Thursday, February 9, 2017

644: What to do with 3180 gods...?

There has emerged a new way of understanding what is true. If I am not mistaken, it is a contribution to this world by Donald Trump.
From now on we have facts. When you talk about facts I assume you mean state of affairs which are true.
But from now on we also have ALTERNATIVE FACTS. So on the one hand you have true statements
and on the other hand you have alternative facts, alternative statements, which claim to be true too.
In this context we have the naturalist view on the meaning of life and on the other hand the alternative facts of creationism.
As you may recall: creationism is the theory, that the meaning of life can be deduced  from the fact, that we are the product of an intelligent design.
Throughout most of the human history most people have  not accepted the naturalistic conception, that the universe is the product of blind, purposeless forces.
That is still true today. People think that the universe must have some sort of creator, commonly referred to as God.
If so many  people believe this,  aren’t you inclined to assume that there must be some grain of truth in it, isn’t it?
But now we have to face the first problem. Here I have a list of 3180 gods in which people have believed
and who have been held responsible for this creation one way or the other.
The second problem is, that a believer claims that his god is the only true one there is. But how do you pick the real and true god from a list of 3180 gods?
I would be happy to learn what criteria make someone’s choice of a god from the list the true and only one.
Then we have a third problem. I do not know which ones, but I reckon that a lot of the listed gods are completely forgotten.
One I know of is Zeus or Apollo, for instance. You might object by saying. He is not forgotten, you talk about him now!
True, but only because I know the name, the history and old Greek mythology, as we call it now. But as a god Zeus has lost his job.
Now take this fourth problem: suppose that among those forgotten gods in fact the true and only is,
that people have been to stupid or lazy to see this. How can we ever know?
Let’s compromise: forget about a particular god. Just stick to the fact that one way or another man has been convinced about a something.
You could claim, that throughout history man has recognised that existence finds its origin in some creational act of some force or being.
And this creational act has created some order and design in the world we live in and in ourselves.
Let’s assume that all religious and ritual things are only a metaphoric way of man to express his understanding of this design aspect of reality.
Thus we may conclude, that the idea that there must be some cosmic designer sometimes is justified with intricate arguments, 
but perhaps more often based on a kind of 
basic instinct, the strong compulsive feeling, that the universe not only can be a blunt fact.
Let’s take this basic instinct serious and put it under the magnifying glass to investigate  it in a next lecture.
Thank you for your attention… ^_^


[13:21] Daruma Boa (daruma): Thats the base of the human race  this "basic instinct"
[13:21] herman Bergson: What do you mean  Daruma?
[13:21] Daruma Boa (daruma): or also called "gut feeling"
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I have never heard of most of these gods at that list even
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i recognize some of the Indian ones but that there have been so many
[13:22] CB Axel: Where did you get that list?
[13:22] herman Bergson: Neither have I Bejiita
[13:22] herman Bergson: I forgot CB
[13:22] herman Bergson: Found it on some site when I did research for my Atheism project
[13:22] Daruma Boa (daruma): every nation has its own gods. Its an expression of a nation. and so different from country to country.
[13:23] herman Bergson: But I check randomly some weird names and they were gods indeed
[13:23] CB Axel: That's true, Daruma.
[13:23] herman Bergson: would you call it nationalism Daruma?
[13:23] CB Axel: Some of those gods may be just a different name for the same god.
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Kronos i know about, the god of time, from where we get chronograph = clock
[13:24] Daruma Boa (daruma): no.its and idea of your world which you learned from your parents
[13:24] herman Bergson: Could be, CB
[13:24] Daruma Boa (daruma): or from your world around you
[13:24] Daruma Boa (daruma): a so called mind set
[13:24] herman Bergson: But even when the list had only ten different names we still had the same problems to deal with
[13:24] Daruma Boa (daruma): yes. people don’t want to learn new things
[13:24] CB Axel: True.
[13:25] Daruma Boa (daruma): or, have problems to accept other things
[13:25] Daruma Boa (daruma): which are outside their "own" world
[13:25] herman Bergson: If that were true Daruma there would be no science
[13:25] Daruma Boa (daruma): i peak for the "normal" folks;-)
[13:25] herman Bergson: maybe your statement is an over-generalization?
[13:26] herman Bergson: as a philosopher I do not know what "normal' folks are
[13:26] Daruma Boa (daruma): there are alwys people who want to know more. but most like tostay in their vilage
[13:26] CB Axel: If people are afraid of things outside their own world, why would they believe in an otherworldly god?
[13:26] Daruma Boa (daruma): the average people like to stay in their comfort zone
[13:27] Daruma Boa (daruma): taking no risk
[13:27] herman Bergson: I really wonder Daruma....
[13:27] CB Axel: Some unknown and unknowable god sounds more frightening to me than believe that we just are here without outside influence beyond nature.
[13:27] herman Bergson: Just look at the demonstrations in Rumania at the moment.....
[13:28] Daruma Boa (daruma): yes,it neds a lot of pressure to cot of this zone
[13:28] Daruma Boa (daruma): to come
[13:28] herman Bergson: That   sounds paradoxical CB...
[13:28] herman Bergson: How can you know an unknown god...even worse an unknowable  god?
[13:29] Daruma Boa (daruma): whe we humans get enough pressure we try to find a way out
[13:29] CB Axel: Gods are unknowable because we can never fully understand them.
[13:29] CB Axel: Unknown because we don't know them. We never meet them.
[13:29] herman Bergson: That you can only say when you understand a god....
[13:30] Daruma Boa (daruma): but, don’t we give all of these gods a meaning by ourselves?
[13:30] Daruma Boa (daruma): so why should we do not understand tem?
[13:30] Daruma Boa (daruma): them
[13:30] CB Axel: Of course we give them a meaning, because they are all made up by us.
[13:30] herman Bergson: Well...I should meet the god himself able to communicate with it/him/her
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:31] herman Bergson: face to face I mean...:-))
[13:31] CB Axel: I don't know, Daruma. I just vaguely remember hearing of an unknowable god from some prayer or other.
[13:31] Daruma Boa (daruma): this is only possible on different levels.E.g. meditation about this special god
[13:31] herman Bergson: I want him here in the classroom....shake hands and say..nice to meet you
[13:32] herman Bergson: not as a phenomenon in my mind
[13:32] oola Neruda: have you ever sat and watched the sun set over the ocean or behind a mountain... and  been in total awe... experienced a deathbed... or a field of crops coming up... or a thousand geese descending upon it..... or a child who is ill and you cannot help that child..... the mysteries.... are enough to make you wonder... and reach for some...."answer".... you recognize patterns... so that "answer" must have purpose or order or something bigger than you are
[13:32] Daruma Boa (daruma): thats not so easy herman;-))
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): when i see a god i believe but otherwise not
[13:32] herman Bergson: for then it still is only in my head
[13:32] Daruma Boa (daruma): you must be serious
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and i have never seen a god and so i dont bellieve in them
[13:32] Daruma Boa (daruma): Its a discussion between yourself and a symbol
[13:33] herman Bergson: it is self reflection only
[13:33] Daruma Boa (daruma): yes herman!
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): even not anything concluding all but natural and logical forces
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its all physics and chemistry, not gods
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats my belief how the world works but that is me
[13:33] Daruma Boa (daruma): ist also gods
[13:34] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita but the point is that our brain produces also other ideas, beliefs and so on...
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:34] Daruma Boa (daruma): we are all not so far away from old symbols as we all think
[13:34] herman Bergson: not just scientific ones
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats true, ve an be really creative in general
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and we all think a bit different
[13:34] herman Bergson: So eventually some people say...wait a is also just a belief
[13:34] Daruma Boa (daruma): true
[13:34] Ciska Riverstone: it is ;)
[13:35] Daruma Boa (daruma): its a way of thinking. science
[13:35] herman Bergson: I have no problem with that....
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but with science you can always proof things
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like they did with the higgs boson in LHC
[13:35] herman Bergson: it is the justification of the belief that counts
[13:35] CB Axel: Science, properly done, is not just a belief. It's testable.
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and by measurements in general we can confirm scientific things as well as with math, but that is impossible to do with gods
[13:35] herman Bergson: As you say is the justification of a belief that makes it meaningful
[13:35] Ciska Riverstone: well a beliefer would maybe claim the same thing for his or her belief cb ;)
[13:36] Ciska Riverstone: (religious believer)
[13:36] herman Bergson: No problem Ciska....
[13:36] herman Bergson: Let him justify the fact that jesus walked on water....
[13:36] CB Axel: I have never seen proof of a god that's testable and verifiable.
[13:36] Daruma Boa (daruma): ;-)
[13:36] herman Bergson: shhow me the arguments that justify that belief
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): for example the LHC have conformed everything i read in the schoolbooks about physics and chemistry by showing it to me live
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but can someone proof wht is in the bible? no
[13:37] Ciska Riverstone: I didn't take a snapshot and wasn't born then herman ;)
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it’s impossible
[13:37] herman Bergson: I have no problem with any belief people hold....
[13:38] herman Bergson: But holding a belief has consequences for the way this believer treats me for instance....
[13:38] CB Axel: Exactly, Herman.
[13:38] herman Bergson: I have no problem with that either.....
[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: it has mostly consequences how the believer treats himself
[13:39] herman Bergson: But as he affects my life I have the right to ask for a justification of his actions towards me
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the issue with gods i think is it causes conflict and wars about whos god is the right one
[13:39] herman Bergson: and if he is because I believe this or that
[13:39] herman Bergson: I have the right to ask him to justify his beliefs
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): instead of holding us together as one big family
[13:39] Daruma Boa (daruma): yes, precise
[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: so when its not provable that jesus walks on water - how does that affect your life?
[13:39] herman Bergson: as I have the right to justify mine
[13:40] CB Axel: I don't mind if someone wants to believe, but I do object if they then try to impose their rules arbitrarily chosen from a book of fairy tales supposedly inspired by a made up deity that I have a problem.
[13:40] herman Bergson: ti affects my life in the consequences people deduce from that fact and the power of this jesus ove life for instance
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i just wonder who made that idea up, the division of the red sea however could have been a tsunami or similar, someone thought it was the work of a god and put it in the bible
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but walking ON water?
[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: yes cb - I totally get that - but that does work for science beliefs as well  - we need to strictly separate hardly science from science there and thats the problem.
[13:41] herman Bergson: For instance that it is possible to defy or ignore natural laws or even claim that they are wrong
[13:41] Daruma Boa (daruma): when u run enouhg fast u can walk on water^^^
[13:41] herman Bergson: Like christians fight evolution theory for instance
[13:41] oola Neruda: or climate change
[13:41] herman Bergson: I bet you can Daruma :-))
[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: hard science does give relational "if then " chains - mostly involving objects
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): many things in the bible i think are for ex natural disasters occuring long ago that people did not understand the cause of at the time
[13:41] Daruma Boa (daruma): not only the christians. Turkey now also
[13:42] CB Axel: Yes, Ciska, but that is why scientific research needs to be verified independently,
[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: and that does not happen with a lot of science these days
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the great flood was probably just a really big storm
[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: so  - the problem really is to be specific there
[13:42] herman Bergson: tests should be replicable
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like kathrina
[13:42] CB Axel: It happens with science a lot more than it does in religion.
[13:42] herman Bergson: replicable
[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: and if you look at social science for example -  this will never happen  - nothing is reproducible in full all the time
[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: and thats exactly the point where belief kicks in
[13:43] oola Neruda: as an artist, i think in symbols... poets do also... the Quran is poetry and i see no reason why the Bible is not really poetry...
[13:43] herman Bergson: a next lecture we might clarify what creationism has as arguments for their point of view
[13:44] CB Axel: Good point, Ciska. Social science is a tough one. °͜°
[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: (as one consciousness scientist put it: one neuron is neurology 2 are psychology)
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): you can say that oola its poetry for sure but poetry is not reality, its a story
[13:44] Daruma Boa (daruma): we still ave to learn a lot as a human
[13:44] CB Axel: LOL, Ciska.
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and the bible want you to believe it is reality
[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: yes cb - but thats what was covered by religion in former days
[13:44] herman Bergson: True Ciska.....
[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: before we had social science
[13:44] Daruma Boa (daruma): the bible is totally misunderstood. believe me
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): in those days however indeed there were no scence
[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: we needed to find principles
[13:44] oola Neruda: it is a story to lead one to deeper thoughts...conclusions
[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: which were flexible enough to grasp reality
[13:45] herman Bergson: I think that all axiomatic systems are systems of beliefs
[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: wihtout digging too deep
[13:45] Daruma Boa (daruma): the bible was used. not understood
[13:45] oola Neruda: like defining love....
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aa
[13:45] oola Neruda: it isn't scientific
[13:45] herman Bergson: Euclid geometry  for instance
[13:45] oola Neruda: you need another "language"
[13:46] herman Bergson: To hit someone an the head with, Daruma?
[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: oola I think so too
[13:46] oola Neruda: smiles
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:46] Daruma Boa (daruma): lol, no. but too many old men did an interpretation with do not nowing hebrew of the bible
[13:47] herman Bergson: We discovered another language in the 17th century oola....
[13:47] Daruma Boa (daruma): so over the centuries there were a lot of mistakes
[13:47] oola Neruda: or the culture behind the symbols
[13:47] herman Bergson: or even 16th century...
[13:47] Daruma Boa (daruma): ja dat kan
[13:47] herman Bergson: that language was mathematics
[13:47] CB Axel: And now a book with a lot of mistakes in it is being used to make laws that I don't believe in and don't want.
[13:48] herman Bergson: Pythagoras already believed that reality was mathematical
[13:48] Daruma Boa (daruma): yes, i read a book about that. terrible to read this now. Because we build a life on these "wrong" information
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i agree with that
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): math is natures language
[13:48] Daruma Boa (daruma): and symbols
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): since we can calculate something and it is always true when done right
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its provable
[13:48] Daruma Boa (daruma): humans life and react mostly on symbols
[13:49] herman Bergson: what book are you talking about CB?
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and also math is how computers can do everything they do
[13:49] CB Axel: The Bible
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sound pictures ect can all be turned into math
[13:49] herman Bergson: I see :-)
[13:49] Alina Gabilondo: i think all of you discuss what bible writes but modern edition
[13:50] Alina Gabilondo: there are 2000+ years passed
[13:50] Alina Gabilondo: bible was rewrote many many times by monks
[13:50] Alina Gabilondo: usually not high educated ppl just with good handwriting
[13:50] Alina Gabilondo: so we do not know what happened that time
[13:50] oola Neruda: translation causes problems
[13:51] CB Axel: Alina, I'm talking about whatever Bible the people trying to force me to live with their rules are reading. If they actually read it, that is.
[13:51] Alina Gabilondo: we may onlt build supposed
[13:51] oola Neruda: especially when they do not understand the culture of the others speaking
[13:51] Daruma Boa (daruma): hoi merel
[13:51] Ciska Riverstone: Hi merel
[13:51] Alina Gabilondo: at some condition nature show to is paradoxes
[13:51] oola Neruda: translating poetry (symbols) is even harder
[13:51] Alina Gabilondo: not possible now to check
[13:51] Ciska Riverstone: its quality versus quantity oola
[13:52] Alina Gabilondo: norr ever know what really happen
[13:52] Alina Gabilondo: may be i type slow too late for me rl
[13:52] CB Axel: It is getting late for most of you. °͜°
[13:52] Alina Gabilondo: but also Bible is for population who HAVE to believe in some
[13:53] herman Bergson: Well then it is time to leave our 3180 gods behind
[13:53] Alina Gabilondo: believe not check
[13:53] herman Bergson: and I thank you for your participation again....:-)
[13:53] Daruma Boa (daruma): ja we humans must learn to believe things again
[13:53] Daruma Boa (daruma): not only checking
[13:53] Ciska Riverstone: thanx herman
[13:53] herman Bergson: I believe.....class dismissed ^_^
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:53] Daruma Boa (daruma): the most important thing we have are our feelings abut situtaions
[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[13:54] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.
[13:54] Daruma Boa (daruma): not about excel lsts
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): this keeps getting better

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