Tuesday, October 29, 2024

1147: Finding the Truth...

 If there is one thing that people are looking for, it is perhaps the truth. There is no greater meaning to life than finding the truth.


Finding the truth is a meaningful practice for many people, but it is less clear-cut than is generally assumed. Firstly, there are statements whose truth cannot be established. 

  

We can provide arguments for normative statements such as 'incomes should be taxed equally', but we cannot test this statement for truth content because it is a moral statement. 

  

This is different if we make a statement such as 'incomes are taxed equally'. We can test this, and it turns out that it is not generally true, because in a country like the Netherlands, there is a progressive tax system in which not all incomes are taxed equally. 

  

So this is already the first bump in the road: normative statements, statements in which a moral value is expressed: "You ought to help people in need".

   

Is that universally true? Does it have a truth value? What, when the person in need is a murderer and after recovering due to your help, he'll definitely kill you?

  

This leaves us with interesting and serious philosophical questions: if we can not ascribe a truth-value to normative statements, how should we deal with them then? Isn't there a moral truth?

  

We will not discuss this matter today, for it is a furtile source of a whole new project, but it is worth to keep this isuue in mind.


The example of taxation concerns the truth of a specific case or process. What about the truth of statements that generalise about multiple situations or about all possible situations? 

    

Take the historical law that all states exhibit a pattern of rise, bloom, and decline, as described by the historian Herodotus of Halicarnassus (c. 485-c. 425 BCE). 

   

Or take the law discovered by Galileo Galilei (1564-1642) that the distance traveled by all freely falling objects is proportional to the square of the elapsed time. 

   

Both Herodotus and Galileo believed they had discovered universal truths. But the laws they discovered are only true for the cases for which they have been observed; we cannot prove their general truth because we cannot test all cases in the past and future. 

  

Empirical generalizations that have been proven many times, such as those of Herodotus and Galileo, can only be accepted as 'true' as long as there are no counterexamples.

  

This problem was addresses in the philosophy of scientific method by Karl Popper (1902 -1994). His theory suggested that scientists should first come up with theories as empirically falsifiable guesses, then subject such theories to satisfactory empirical refutation.

   

Are all swans white? Probably, would Popper say. I haven't seen them all. That is almost impossible. So, spend your time on finding a black swan. That makes sense as a method to establish the truth value of the statement "All swans are white". Until then it is only probably true.

   

Another method of finding the truth is what historians and philologists (linguists) do: source research. They try to find out which account of an event comes closest in time to the actual event.


Event X happened in 50 A.D. Writer A tells about it in 1000 A.D. Then it turns out that writer B already told the same story in 70 A.D. You compare both stories and look for the differences. In this way, you can get a little closer to the "true" story.


Falsification, source research, and fact-checking (perhaps the only waterproof method) are all methods of finding the truth.


But we will have to face the fact that even the most self-evident truths, which have already been tested and substantiated many times, can and will be questioned again and again. 

  

As a meaningful activity, the pursuit of truth therefore can form a lifelong goal and answer to the question: Why am I here?.

   

Thank you for your attention again....

    

Main Sources:

MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995
 http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.htm
Rens Bod:  Waarom ben ik hier? (2024)


TABLE OF CONTENT -----------------------------------------------------------------  


  1 - 100 Philosophers                                              9 May 2009  Start of

  2 - 25+ Women Philosophers                              10 May 2009  this blog

  3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking                               10 May 2009

  4 - Modern Theories of Ethics                              29 Oct  2009

  5 - The Ideal State                                               24 Febr 2010   /   234

  6 - The Mystery of the Brain                                  3 Sept 2010   /   266

  7 - The Utopia of the Free Market                       16 Febr 2012    /   383

  8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism                      5 Sept 2012   /   413

  9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist                             6 Nov  2012   /   426                        

10  - Non-Western Philosophy                               29 May 2013    /   477

11  -  Why Science is Right                                      2 Sept 2014   /   534      

12  - A Philosopher looks at Atheism                        1 Jan  2015   /   557

13  - EVIL, a philosophical investigation                 17 Apr  2015   /   580                

14  - Existentialism and Free Will                             2 Sept 2015   /   586         

15 - Spinoza                                                             2 Sept 2016   /   615

16 - The Meaning of Life                                        13 Febr 2017   /   637

17 - In Search of  my Self                                        6 Sept 2017   /   670

18 - The 20th Century Revisited                              3 Apr  2018    /   706

19 - The Pessimist                                                  11 Jan 2020    /   819

20 - The Optimist                                                     9 Febr 2020   /   824

21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream                8 Oct  2020   /   872

22 - A World Full of Patterns                                    1 Apr 2021    /   912

23 - The Concept of Freedom                                  8 Jan 2022    /   965

24 - Materialism                                                      7 Sept 2022   /  1011

25 - Historical Materialism                                       5 Oct 2023    /  1088

26 - The Bonobo and the Atheist                             9 Jan 2024    /  1102

27 - Artificial Intelligence                                          9 Feb 2024    /  1108

28 - Why Am I Here                                                 6 Sept 2024   /  1139

 

The Discussion

[13:20] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman

[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:20] Daruma Boa: Yse - thanks Herman

[13:20] Dings (dings.digital): Thank you

[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): intreresting for ure

[13:20] herman Bergson: The floor is yours...:-)

[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:21] Sookie Hart (sookicatalina): It seems that "Truth" is almost always subjective, except for the two cases of science and history that you just mentioned.

[13:21] Max Chatnoir: Good point about historical truths.  There IS an actual time of occurrence, but how is it detected?

[13:21] Daruma Boa: Well, I have seen already 2 or 3 black swans here in the Netherlands.

[13:22] herman Bergson: That is always the question...absolute relativism or not....

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:22] herman Bergson: Yes, they exist, Daruma :-))

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes I've also seen one

[13:22] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes there are black swans here in the Netherlands

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but they are indeed not common

[13:22] Daruma Boa: They do. And I love them!

[13:22] Dings (dings.digital): I am dogmatic about relativism :)

[13:22] herman Bergson: What does that mean Dings?

[13:23] Max Chatnoir: Cultural truth, now.  Difficult!

[13:23] Dings (dings.digital): that's supposed to be a fun contradiction. is the relaltivist relativistic about relativism?

[13:23] Sookie Hart (sookicatalina): Yes Max, and moral truth, spiritual truth....there will never be a universal consensus on these.

[13:24] herman Bergson: Ahhh that one....yes...Dings

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true or false are rarely total in real life but only until otherwise proven

[13:24] herman Bergson: Absolute truth is that all truth is relative

[13:24] Dings (dings.digital): :)

[13:25] herman Bergson: Maybe here we again are dealing with a family word....

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it's not like when as just now before I was working in Unreal 5 and set up boolean variables, in programming they are 100 % true and false but in reality

[13:25] herman Bergson: I mean...like the meaning of life...

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): there it might be a different story for sure

[13:25] Max Chatnoir: Maybe.  How many planets are there, depends on what you call a planet.

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): story

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): exactly

[13:25] herman Bergson: we have one word and are inclined to relate it to only ONE reference....

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Like Pluto was pulled off the planet list

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so now there are only 8 planets on the solar system, not 9

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i say it's still 9 though

[13:26] Daruma Boa: Good bejita. I also count like this

[13:26] herman Bergson: Yes one option....truth established by definitions....axiomatic approach...

[13:26] Max Chatnoir: But Pluto's orbit is also pretty different.

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:27] herman Bergson: but truth is a word that refers to many references...like  the word GAME refers to many different things that we call a game

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed many types of games exist, not only computer games

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): u can play a game with someone

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the term is wide

[13:28] herman Bergson: or Solitaire  or in a group

[13:28] Sookie Hart (sookicatalina): Herman, what I think of is the word "Truth" implying "fact." But they are not necessarily the same thing.

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but in general it is regarded as something playful

[13:28] Max Chatnoir: Say some more, Sookie.

[13:29] herman Bergson: Truth is a quality of a statement....

[13:29] herman Bergson: a fact is a state of affairs that corroberates the meaning of the true statement

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but for example u can hear the expression stop playing games with me!, then the term game has changed slightly

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): game  = playing around in a bad way with someone

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like that

[13:29] herman Bergson: Game over, Bejiita....there is the door :-))))))

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok i ll stop play games with u

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:30] herman Bergson: :-)

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:30] Sookie Hart (sookicatalina): A fact is an empirical, objective truth. But most other things we think of as "true" cannot be proven or disproven as a fact.

[13:30] herman Bergson: So we don't need to end up in absoluter relativism....

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:31] herman Bergson: You even could go a step further....

[13:31] Dings (dings.digital): "it is true that you are just playing love games" Discuss :)))

[13:31] herman Bergson: truth is related to values we hold....

[13:31] herman Bergson: Just comes to my mind....

[13:31] herman Bergson: Our values precede truth

[13:32] herman Bergson: for instance....

[13:32] Max Chatnoir: But think about Pluto and planetness.  Isn't that also language-dependent, and therefore socially dependent?   You can ask, which bodies meet the definition we like for planetness.

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): u can say referring to another programming term that truth is only absolute in its own scope, like moral truth named before

[13:32] herman Bergson: in science, we want "absolute "truth....

[13:32] Stranger Nightfire: I have pretty much come to the conclusion That 100% Truth Is not even a thing --At least not for mere mortals living in this veil of tears

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:32] Max Chatnoir: Or you can say "what time did you get up on Tuesday"

[13:33] Stranger Nightfire: Maybe sometimes 99.9999 Or some such

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess so

[13:33] Max Chatnoir: So maybe to some extent, all truths are cultural agreements.

[13:33] herman Bergson: In fact, it looks like truth is a value

[13:33] Sookie Hart (sookicatalina): Herman referred to truth being related to our values. I like the idea that there are universal human values, but I don't think that's true.

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): many are indeed

[13:34] herman Bergson: if a person lies, we call him immoral

[13:34] Dings (dings.digital): flat earth

[13:34] Sookie Hart (sookicatalina): Like Max said, it's all cultural perspective.

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa

[13:34] herman Bergson: Well Sooki, to answer that question I would turn to biology

[13:35] Max Chatnoir: In some cases, there may be more agreement than in others.

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cultural scoped

[13:35] herman Bergson: We are just animals among the other animals, primates

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:35] Max Chatnoir: There is physical reality, but it's a little time-dependent.

[13:36] Max Chatnoir: For example, What is a giraffe will vary over time.

[13:36] herman Bergson: The difference between us and other primates is that we create a culture...

[13:36] Daruma Boa: Yes with our thoughts and actions

[13:36] herman Bergson: Makes our lives way more difficult than that of bonobos for instance :-)

[13:36] Sookie Hart (sookicatalina): And that culture informs our opinions on what truth is.

[13:37] Max Chatnoir: I frequently wonder what we would be like if we had split from the bonobos after they split from the chimps.

[13:37] herman Bergson: To some extend, yes, Sooki

[13:37] Stranger Nightfire: “Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real. If quantum mechanics hasn't profoundly shocked you, you haven't understood it yet.”- Niels Bohr

[13:37] herman Bergson: many would love the bonobo way of conflict and problem solving, Max :-)

[13:38] herman Bergson: Thank you for the info, Stranger...I haven't been shocked yet ....so....:-)))

[13:39] herman Bergson: My name is not Niels Bohr :-)

[13:39] Sookie Hart (sookicatalina): Oh no....not only is there no "truth" but there also isn't "reality"? Being human is so difficult :)

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe well

[13:39] Dings (dings.digital): what would Socrates say?

[13:39] Max Chatnoir: But there has to be some degree of agreement or we can't socially function.

[13:40] herman Bergson: Another project idea..."What is Reality?"

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa!

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed!

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): good idea

[13:40] herman Bergson: That agrement is there is science  for instance...

[13:40] Stranger Nightfire: What we call reality is in fact nothing more than a culturally sanctioned and linguistically reinforced hallucination. - Terence McKenna

[13:40] Daruma Boa: Yes interesting

[13:40] Sookie Hart (sookicatalina): I think that's the key Max, coming up with values we can all agree on.....or maybe that the majority of us agree on.

[13:41] Daruma Boa: I am sorry, but I have to leave. Hope to see u all soon again!

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): bye then Daruma

[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye Daruma

[13:41] herman Bergson: Nice to see you again Daruma :-)

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu

[13:41] Max Chatnoir: Bye, Daruma.  See you soon.

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:41] Daruma BoaDaruma Boa waves

[13:41] Dings (dings.digital): bye Daruma

[13:42] bergfrau Apfelbaum: byebye Daruma:-)

[13:42] herman Bergson: We live in a world full of agreements and disagreements....at least that is a fact

[13:42] Max Chatnoir: We need a really tough philosopher to sort out US political reality.

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed Max

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): wel

[13:43] herman Bergson: Don't look at me......:-)

[13:43] Max Chatnoir: What, you don't want a new project?

[13:43] herman Bergson: :-)))

[13:44] herman Bergson: This one isn't finished yet

[13:44] Max Chatnoir: True, one thing at a time.

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:44] herman Bergson: besides that, I see it more as a psychological and cultural problem, Max

[13:45] Stranger Nightfire: contemplating what the term political reality would even mean

[13:45] herman Bergson: For instance the phenomenon that 52% of American men don't vote for whatever woman...

[13:46] herman Bergson: political reality  = the social interaction between groups and individuals to safeguard their interests

[13:47] herman Bergson: well,  my definition atm :-)

[13:47] Max Chatnoir: Good start!

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:47] herman Bergson: Politics is a process of conflicts of interests

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:48] herman Bergson: and the interaction is a means to find a compromise or common denominator

[13:48] herman Bergson: and in that context, we run into VALUES again, that people hold

[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hahaha

[13:49] herman Bergson: oh dear...Bergie

[13:49] bergfrau Apfelbaum: lol

[13:49] Max Chatnoir: But if we are about equally divided about which political candidate is more likely to destroy the country, how do we do that?  Assuming that the opinions of each faction are sincere.

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:49] herman Bergson: And THAT is the problem Max....

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:50] herman Bergson: Disinformation is here the key

[13:50] Max Chatnoir: The best that we can hope for is that we're all wrong.

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i know the TRUTH

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and hopefully all others in here too

[13:50] Sookie Hart (sookicatalina): Each side has their "truths" that they firmly believe

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed, like what i said about scope

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): very limited scope i say here

[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): but what lies beyond the truth?

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or idk how to describe it

[13:51] herman Bergson: But you also need sincere arguments for the values and truth you hold, Sooki.

[13:51] herman Bergson: That is....this is again a moral claim I make...

[13:52] herman Bergson: and others can deny even that claim

[13:52] herman Bergson: and say...This is just how I think...period

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aha

[13:52] Max Chatnoir: Yes, sincerity is an important element.  It is hard for me to believe that "they" actually believe "that" when it is so manifestly obvious to me that "that " is nonsense!

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true max

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): our scope and their scope is different

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): what is true and false

[13:53] herman Bergson: It is a fact that T produced at least 30.000 lies during his presidency....or half-truths...all fact checked...

[13:54] Max Chatnoir: Yes, that is a good point, Herman.  It's not all opinion.

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): for them it is not true

[13:54] herman Bergson: So, the man is a pathological liar...

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well i can try to explain this thing another time more clearly

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): about scoping and truth ect

[13:54] herman Bergson: or he is cunning in manipulating his audience to promote his personal interests

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it is an analogy i make

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Exactly

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): he brainwashes them

[13:55] Max Chatnoir: I just don't want to find out that I'm right by having to live in a terrible social environment.

[13:55] herman Bergson: I understand, Max

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah yes

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:57] Max Chatnoir: I really like this class!

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:57] bergfrau Apfelbaum: yay

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (hugs Max)

[13:57] herman Bergson: Well....at least the truth is, that our time is up again :-))

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa time flies, but was good

[13:57] herman Bergson: So I wish you all a nice weekend....

[13:57] herman Bergson: Thank you all again....

[13:57] herman Bergson: Class dismissed.....

[13:57] Sookie Hart (sookicatalina): 'Bye all.

[13:58] Max Chatnoir: See you all Tuesday!  Thanks, Herman and the rest of you!

[13:58] bergfrau Apfelbaum: in SL is the truth, just a hair salon

[13:58] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman, take care class

[13:58] bergfrau Apfelbaum: :-))

[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:58] bergfrau Apfelbaum: happy weekend Max:-)


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