From the previous lecture, you may have concluded that the physical world has become rather uninteresting for a materialist. I mean, leave matter, the Higgs particles, the bosons, the muons, and so on to the physicists.
Since quantum mechanics, we don't know what matter is. We know it is there. We know a lot about its composing elements, but we also discovered that it behaves in strange ways.
But that is ok. The physicists are totally happy with it and work like busy bees to find out all secrets of all these particles. But there are phenomena that we say, that they are as real as a stone, but they are not material, but mental.
Here we already have to become cautious: "not material, but mental". By formulating it this way you almost suggest that there are two substances: material substances and mental substances.
But here we go too fast. In everyday language we use a distinction between material indeed, or should I say physical, and mental phenomena. The first is the material of the physicist and the latter is the material of the psychologist.
But the philosophical question: What is real and exists, of which we can explain and empirically prove its existence, isn't answered by simply pointing at the physicists and saying: just look what they are dealing with.
We have our thoughts, our feelings, our motivations, and so on. Don't tell me that my thoughts and feelings aren't real. Of course, they are real, but what the materialist philosophers wonder about is the question: in what sense are they real?
Now we see, that most philosophical work in the materialist tradition since the rise of the new physics has focused on the nature of psychological phenomena, these being the greatest challenge for materialists.
You can identify two central and different approaches to this challenge. Both have at times adopted the new name "physicalism" in place of materialism, but with radically different ideas about how the title is to be understood.
They can be initially identified as reductionist and non-reductionist approaches to psychological phenomena.
Reductionist approaches attempt to demonstrate that, appearances notwithstanding, psychological phenomena are in fact material. You only need to look at the pictures on the walls here, the brain scans and the statement: we are our brain.
Non-reductionist approaches deny the feasibility of the reductionist approach and seek to retain the spirit of materialism while acknowledging the existence of non-material psychological phenomena.
The reductionist theory is known as mind-brain identity theory or mind-body identity theory, or simply as identity theory. It seeks to say, in some way or other, the mind and the brain are the same things.
My own thesis in 1977 was on Herbert Feigl and J.J.A Smart and their identity theory. As I remember, I used a mechanical typewriter then and as a preparation for the job, I took a typing course to achieve a speed of 120 characters a minute.
The non-reductionist theory can be called supervenient physicalism. Like the identity theory, it makes some quite radical claims. In many ways, it can be seen as less like traditional materialism than identity theory, but more in tune with contemporary physics, they say.
Based on my thesis I must be an Identity theorist and I should be suspicious of SUPERVENIENT physicalism. Introducing a term like 'supervenience' makes me always somewhat more alert. What is added to reality here or did they discover something new?
That is going to be interesting: am I the philosophical dinosaur and the Supervenientists the new generation? We'll see ^_^
Thank you for your attention again....
Main Sources:
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
TABLE OF CONTENT -----------------------------------------------------------------
1 - 100 Philosophers 9 May 2009 Start of
2 - 25+ Women Philosophers 10 May 2009 this blog
3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking 10 May 2009
4 - Modern Theories of Ethics 29 Oct 2009
5 - The Ideal State 24 Febr 2010 / 234
6 - The Mystery of the Brain 3 Sept 2010 / 266
7 - The Utopia of the Free Market 16 Febr 2012 / 383
8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism 5 Sept 2012 / 413
9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist 6 Nov 2012 / 426
10 - Non-Western Philosophy 29 May 2013 / 477
11 - Why Science is Right 2 Sept 2014 / 534
12 - A Philosopher looks at Atheism 1 Jan 2015 / 557
13 - EVIL, a philosophical investigation 17 Apr 2015 / 580
14 - Existentialism and Free Will 2 Sept 2015 / 586
15 - Spinoza 2 Sept 2016 / 615
16 - The Meaning of Life 13 Febr 2017 / 637
17 - In Search of my Self 6 Sept 2017 / 670
18 - The 20th Century Revisited 3 Apr 2018 / 706
19 - The Pessimist 11 Jan 2020 / 819
20 - The Optimist 9 Febr 2020 / 824
21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream 8 Oct 2020 / 872
22 - A World Full of Patterns 1 Apr 2021 / 912
23 - The Concept of Freedom 8 Jan 2022 / 965
24 - Materialism 7 Sept 2022 / 1011
[13:21] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): over load!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ehehe
[13:21] herman Bergson: I notice that you still have to get used again to this tough material :-)
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Stackoverflow for Gemma!
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:21] herman Bergson: There....you say it Gemma
[13:21] herman Bergson: Well....let me explain.....
[13:21] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's cracking our brains
[13:22] herman Bergson: The conviction that there is only matter is the main idea of materialism......
[13:23] herman Bergson: The point is that matter is nowadays in fact no longer a philosophical issue....what does exist?
[13:23] herman Bergson: Teh physicists are dealing with it
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): CERN are dealing with that part at moment. Started LHC up today again
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): looking for more socks or something else
[13:24] herman Bergson: Democritus or Leibniz could fantasize about little particles as building blocks of matter....but they had no clue at al....Today we know really what matter is (to some extend(
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): socks exists that we know but what more
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): .)
[13:25] herman Bergson: This is the reason that materialist philosophers focus more on the issue of mental phenomena.....
[13:25] herman Bergson: Does thought exist....
[13:25] herman Bergson: of course, you would say
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well its not a material thing
[13:25] herman Bergson: but what doe EXIST mean here?
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sigh right
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): can you touch it no
[13:26] herman Bergson: if it is not a material thing and you assume that everything eventually is materail...what then Bejiita?
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): cam you touch the result of it ? yes
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sitting on one
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): id say thoughts are like the electrical impulses through my computer components, signals
[13:26] herman Bergson: Right Gemma....
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and signals exist in some form but what cause them?
[13:27] herman Bergson: But there are much more "non material" things we have words for....
[13:27] herman Bergson: take for instance "speed" or "acceleration"
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): measurable and calculable values
[13:27] herman Bergson: Of course speed exists.....but what doe this EXISTS refer to?
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm indeed
[13:28] herman Bergson: Ok...to numbers....might be a solution
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): some kind of values applied to an object
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): representing a property at the moment
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): of that object
[13:28] herman Bergson: So...the big problem here is of course the verb "to exist"
[13:29] herman Bergson: if we talk about particles...ok...we go to CERN and make Bejiita happy :-))
[13:29] herman Bergson: But if it is about metal phenomena....?
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:30] herman Bergson: Ok...we have brain scans...we see brain activity etc.......
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:30] herman Bergson: is that how thoughts exist?
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): for many things
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes u can see that, the signals
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but in what form
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): wasnt it something called FMRI that could visualize such things
[13:31] herman Bergson: One problem is that what we see is correlations.....if the content of the thought is X, brainpart Y lights up
[13:32] herman Bergson: Let's not dig in too deep now.....we are heading for a super complex philosophical problem.....
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ohoh
[13:32] herman Bergson: In preparation of the next lecture I have of course my literature.....
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): today was not hard enough
[13:33] herman Bergson: but I also consulted ChatGPT today and asked some tough questions....
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehehe
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[13:33] herman Bergson smiles
[13:33] herman Bergson: Was it too difficult Gemma ? :-)
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): some of the end yes
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): new concepts to figure out
[13:34] herman Bergson: Yes that is right.....
[13:35] herman Bergson: But that end part... Identity theory and Supervenience will be our topics to dig in in coming lectures
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): swell
[13:35] herman Bergson: But wht I wanted to tell you....
[13:35] herman Bergson: The answers of ChatGPT were astonishing......
[13:35] herman Bergson: and very helpful
[13:35] herman Bergson: amazing
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oki
[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): can you trust those answers?
[13:36] theo Velde is offline.
[13:36] herman Bergson: Just ask ChatGPT.... What means supervenience in philosophy....
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I thinnk so beertje
[13:36] herman Bergson: I assume that you get a good answer
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it is extremely organize
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): you will hve to copy them Herman
[13:37] herman Bergson: Yes you can Beertje...that is..in this case
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I would not put in my number
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so cannot get in
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): It can write working code even, I tried creating scripts for both unity and Unreal with it before and they worked, the only thing is they can be a bit generic
[13:37] herman Bergson: Ahh...well, I am in :-)
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so copy
[13:38] herman Bergson: I copy the answers into text files
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): good'
[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ok
[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yay
[13:38] herman Bergson: But regarding trusting the answers.....
[13:38] herman Bergson: That is of course an issue
[13:39] herman Bergson: If you have no knowledge of the subject you are asking questions about...that might be a problem
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah, well u can get it to missbehave indeed and put put fake data
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): u should not blindly trust it
[13:40] herman Bergson: But in fact it is like every book you read......do you trust the authority of the writer?
[13:40] herman Bergson: Indeed Bejiita
[13:40] herman Bergson: But this is a fundamental issue of life.....
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like with programming, if u use that code like a script kiddie (someone just copy pasting code with no knowledge at all about how it actually works) u can end up with nasty hard to fix bugs
[13:41] herman Bergson: I only believe it, when I have seen it....could be your leading principle
[13:41] herman Bergson: But....just ask yourself.....
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): who ever created the chat bots did a great job of collecting data to back up and answer almost anything
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:42] herman Bergson: of all things you claim to KNOW....how much is based on having seen it first and how much is based on the fact that you trusted the source?
[13:43] herman Bergson: I say Youtube clips about adding a little vinegar to your bread dough....
[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): good question
[13:43] herman Bergson: Interesting...:-)
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): u have to verify
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): somehow
[13:43] herman Bergson: So I asked ChatGPT what the effect could be......
[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): sour bread:
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Bread explodes KABOOOOM!
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): looool
[13:44] herman Bergson: It gave a 100% perfect answer....confirmed everything I had seen on Youtube
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I ber
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bet
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well i guess it can pull stuff from there too
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): from all sources
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): try
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ChatGPT was trained with all avaible data on internet as i get it
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I have to poof
[13:45] herman Bergson: You have to stay alert and critical....but then this chatbot is agoldmine
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) is offline.
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): billions of GB of training data
[13:45] herman Bergson: So....Get ready for the lectures to come :-)))
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok ㋡
[13:46] herman Bergson: thank you all again...see you on Thursday...
[13:46] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thnak you Herman
[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank
[13:46] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you! Herman and class
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nice and exciting
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