Karl Marx's analysis of private property is central to his critique of capitalism.
He argued that under capitalism, private property is not simply about owning personal possessions but represents a specific social relationship
where the few, the capitalists, own the means of production and exploit the many, the workers.
This system, he claimed, leads to alienation, where workers are disconnected from their labor, its products, and their own humanity.
Marx distinguished between exploitative capitalist private property and the concept of individual property based on one's own labor.
His ultimate vision was not a society without personal possessions, but the establishment of a new form of "individual property" founded on socialized production and cooperative ownership.
There is nothing wrong with this reasoning, but the weakness of it is the classical inclination of our brain to think in binary.
Just think of all those workers as managers, small business owners, gig workers, the professional-managerial class, doctors or dentists, etc.
Like, the light is on or off, it is white or black, and with Marx, he divides society in capitalists and workers.
As such, this is correct, but referring to questions of Max in our previous debate, for instance, what to do with the 50 shades of grey between workers and capitalists?
Nevertheless, Marx believed private property was not a natural or eternal fact but a historical outcome. He was right about that.
Marx distinguished between two historical forms of private property: individual private property and capitalist private property.
Human beings fulfill their nature by creatively shaping the natural world through their own labor. The result is their private property.
That is what John Locke said. However, Marx explicitly rejected the idea that labor naturally yields private property.
For Marx, labor in capitalism produces alienated property for the capitalist, not property for the worker.
Capitalist private property works like this: They pay workers a wage that covers their subsistence, but the value the workers create through their labor is greater than their wage.
This "surplus value" is appropriated by the capitalist as profit. Marx argued that this fundamentally unjust process is hidden behind the appearance of a fair exchange.
Marx was right about the exploitation of workers, and he still is, but dividing society into capitalists and workers only overlooks a lot of our culture.
Marxism didn't win and has not become the dominant global economic system, but this doesn't mean that his ideas still have a serious influence.
Marx's categories remain analytically powerful even if his binary division requires nuance.
His influence persists precisely because the questions he raised, exploitation, alienation, and the social nature of property, have not disappeared.
Main Sources:
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
of Economic Thought (2012)
TABLE OF CONTENT -----------------------------------------------------------------
1 - 100 Philosophers 9 May 2009 Start of
2 - 25+ Women Philosophers 10 May 2009 this blog
3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking 10 May 2009
4 - Modern Theories of Ethics 29 Oct 2009
5 - The Ideal State 24 Febr 2010 / 234
6 - The Mystery of the Brain 3 Sept 2010 / 266
7 - The Utopia of the Free Market 16 Febr 2012 / 383
8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism 5 Sept 2012 / 413
9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist 6 Nov 2012 / 426
10 - Non-Western Philosophy 29 May 2013 / 477
11 - Why Science is Right 2 Sept 2014 / 534
12 - A Philosopher looks at Atheism 1 Jan 2015 / 557
13 - EVIL, a philosophical investigation 17 Apr 2015 / 580
14 - Existentialism and Free Will 2 Sept 2015 / 586
15 - Spinoza 2 Sept 2016 / 615
16 - The Meaning of Life 13 Febr 2017 / 637
17 - In Search of my Self 6 Sept 2017 / 670
18 - The 20th Century Revisited 3 Apr 2018 / 706
19 - The Pessimist 11 Jan 2020 / 819
20 - The Optimist 9 Febr 2020 / 824
21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream 8 Oct 2020 / 872
22 - A World Full of Patterns 1 Apr 2021 / 912
23 - The Concept of Freedom 8 Jan 2022 / 965
24 - Materialism 7 Sept 2022 / 1011
25 - Historical Materialism 5 Oct 2023 / 1088
26 - The Bonobo and the Atheist 9 Jan 2024 / 1102
27 - Artificial Intelligence 9 Feb 2024 / 1108
28 - Why Am I Here 6 Sept 2024 / 1139
The Discussion
[14:15] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman
[14:15] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): May I start?
[14:16] herman Bergson: Sure :-)
[14:16] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): Marxism has shaped society more than we think. Half of the world used to be socialist regimes up to 35 years ago. and the rest had to compete with them
[14:17] herman Bergson: True..
[14:17] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): since that kind of world order ended, the socialism we had embedded in capitalist society has been retreating and regressing
[14:17] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): The result is what you are seeing now
[14:17] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): we are going back to the situation of the society when Marx was alive
[14:17] herman Bergson: That started in the 1980s with Reagan and Thatcher
[14:18] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): that is different from today. Very few shades of gray back then
[14:18] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): now Marx said one thing that we are seeing today
[14:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[14:18] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): he said "capitalism has in itself the seeds of its own sefdistruction"
[14:19] herman Bergson: yes
[14:19] Max Chatnoir: But what will replace it?
[14:19] herman Bergson: To me...the current system is a kind of meaningless...it is only about money and profits...not about us, human beings.
[14:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true
[14:20] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): A new cycle, Max
[14:20] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): history proceeds in circles, loops
[14:21] herman Bergson: What is the next cycle, John?
[14:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we clearly see this in IS now with the billionaires cutting heathcare ect because they just want us to ie, we are just in the way to them and their mone,y they think
[14:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): die
[14:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least it feels like that
[14:22] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): now, it's the cuts that make the billionaires, more than the other way round
[14:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): when your human value is determined by your wallet size
[14:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): then something is very wrong
[14:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): then
[14:22] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): it's always been like that
[14:23] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): humans used to sell humans
[14:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well i guess thats true
[14:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): all way back to the feodal era
[14:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[14:23] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): the biggest civilizations relied on slavery
[14:24] herman Bergson: That is how Europe started, indeed
[14:24] Max Chatnoir: And they resent having to pay for work?
[14:24] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): Ancient Greece
[14:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its a big piece of it for sure
[14:24] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): and before
[14:24] Max Chatnoir: Certainly a factor in the civil war in the US.
[14:25] herman Bergson: Sonow we are the slaves of the big multinationals?
[14:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): even one thing i do on my free time now was created from slavery - Capoeira
[14:25] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_materialism
[14:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): one thing I have thought about is what the world would look like now if slavery had never been
[14:27] Max Chatnoir: The factories and farmers would have had to pay their workers a fair wage?
[14:27] herman Bergson: I don't even understand slavery. Why didn't these slaves revolt...(some did indeed in ancient Rome)
[14:28] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): slavery may be declared or effectual
[14:29] Max Chatnoir: What would the slaves have done after that?
[14:29] herman Bergson: If I had a slave in my house I would be scared...wouldnt trust him/her for a secod...
[14:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): because they wanted to be free. As in my example. Capoeira was created as a way to mask a martial art/break free tactic as a dance
[14:29] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): in Marx's time the UK had no slaves officially, but the lower classes were treated as such
[14:30] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): they were free to work for little money or starve
[14:30] herman Bergson: yes, indeed
[14:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[14:30] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): same as today we have chidlren and teens working for us in sweatshops in the far east
[14:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm while we shop on Temu
[14:31] herman Bergson: So, Marx's view on society is historically determined... wonder how he would look at our society of today
[14:31] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): yes, and even when we buy in a shop in the high street
[14:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): fast fashion
[14:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): among other things
[14:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): buy and throw away, buy and throw away
[14:32] herman Bergson: We still have slavery in some countries
[14:32] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): exactly
[14:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[14:33] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): basically, workers in his times didn't get much money to buy the same products they had to buy
[14:33] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): in the US henry Ford founded what we today call consumerism
[14:33] herman Bergson: In that sense Marx was right by pointing out the relation between the HAVES and HAVENOTS
[14:34] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): Ford made cheap cars and paid his workers enough that they could afford them. So they became his first customers
[14:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aah
[14:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[14:34] herman Bergson: Ford was the summum of alienation due to the conveyor belt production of cars
[14:35] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): yes
[14:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): each worker just a small insignificant piece in the process
[14:35] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): but his innovations made America great, probably
[14:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): not like how i said before I run every step in the production WITHIN my current project
[14:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[14:36] herman Bergson: Mass production and consumerism have become the core of our society today
[14:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): for sure it has
[14:37] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): Ford could have paid his workers less, as they were not specialized, but he paid them more, so they could afford a car
[14:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true
[14:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well that in itself is a good thing right?
[14:37] Max Chatnoir: So is that a good model?
[14:37] herman Bergson: Smart fellow, this ~Ford :-)
[14:37] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): In order to thrive, we need to buy and throw away
[14:38] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): now an event where stuff is thrown away and destroyed is a war
[14:38] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): Humans are like sisiphus
[14:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaah i guess
[14:39] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): every problem we solve, we create 10 more
[14:39] Max Chatnoir: Why do we need to throw away?
[14:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so that the factories can continue make profit
[14:39] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): to make room for more products
[14:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): in selling more and more
[14:39] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): and create jobs
[14:40] herman Bergson: But the quintessence of Mark's ideas..the social relation workers vs. capitalist is still a real fact today.
[14:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): still i want things that last, not low quality crap
[14:40] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): so workers have money to spend, etc. etc.
[14:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): esp with things i use all time like computers
[14:40] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): sure, you buy a tube tv that lasts, and then you throw it away for a flat screen tv
[14:41] herman Bergson: we still have a small rich class that controls the world
[14:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true
[14:42] Max Chatnoir: My current computer seems to be wearing out....
[14:42] Max Chatnoir: It's only about 6 years old.
[14:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well I say its a balance act, you want to support companies making good stuff but at the same time you also want that stuff to last and be of good quality
[14:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and also to not be wasteful
[14:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we have one good example here of wich we have one at my work. The swedich company Arboga Machine Tools mae their machines maybee a bit too good and that in the end made them do out of business, because their machines lasted forever
[14:44] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): you need to erase your hd and install windows again Max
[14:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and sure im happy that our drill press just run and run
[14:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but yes its a balance act
[14:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and also my refrigeratir where i keep all my food i also want to last
[14:45] bergfrau Apfelbaum: i had to buy a new phone because updates for mine will soon stop. It was still perfectly fine and only eleven years old....
[14:45] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): I have to go friends. Ty all, Ty Bergman
[14:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aa
[14:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok John
[14:45] herman Bergson: Ok...so much about Marx and his ideas on private property...
[14:45] Max Chatnoir: Unfortunately, I'm between Windows 10 and 11. Can't install either of them.
[14:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[14:46] herman Bergson: is maon point was that the means of production shouldn't be private property but collectively owned
[14:47] Max Chatnoir: How does collective ownership happen when you have a huge income gap?
[14:47] herman Bergson: We'll see what has remained of Marx's ideas on economics and society
[14:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aha
[14:48] Max Chatnoir: Hi, Stranger.
[14:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I have to go, i tired I need to go to sleep
[14:48] herman Bergson: Collective ownership should mean that the surplus value created by the workers is given to the workers
[14:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oki Beertje
[14:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): agree herman
[14:48] herman Bergson: Sweet dreams Beerje
[14:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): see you all soon:)
[14:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[14:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): houdoe
[14:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (hugs Beertje)
[14:49] bergfrau Apfelbaum: good night Beertje
[14:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[14:49] bergfrau Apfelbaum: yay
[14:49] herman Bergson: Well, guess you all need to go to bed... :-)
[14:49] herman Bergson: So...thank you all again for your participation....
[14:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nice again
[14:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[14:50] herman Bergson: Class dismissed.. :-)
[14:50] Max Chatnoir: Thank you, Herman!
No comments:
Post a Comment