Tuesday, June 2, 2020

855: What Drives Us.......?

During World War II the Allied forces had a Psychological Warfare Division. Its task was to understand the enemy and try to demoralize him.
Most psychologists were convinced that the fighting power of an army was decided by one thing: ideology.
The love for your country, the belief in your political party. Soldiers that believed that they were on the right side of history, would fight the best.
And the German soldiers kept on fighting with unwavering ferocity, even when the situation was clearly a lost cause.
Maybe the average German soldier didn't know about the deplorable state of his situation, or maybe he was so brain washed, or maybe he was  such a fanatic nazi.......
Morris Janowitz (1919 - 1988) enlisted at the age of 24 as a recently graduated sociologist and started to work at the Psych Warfare Division.
After the war he became a professor who made major contributions to sociological theory, the study of prejudice, urban issues, and patriotism. 
He was one of the founders of military sociology and made major contributions  to the establishment of contemporary civil-military relations.
For weeks he interviewed one German prisoner of war after another. He wanted to find out why they had kept on fighting and he got time and again the same answer.
No, it was not the belief that they still could win, they were not brain washed, it was not the attractiveness of the nazi ideology.
the real reason for the superhuman achievements of the German army was; "Kameradschaft" / Friendship.
They hadn't been fighting for the nazi beliefs, but for each other. Loyalty, companionship and self-sacrifice were the most important, 
while Jew-hatred and ideological purity played only a small role. We are talking here about the common Wehrmacht soldier,
who was a civilian, a teacher or a clerk, a baker,  before he was dressed in a uniform. The SS is another piece of cake.
It is not easy to imagine camaraderie in the Wehrmacht. 
We have been flooded with Hollywood films about American heroism and German madness for decades.
That our own boys gave their lives for each other? Obvious. That they grew into inseparable "Bands or Brothers"? Speaks for itself. 
But that this also applied to the German hordes? Or worse, perhaps those Germans forged even closer friendships?  And that is why they fought better?
Some truths are too painful. Surely it cannot be that these monsters were also driven by the good in man? 
That they were just as full of courage and loyalty, self-sacrifice, dedication and inspiration? 
Yet that is exactly what Morris Janowitz concluded.
Again we see that we are a social animal and not a pack of selfish genes and in almost every area of our lives, our behaviour is influenced far more by others than we'd like to imagine.
Thank you for your attention again....

Main Sources:
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995
Rutger Bregman, "De meeste mensen deugen",, 2019

The Discussion

[13:16] herman Bergson: Keep in mind...the fact that soldiers fight a war is an other matter.....what we discuss here is what drives them
[13:16] CB Axel: I can understand that once men find themselves in the army (or any branch of the military) they stick together out of brotherhood, but what makes them join up in the first place?
[13:16] Jack Lust (jacklust): "us vs them" can be a powerful motivator
[13:16] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:16] Dien (djdien.bailey) is offline.
[13:17] theo Velde is online.
[13:17] herman Bergson: Right CB....
[13:17] herman Bergson: But remember....if one thinks he does it for the good, whatever that may be for that person, it is not a negative thing to enlist
[13:18] herman Bergson: Indeed Jack.....
[13:18] Jack Lust (jacklust): "they" are out to get you, without defining who "they" are, in that case, people just figured it was the jews
[13:18] herman Bergson: and it often is used as a motivator
[13:18] herman Bergson: You can see that very day around you happen
[13:18] CB Axel: Some people join up for financial benefit; to get themselves out of poverty.
[13:19] Jack Lust (jacklust): the NRA does that kind of messaging all the time
[13:19] herman Bergson: or to get a good education
[13:19] iמʞαʞů (inkaku.capalini): if we are talking German soldiers, I think a majority of them joined up to keep from being killed by their own.
[13:19] herman Bergson: Yes....enlisting was mandatory.....
[13:19] Lente (lentelies.anatine) is offline.
[13:20] herman Bergson: And you were always told that you do it for the good cause
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that the common thing ye
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:20] herman Bergson: It is our nature ....the willingness to do good.....not to do bad
[13:21] herman Bergson: It really is in our DNA
[13:21] herman Bergson: In World War One only 5 % of the soldiers really shot at the enemy....
[13:22] herman Bergson: Or was it 15%....but even then
[13:23] herman Bergson: It proves time and again that most people are ok
[13:23] herman Bergson: The media focuses us on those who are not ok
[13:24] Jack Lust (jacklust): there no news in good news
[13:24] herman Bergson: which undermines the conviction that yet most people are ok :-))
[13:24] Ciska Riverstone: well the interesting question here is - why can the majority ok people not stop the crazy ones
[13:25] Jack Lust (jacklust): because they look just like everyone else
[13:25] herman Bergson: Yes Ciska....a good point....
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its because the crazy ones (like trump and Kim jong) have an army of similarly minded crazy people that will massacre them if they tried
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so no one can get to them
[13:26] herman Bergson: That's to simple Bejiiita
[13:26] iמʞαʞů (inkaku.capalini): comparing Trump to Jong is pretty far fetched
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they are both bastards that need to go  away
[13:27] iמʞαʞů (inkaku.capalini): so sayeth people who watch main stream media
[13:27] Jack Lust (jacklust): but that's not the discussion
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and they have TONS of power
[13:27] herman Bergson: That is just a wish not a philosophical argument....
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and money
[13:27] Frontyard 1.0: There was someone in the Frontyard:  oola Neruda!
[13:27] CB Axel: Trump wishes he was Kim
[13:27] Ciska Riverstone: the point is someone gives the power to them
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:27] herman Bergson: Yes Ciska, and that is a very complex process....
[13:28] Ciska Riverstone: u can use trump right now - some governors do not give him the power of deciding over their covid action
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I guess so
[13:28] Lecturehall 1.0: There was someone in the Lecturehall:  oola Neruda!
[13:28] herman Bergson: For instance.....Trump is not the cause of the present situation.....
[13:28] Ciska Riverstone: other sort of do
[13:28] herman Bergson: he is the result of an ongoing social process
[13:29] herman Bergson: Let's stick to the main question.....
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): he would indeed not be there if not for all supporting him and his lying and BS talk
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): many do
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I dont
[13:29] iמʞαʞů (inkaku.capalini): do you live in the US?
[13:29] (add) Chicken Handheld and click: Ciska Riverstone
[13:29] herman Bergson: why can't the OK people stop and control the not-ok people, if they yet are the majority as I claim
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I guess its more complex then it seems
[13:30] herman Bergson: First question is.....is the assumption in this question correct
[13:30] herman Bergson: and I'd say NO
[13:30] herman Bergson: to begin with....
[13:31] herman Bergson: climate change is a problem and caused by our system but it is fought worldwide now
[13:31] herman Bergson: communist dictaorships have collapsed
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa thats a good thing
[13:32] herman Bergson: the neo-liberal policies are havily debated and questioned at the moment
[13:32] herman Bergson: the gap between poor and rich is under fire (Pickety and others)
[13:32] herman Bergson: The position of the super wealthy 1% is under debate
[13:33] herman Bergson: So...what is our situation?
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that we are hopefully moving in the right direction now
[13:33] herman Bergson: Can't  those who are OK change things yes or no...is it happening
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): despite all going on
[13:33] Jack Lust (jacklust): it seems things need to get out of hand before they are reigned in again
[13:34] herman Bergson: I have said it numerous times......
[13:34] herman Bergson: Keep an eye on the time perspective....
[13:34] herman Bergson: We are inclined to think that the problems we see have to be solved within our lifetime
[13:34] herman Bergson: but that is a misconception....
[13:35] herman Bergson: some problems were solved after a hundred years of trying and development
[13:35] herman Bergson: some took centuries
[13:35] herman Bergson: but.....they were solved
[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): do we like to live in a world without problems? or is that boring?
[13:36] herman Bergson: that doesnt sound realistic Beertje....
[13:37] Jack Lust (jacklust): but our problems should be "how do we get to the next solar system" not "how do I beat the crap out my neighbors"
[13:37] herman Bergson: That we will die eventually, get sick, get an accident....it all happens
[13:37] iמʞαʞů (inkaku.capalini): hahaha
[13:38] herman Bergson: Indeed a more interesting approach Jack :-)
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol
[13:38] herman Bergson: But let me repeat again....
[13:38] herman Bergson: There do not exist problems.....there only exist a lack of solutions
[13:38] (add) Chicken Handheld and click: Ciska Riverstone
[13:39] herman Bergson: point here is that we don't always know what time it will take to find the solution
[13:39] theo Velde is offline.
[13:39] herman Bergson: and when we never find a solution, then, what we called isn't a problem but a fact of life
[13:40] herman Bergson: I can wave my arms in an attempt to fly.......
[13:40] herman Bergson: if I don't succeed I can see that as a problem or a fact of life
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): drink more red bull Herman
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol
[13:41] herman Bergson: in between solution.....design a flying machine :-)
[13:41] (add) Chicken Handheld and click: Ciska Riverstone
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that is probably a better thing to do, one that works, evetually
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:41] Ĺäđуу Ήäνéռ (ladyy.haven) is online.
[13:41] herman Bergson: That;s the plan Bejiita ^_^
[13:42] herman Bergson: What about your question Ciska...what do you think?
[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: well for me it does boils down a bit to the "what is responsibility?" nowadays thing
[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: and if we have it can we execute it?
[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: so somehow thats where I see the solution on the long run
[13:44] herman Bergson: At least we are responsible for our survival....
[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont) is online.
[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: /welcome back beertje
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): welcome back Beertje
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:45] herman Bergson: For instance...making the richer mor rich and the poor more poor will not contribute to our survival
[13:45] herman Bergson: To produce more  and more CO2 neither
[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you
[13:46] herman Bergson: To not equally share the wealth of this earth neither
[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: yes - but the means we use to "work against that" are at the moment not working
[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: because we constructed entities which do not take on responsibility
[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: we constructed those for good reasons
[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: to help us organize things
[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: but they got out of hand
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:47] Jack Lust (jacklust): and the people with the power to really make a difference don't want to because there isn't as much profit in it
[13:47] herman Bergson: I agree.....it might take one or two generations to get things done Ciska
[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: responsibility is rooted not only in "rational" but in "emotional" need too.
[13:47] herman Bergson: That is the present situation Jack....but will this stay the same
[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: and as long as we have entities which are totally non emotional but still can take us hostage for having emotional needs - we are in trouble
[13:48] CB Axel: It seems that we fix things like that in the short term, but then it happens all over again.
[13:48] Jack Lust (jacklust): we can bring our own bags to the grocery store and recycle, but it won't make a difference when the recycling company is just burning it all
[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: yes - so basically ...
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:48] CB Axel: The rich get richer and more powerful and the poor get poorer until we fix it again.
[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: right now the organization in smaller flat hierarchic entities is the way to go
[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: as it seems
[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: the funny thing is
[13:48] CB Axel: And then it starts all over again.
[13:49] Ciska Riverstone: even cooperations understand that
[13:49] CB Axel: We may be ok, but we're really stupid.
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): here in Sweden was a story of a battery recycling company that just dumped it all in an environmentally sensitive area
[13:49] Ciska Riverstone: and try to apply it
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): right into the ground
[13:49] herman Bergson: Indeed Ciska
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): was a huge scandal when they found out about this
[13:50] herman Bergson: And the scandal may bring us a small step further
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): throwing the batteries in the little red box made more harm then if not
[13:50] Jack Lust (jacklust): and that is entirely out of the average person's ability to control
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hopefully this is solved now
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:50] herman Bergson: keep in mind the short term AND the long term.....
[13:51] herman Bergson: where there is time there is hope
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I don't know what happens more then the "burnables" are made into heat and electricity at the local power plant and our wage and food leftovers are turned into biogas that drives the city buses
[13:51] herman Bergson: Let me point at another fact.....
[13:52] herman Bergson: The world population increased from 1 billion to 7 billion in only the past 200 years...
[13:52] herman Bergson: That only can mean that we did something good at least.....
[13:53] herman Bergson: medic care.....food production.....education....
[13:53] herman Bergson: We did something OK :-)
[13:53] (add) Chicken Handheld and click: Ciska Riverstone
[13:53] (add) Chicken Handheld and click: Ciska Riverstone
[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): 7 billion people is that ok for the earth?
[13:54] herman Bergson whispers: I still try to convince CB ^_^
[13:54] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): earth
[13:54] oola Neruda: we need zero population growth
[13:54] Jack Lust (jacklust): we have the ability to feed twice that number of people, if only we used our resources more wisely
[13:54] herman Bergson: Indeed Jack.....
[13:54] oola Neruda: we are destroying the resources that we have
[13:54] CB Axel: I don't see more humans being the answer to fixing what's wrong with humans.
[13:54] oola Neruda: due to greed
[13:54] Jack Lust (jacklust): exactly
[13:55] herman Bergson: there nowhere is a sign that shows the max number of earthlings allowed
[13:55] Jack Lust (jacklust): we just have to get better at being human
[13:55] herman Bergson: I agree CB....
[13:55] Ciska Riverstone: well - have a look into the "manosphere" on the web and they will tell you the solution for that ;)
[13:56] herman Bergson: That's the whole idea Jack!
[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:56] Jack Lust (jacklust): we aren't there yet though
[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:56] herman Bergson: Working on it, Jack ^_^
[13:57] herman Bergson: We covered already a lot of terrain today :-)
[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I guess we did
[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): seems sos
[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so
[13:57] herman Bergson: So I guess your brain deserve a rest....:-)
[13:57] herman Bergson: Thank you all again for this nice debate....
[13:58] Guestboook van tipjar stand: CB Axel donated L$100. Thank you very much, it is much appreciated!
[13:58] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman and class.
[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as it should be
[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:58] herman Bergson: Have a nice and healthy weekend...
[13:58] Guestboook van tipjar stand: JackLust Resident donated L$200. Thank you very much, it is much appreciated!
[13:58] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...
[13:58] Jack Lust (jacklust): thanks everyone!
[13:58] CB Axel: See you all next week.
[13:58] Ciska Riverstone: yes  - be save everyone - thank you herman - thanx all
[13:58] bergfrau Apfelbaum: Thank you Herman and World:-)
[13:58] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): take care every one
[13:59] herman Bergson: Ciska leave that chicken alone ...lol
[13:59] Ciska Riverstone: its so cute
[13:59] bergfrau Apfelbaum: lol
[13:59] herman Bergson: it is...true
[13:59] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): nice dress Ciska:)
[13:59] Ciska Riverstone: heheh its perfect - a real beertje
[13:59] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): smiles
[14:00] Ciska Riverstone: thanx again

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