the ones getting together now will likely regret it soon enough
[13:52] herman Bergson: We have worldwide better education and healthcare for instance....sufficient food production, science...
[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep
[13:52] CB Axel: I just hope that now that Covid is in the Whitehouse that Trump and Pence will get it and suffer.
[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): almost world wide
[13:52] herman Bergson: Just look how we handle this pandemic.....
[13:52] herman Bergson: YEs CB :-)
[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i keep hoping he will get it
[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:53] Jack Lust (jacklust): if they do get it, you know it will be sold as a conspiracy to bring them down...
[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i really do
[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh right jack
[13:53] Jack Lust (jacklust): conspiracy*
[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): true
[13:53] herman Bergson: In the Middle Ages 50% of the European population died of the plague....
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and then after they have died from it we can bury them in a nuclear waste dispoal somewhere!
[13:53] CB Axel: I just want to see how he'd blame getting sick on Obama. LOL
[13:53] Jack Lust (jacklust): he will find a way
[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh he would try
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and let some COMPETENT people rule US
[13:53] Jack Lust (jacklust): anyone but himself, really
[13:54] Jack Lust (jacklust): the good news is SL is not affected by him, lol
[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well
[13:54] CB Axel: :)
[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): once in a while
[13:54] herman Bergson: Keep up the good spirit....where there is time, there is hope :-)
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and he has not started WW3 killing the world with nukes
[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep
[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yet
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that was what I was most afraid of in the beginning
[13:54] herman Bergson: Me too
[13:54] CB Axel: Me, too, Bejiita.
[13:55] Jack Lust (jacklust): that's a pretty low bar though Bejiita
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): because I kenw he was insane
[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well he is truly against war i think
[13:55] herman Bergson: I think so too profit in it...
[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): unless he gets really really mad
[13:55] CB Axel: Only because he hasn't found a way to profit from it.
[13:55] CB Axel: Yet
[13:56] CB Axel: *from
[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but all stupid things he have said could possibly have caused it, irritating some other dangerous person
[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right
[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and BOOOOOM!
[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): luckily that have not occurred either
[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but this is how world wars have started before
[13:56] herman Bergson: Well...I hope that all won't happen.....
[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): make the wrong person mad
[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (shudders)
[13:57] herman Bergson: and concluding our discussion....I suggest we all may kiss the bride ^_^
[13:57] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right now i think everyone is too sick for war
[13:57] herman Bergson: Thank you all again..
[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): probably
[13:57] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol
[13:57] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.
[13:57] herman Bergson: Class dismissed :-)
[13:57] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): not alll please
[13:57] Jack Lust (jacklust): thanks Herman!
[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well interesting as usual
[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu next time
[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:57] CB Axel: See you all next week. Have a nice weekend. :)
[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hugs all
[13:57] herman Bergson: Have a nice weekend you all
[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): stay safe
[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:57] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bye for now!!!
[13:57] Jack Lust (jacklust): take care everyone
[13:58] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): stay healthy
[13:58] herman Bergson: Yes Beertje....

No comments:

Post a Comment