Tuesday, December 1, 2020

886: And then is went wrong.....

John Locke's primary question was what should be the relation between a government and a free individual?


Adam Smith shifted the question to the relationship between the government and economics of an individual and a country.

For the Liberal the central question is the position of the government.


Most fascinating is, that there was this strong emphasis on the freedom of the individual, so typical for European political philosophy.


Where did it come from, I don't know. Of course, history is a process of cause and effect and we come up with dozens of explanations of why this, why that,


but like in evolution there is no logic or some set of natural laws that steer the process. We have improved and endangered our position on this globe both.


Thence, I have no clue why we have arrived at where we are now except that man has the inclination to believe in stories.


And when we do that collectively it helps us to organize cooperation among millions of people.


It was Milton Friedman (1922 -2006} who has told us the ultimate story of what liberalism is and how we should look at the role of a government in relation to our individual freedom.


In his book "Capitalism and Freedom", of which more than 400,000 copies had been sold by 1982, Friedman says he is an heir to the liberal tradition.


The aim of this tradition is to maximize human freedom, that is, it primarily should be seen as individual freedom, 


for a true liberal does not understand society as a community, but as a collection of independent individuals or at most individual households. 


He is not only against unnecessary government intervention but also against any form of coercion that people exert on each other. 


Hence the great significance Friedman assigns to the market. In essence, his book states that capitalist competition,


in which economic activity takes place mostly through private enterprises in a free market, is the basis for economic freedom and a necessary precondition for political freedom. 


History shows that the development of free markets and political freedoms went hand in hand, he says. 


Nevertheless, it does not follow that cooperation would be impossible. On the contrary: markets actually involve a form of voluntary cooperation.


After all, there are only two ways to coordinate the economic activities of millions of people: through command or coercion, 


as happens in the military or in a totalitarian state, or through people working together freely, as happens in a marketplace. 


The exchange of goods or services is an example of coordination without coercion. In fact, the use of government coercion becomes less necessary as the market functions better.


These ideas developed in the 1970s and 1980s. From 1945 onwards, the European states had worked hard to set up the welfare state. 


Obviously a blessing for the citizens, but the costs went up, so taxes went up. And then someone arrives who makes it plausible. 


that the government should intervene as little as possible in social processes. 


That was of course music to the ears of governments who wanted to get rid of the high costs and wanted to cut back. The Corona crisis shows where this process has led, among other things.


Thank you for your attention again....


MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995
Gabriel van den Brink:"Ruw Ontwaken uit een Neoliberale Droom",, 2020


The Discussion


[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman

[13:24] herman Bergson: In the 60s the concept of social solidarity still existed.....

[13:25] herman Bergson: at least in europe...

[13:25] herman Bergson: After Friedman everything had to become a market

[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): everything is a mistake I guess

[13:26] herman Bergson: That is where we are now..... and at the failing of htis approach

[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): even hospitals

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): everything privatized

[13:26] herman Bergson: yes Bejiita.....

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): meaning that your future depends on if your parents are rich or poor so they can send u to a finer school

[13:27] herman Bergson: so this feeling of solidarity with each other has been demolished.....now we are competitors on a free market

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): there is something we say in sweden, "to be born with a silverspoon in your mouth"

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats what this leads to

[13:27] herman Bergson: they say that in a lot of  countries Bejiita :-(

[13:28] herman Bergson: Sade has a song about that, if I remember well :-)

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aa ok

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm sade was a while since i listened to, very good soft stuff

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): might go well with my latest project

[13:29] herman Bergson: Jezebel....may be the title of the song.....

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but indeed, welfare and privatisation do not end up well

[13:30] herman Bergson: No...like here...it is all broken down or abolished...

[13:30] herman Bergson: I experienced it when I was teaching....

[13:30] herman Bergson: all of a sudden they werent talking anymore baout teaching....

[13:30] Laila Schuman: something that keeps coming up in the US discussions is that Black people do not have the means to build wealth.... they do not own homes to pass down to their children.... this keeps being said... in defense of their need for an even shake

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): there is a Christmas song i use to listen to by a Swedish comedian about a CEO living in a tax paradise while his companies customers sleeps iin their shit

[13:31] herman Bergson: they were talking about me delivering a product....my students became clients and customers

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that is indeed the sad story

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): because his customers are patiens in eldery care and similar

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and school children growing up to unemployment

[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): did you have to make profit at school Herman?

[13:32] Laila Schuman: yes...hard to get a job... education is not equally distributed...because of the money

[13:33] herman Bergson: In the municipal office you do not have a department of social wellfare. Today you have the PRODUCTGROUP social welfare....

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the CEOs cash in on peoples future

[13:33] herman Bergson: That has become the problem indeed, Bejiita

[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): in fact education has to be free for every one

[13:34] herman Bergson: Till 1975 productivity of workers and their wages kept in pace with eachother...

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and how rich u are should not determine your childrens future

[13:34] herman Bergson: after that only the company guys cashed the profits....

[13:35] herman Bergson: the worker's wages even decreased....

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): :(

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): while their CEOS claimed their bonuses

[13:35] herman Bergson: indeed

[13:35] Laila Schuman: still happening

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm :(

[13:35] herman Bergson: it does indeed Laila.....

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sure cash in but let EVERYONE cash in then!

[13:36] herman Bergson: That is why we are awakening from a neoliberal dream these days

[13:36] Laila Schuman: but what replaces it?

[13:37] herman Bergson: That is what we are trying to answer Laila....

[13:37] CB Axel: It seems to me that we need to mutually agree to what should and should not be privatized.

[13:37] herman Bergson: But it must be some more social solidarity and a redistribution of wealth

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true CB

[13:38] herman Bergson: Absolutely true CB

[13:38] CB Axel: What cannot be left in the hands of business people.

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like welfare

[13:38] CB Axel: We need armies, but do we need such big ones?

[13:38] Laila Schuman: RIGHT

[13:38] herman Bergson: We should get rid of the obsessive belief that the government should be as small as possible

[13:38] CB Axel: Yes

[13:39] CB Axel: We need to agree that things like education and health care cannot be bought and sold.

[13:39] CB Axel: Everyone needs equal access to those things.

[13:39] Laila Schuman: YES

[13:39] CB Axel: I don't mind paying taxes, but I want my money's worth.

[13:40] herman Bergson: that is to some extend achieved in Europe....

[13:40] CB Axel: I don't want it wasted on endless wars (about the only thing I agree with Trump on).

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:40] herman Bergson: What are Americans doing in Afghanistan for instance???

[13:41] herman Bergson: For more than a decade now

[13:41] CB Axel: Trying to keep Russia out, Herman. :)

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sometimes it feels like my tax money is spent on paper shoveling (the bureaucracy black hole) instead of doing actual needed work

[13:41] CB Axel: We don't want Russia to get all that mid-east oil.

[13:41] herman Bergson: That the Afghans already did themselves :-)

[13:41] Laila Schuman: minerals and other things to be dug from the ground

[13:41] CB Axel: That's a problem in business, too, Bejiita.

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I guess

[13:42] Jeremy (jeremy.querilo) is offline.

[13:42] CB Axel: With American guns, Herman.

[13:42] CB Axel: And some with Russian guns.

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but in this case it also takes 10 years of that shoveling befor anything is done

[13:42] herman Bergson: ahh....true CB :-)

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least in some cases

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): 90% of money wasted and nothing getting done

[13:43] Jeremy (jeremy.querilo) is offline.

[13:43] herman Bergson: Friedman got a Nobel prize for his ideas.....

[13:43] herman Bergson: Ideas that shaped our world of today

[13:43] Jeremy (jeremy.querilo) is online.

[13:43] herman Bergson: So let's look on what he has brought us more next Thursday...

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:44] herman Bergson: To give you one hint....

[13:44] herman Bergson: he even believed that free markets were the best solution against racism

[13:45] CB Axel: I can't wait to hear that.

[13:45] herman Bergson: Let's look into that next time:-)

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that sounds far fetched

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but

[13:45] Jeremy (jeremy.querilo): Hello.

[13:45] herman Bergson: Thank you for your participation again,,...

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well indeed lets look more into it next time

[13:45] CB Axel: Hallo, Jeremy.

[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman

[13:46] herman Bergson: Class dismissed :-))

[13:46] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.

[13:46] herman Bergson: Hello Jeremy

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hi Jeremy

[13:46] Jeremy (jeremy.querilo): Hi

[13:46] Jeremy (jeremy.querilo): Hello Herman.

[13:46] CB Axel: I'll see you all on Thursday then. Bye.

[13:46] bergfrau Apfelbaum: Thank you Herman and class!

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): je bent een uur te laat jermia



No comments:

Post a Comment