Thursday, February 23, 2017

645: Creationisme.....???

As commander of Apollo 17 Eugene Cernan visited the moon in 1972. Cernan died in a hospital in Houston on January 16, 2017, at the age of 82.
He said: "No one in his right mind is to look at the stars and everywhere eternally black night and deny the spirituality of the experience or the existence of a Supreme Being." 
This is a classic kind of statement. You can hear it in many variations, referring to the complexity of the human body or the beauty of nature.

However, such claims are nothing more than the expression of a personal conviction. What people do in such claims is,
they jump from a personal conviction, own inner, spiritual experience to the actual existence of a creator in the outside world.
Another words, a personal conviction or inner experience should be the proof for the existence of something in the outside world.
But what reason or argument is there for me to accept the same thing, for I don’t share these convictions or experiences at all.
Often people include a typical argument to make me share their claim. In this case it is the expression “in his right mind”.
We only can conclude here, that whoever denies the existence of a Supreme Being, is not in his right mind. Quite a claim, if this is based on just a personal experience of Eugene Cernan.
In fact this is a classic fallacy, which is called “argument ad hominem”. The trick is to disqualify the PERSON, who disagrees with you, because you lack good ARGUMENTS.
A modern example is Donald Trump who calls a judge a “so-called judge”, disqualifying the person, because he has no juridical arguments to contradict the judgement of the judge.
The other approach to justify the creationist view is by referring to creation stories. The Hindus have their Poerana, Christianity its Genesis story.
But here we already run into a problem. Some claim that you have to take the texts literally, others claim that the texts are metaphors
and thus are a representation of the truth, that the universe was created on purpose with a certain intrinsic goal.
What would it mean for our search for the meaning of life, if we would accept these creationist stories? 

The fact that we exist from a naturalistic point of view did not intrinsically hold a meaning of this existence. Does the belief that we are created?
We get in a difficult position here, for such a creator, isn’t it justified to ask at least WHY it/he/she created man?
The answer would tell us, what the meaning of life is. We may assume that this creator is some intelligence, which acts are based on a purpose he/she /it has in mind.
However from Genesis 1:28 we only learn: ”And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it:
and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.” -end quote
Many interpret this as an indication that we are  appointed as stewards of the earth. But we have no idea why we actually should care or how this command can give a meaning to our lives .
Are we created to take care of an earth of which we even not know why this god created it?
I would say from the perspective of human dignity that it would be better for man 
that he could determine his own goals rather that he simply must meet the needs of its creator.

Sometimes it is said, that we are here to do the will of god. Now we know that muslims are even more fanatic in doing so than christians.
Does that give meaning to our life? Our life would only have a purpose for our creator, but not for ourselves.
Are we created to serve our creator? Isn’t it eventually highly improbable that  the Supreme Being would feel compelled to create human beings, 
in all their complexity and with all the suffering and toil human life entails, solely with the intention that these creatures him serve? And for what reason?
This is the image of God as a selfish tyrant, determined to use his power to surround himself with supporters and to be praised.

My conclusion is, that we do not find an answer to why we are created, or just here. If it is to serve god,
then what, when I refuse that job and choose my own goals? Does that mean that I am not in my right mind?
Thank you for your attention…. ^_^

Main Sources:
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995
Julian Baggini, What's It All About? Philosophy and the Meaning of Life (2004)  
Richard David Precht, Wer bin ich, und wenn ja, wie viele? (2007)

The Discussion

[13:23] CB Axel: I have two problems with "serving God."
[13:23] CB Axel: One is, which god?
[13:24] druth Vlodovic: what spices t use
[13:24] CB Axel: There have been so many.
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:24] herman Bergson: yes  CB
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): depends on your own faith
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or lack of it
[13:24] CB Axel: Secondly, what does God want? How do I serve him?
[13:24] CB Axel: It's all so vague.
[13:24] herman Bergson: That is a classic CB :-)
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it depends on what you believe is the answer to all those questions
[13:25] herman Bergson: That is why we have a certain kind of people who tell us what god wants :-)
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but then which is the right one if anyindeed 1000s of gods and people believe all in different ones and think there is only that one
[13:25] Ciska Riverstone: mh  - what do you want and how do you pursue that goal?
[13:25] herman Bergson: That makes it all very arbitrary Gemma
[13:25] druth Vlodovic: when i went from religious to atheist I found that I had a need to serve that I was able to remove, to me the existence of this need is the root of the problem
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it depends on what you believe is the answer to all those questions
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): exactly
[13:25] CB Axel: What I want is irrelevant. Isn't it supposed to be what God wants?
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is the same answer over and over
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): some believe that god will let you know
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or has let you know
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): in the bible
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): in the koran
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): in the old testament
[13:26] CB Axel: But they can't both be right.
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): in buddhist beliefs
[13:26] herman Bergson: Yes burt when you look at the result is seems that god has many wills
[13:27] herman Bergson: the result isnt very promising
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it always goes back to the same thing
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): what do YOU believe
[13:27] herman Bergson: which is?
[13:27] CB Axel: So for others to tell me how to live based on the book that person wants to believe in is awfully arrogant of those people.
[13:27] herman Bergson: And that is the quintessential problem Gemma
[13:27] herman Bergson: is it just simply what everyone believes?
[13:28] CB Axel: I don't want someone who doesn't believe in evolution or global warming or things like that dictating how I should live my life.
[13:28] herman Bergson: that would be a hobbesian world....
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes it is
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i think
[13:28] herman Bergson: everyone for himself
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): if you don’t have a faith then so far we have not come up with another answer
[13:28] herman Bergson: Here again you see that we overlook one vital point...
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): about the meaning of life
[13:29] herman Bergson: that is that we are social animals...
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so far we have explored several not meanings in the class
[13:29] herman Bergson: whatever you like to believe you can not go beyond the socio-biological facticity
[13:30] herman Bergson: This is only the beginning Gemma...keep faith :-)))
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep lololol
[13:30] herman Bergson: we can think of all kinds of scenarios...
[13:31] herman Bergson: but we are forced to keep them within our biological context...
[13:31] herman Bergson: In that sense Hobbes was suppose that the natural state of man was homo homini lupus
[13:32] herman Bergson: a double mistake even because the wolf is one of the most social animals :-)
[13:32] druth Vlodovic: if coherence of the group is the ultimate good then forcing everyone to obey a somewhat arbitrary god is the ultimate good (somewhat arbitrary makes faith more important and enhances the binding agent through cognitive dissonance)
[13:33] herman Bergson: yes Druth, that is what religions in a group are  used for...
[13:33] herman Bergson: to enforce the WE - THE OTHERS feeling
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and the one believing in one god tries to erradicate every other bellieving in other gods leading to war and terror
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): just look how shia and sunnis blow each other up
[13:34] herman Bergson: That whole cloud above it with spirits god ....especially a punishing god is effective fantasy, I'd say
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so meaningless
[13:34] Ciska Riverstone: well if we all would believe in just one - would that be paradise because we have no longer others?
[13:34] druth Vlodovic: actually if working against one's own good is the mark of someone not in their right mind then decrying god in the face of opposition can be said to be a mark of insanity
[13:35] herman Bergson: Cisk'a point is interesting....would belief in one god or something by all man create paradise?
[13:35] herman Bergson: The answer is quite
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): interesting
[13:36] druth Vlodovic: no?
[13:36] herman Bergson: The reason.....
[13:36] Ciska Riverstone: I guess thats what a lot of people instinctively try to do - but the path there is wrong
[13:36] herman Bergson: Look at the group dynamics in any group of social aniimal
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): there will always be nonbelievers
[13:36] Ciska Riverstone: the question is where do the group dynamics come from herman?
[13:36] herman Bergson: the cohesion is not created by a shared belief...animals dont have gods or beliefs
[13:37] Ciska Riverstone: well they split up and reunite too
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed and yet they hold together
[13:37] herman Bergson: They are biological...innate Ciska....
[13:37] Ciska Riverstone: and they do not built stuff together that can destroy the earth ;)
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): also true
[13:37] herman Bergson: The need to protect....the need to control...the need to share game....
[13:37] Ciska Riverstone: animals live in smaller groups
[13:38] druth Vlodovic: so we have belief because of cohesion, not cohesion because of belief?
[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: and sometimes some of them leave a group and go to another
[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: maybe because they do not belief in the thing the group wants?
[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: ;)
[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: or the group says you don't  have according to our rules
[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: leave?
[13:38] herman Bergson: That look a bit like who came first the chicken or the egg Druth
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): :-)
[13:39] herman Bergson: the difference between man and primates is our consciousness
[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: thats still jst a theory
[13:39] herman Bergson: we have to take that into account too
[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: we are not able to really say that primates have no consciousness
[13:39] herman Bergson: we can reflect upon our actions....
[13:39] Ciska Riverstone whispers: who says they cannot?
[13:39] druth Vlodovic: well,it seems that belief is a shorthand to manipulating the world, either other humans or nature,the better the belief is at that the more likelyyou are to survive
[13:40] herman Bergson: have thence a sense of right and wrong
[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: only because we do not understand their systems does not mean there is none
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true
[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: I fact - latest research shows more and more of tha
[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: t
[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: that they might have
[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: (which any cat owner already knows)
[13:40] druth Vlodovic: but we see in reality that being poor and miserable gets you more kids, so being successful might be anti-darwinian
[13:40] herman Bergson: That is  only suggestive in my opinion Ciska....
[13:41] herman Bergson: ONly man has language, a sense of history
[13:41] herman Bergson: for instance
[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: how can u conclude animals have no sense of history?
[13:42] herman Bergson: Some primates show rudimentary behavior that points at a sense of fairness indeed
[13:43] herman Bergson: Only we can record our past....
[13:43] herman Bergson: that does not mean that some animals have a good memory of certain events
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:43] herman Bergson: but they have no conception of linear time....
[13:44] herman Bergson: they really don't  know about the big bang
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): again a reason to figure out the meaning of life
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: for me thats all thesis which we cannot prove
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as said this is really complex
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but interesting
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: for example
[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: lets say we find out
[13:45] herman Bergson: That is a nice thesis Ciska....
[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: how the historical markers in our genes work
[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: we find that out and can say that accurately
[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: so when we trigger one
[13:45] herman Bergson: It puts on your shoulder the obligation to prove that these ideas  are wrong....
[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: that initiates a behaviour
[13:45] herman Bergson: :-)
[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: because I question your beliefs I must prove it ;`? ;)
[13:46] herman Bergson: no no....
[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: I cannot
[13:46] herman Bergson: I base my beliefs on the ethological research on animal behavior
[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: me too ;)
[13:47] herman Bergson: Like man as de Waal does or Konrad Lorenz...
[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: and u conclude your way
[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: and I conclude mine
[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: and mine is: we cannot really know
[13:47] herman Bergson: that would make science a bit arbitrary, I'd say
[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: why?
[13:48] herman Bergson: the deduce contradictory conclusions from the same data...ther emust be something wrong
[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: science does find reproducible facts
[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: and sometimes it does not
[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: so we have to search on until there are
[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: and as long as there are not
[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: the between stuff is just simple belief
[13:49] druth Vlodovic: isn't the existence of social habits an indication of a form of history?   since it indicates learning from experience and experience is in the past
[13:49] herman Bergson: hypotheses, I'd say...not beliefs
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): goes back to my original comment
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it depends on what you believe is the answer to all those questions
[13:49] Ciska Riverstone: yes gemma
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:49] Ciska Riverstone: thats my point
[13:49] Ciska Riverstone: ;)
[13:49] druth Vlodovic: "think" might be a better term,"beliefs" tend to be defended with emotion
[13:49] herman Bergson: but you are not free to believe just anything....
[13:50] CB Axel: Not necessarily, druth. Ants have social habits. Did they learn those from past experience?
[13:50] Ciska Riverstone: well facts are facts
[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): many of the philosophers did
[13:50] herman Bergson: well, you may of course but it would lead to disaster
[13:50] Ciska Riverstone: the problem is when people start labeling beliefs as facts
[13:50] Ciska Riverstone: but thats not only a problem with religion
[13:50] herman Bergson: yes indeed
[13:50] Ciska Riverstone: ita a problem with trump too
[13:50] Ciska Riverstone: ;)
[13:50] herman Bergson: That is what religions  do...
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): problem is i they really really believe it they do become facts to them
[13:50] herman Bergson: That is what Cernan did
[13:50] Ciska Riverstone: or with just saying  animals have no consciousness
[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): perception becomes reality
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): took me a while to understand that
[13:51] Ciska Riverstone: as far as we know up to now - they may not have one but we still have to prove that
[13:51] herman Bergson: It is not that black and white Ciska....
[13:51] Ciska Riverstone: gemma - the interesting question might be
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i want some form of proof before i bellieve anything
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that it really is this way
[13:52] Ciska Riverstone: do we need perceptions to have a reality at times?
[13:52] herman Bergson: some anmimals show signs of self awareness....but not to the level we have it
[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but if you firmly believe it you don’t need proof
[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): you believe it has been proved
[13:52] CB Axel: I firmly believe that I need proof.
[13:52] herman Bergson: There were people who firmly believed that they could fly Gemma :-)
[13:52] druth Vlodovic: I only think I need proof, it is surprising how often I do without it
[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep
[13:52] Ciska Riverstone: me too cb and I cannot see a proof that tells me animals have no consciousness
[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and they did
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess but still, no one can ever have seen god for ex, probably was just a dream and then they bellieve its the sign of god
[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): for a second
[13:53] herman Bergson: Oh yes Druth
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but of course i require sigma 5 corfirm
[13:53] CB Axel: OK. I much prefer to have proof.
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cern term for when they are 100 % sure
[13:54] herman Bergson: If ia would analyse everything I say rpom the perspective of how must hard proof I have for every statement, I"d better shut up :-0
[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but it have happened sometime that i have been unsure if i just dreamt a thing but often it is a such strange thing that i logically conclude i must have dreamt that
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and it cant be real
[13:54] herman Bergson: 99% of whta you study and accept as true is based on authority....
[13:55] druth Vlodovic: the biggie for god would be, if he can provide proof but doesn't he must have a reason for it
[13:55] druth Vlodovic: maybe he doesn't care?
[13:55] herman Bergson: Do you really believe I know what gravity is or that space is bend?
[13:55] herman Bergson: I havent the slightest proof...just the authority of for instance einstein
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I know gravity exist but i dont know yet how it works since it is so hard to study
[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): all i know is bigger mass = bigger gravity
[13:56] druth Vlodovic: or so they tell me
[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so is somewhat related to number of atoms in total
[13:56] herman Bergson: that 's it..."or so they tell me"
[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): in an object
[13:57] herman Bergson: Very hot issue these days....facts and proof.....especially in politics :-)
[13:57] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): to be sure
[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:57] druth Vlodovic: if we want to bring this back to religion, can you imagine a god who will not provide proof of his existence?
[13:58] herman Bergson: fact and alternative facts....where is the proof of the (alternative ) facts and so on
[13:58] herman Bergson: Good question Druth :-)
[13:58] Ciska Riverstone: hehehe
[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i feel bashing up trump a bit
[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): speaking of politics
[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:58] herman Bergson: oops...
[13:59] CB Axel: I can imagine a god like that, because I used to believe in one.
[13:59] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:59] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:59] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i do that when i watch the news
[13:59] CB Axel: And I have a good imagination.
[13:59] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:59] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:59] herman Bergson: The fiirst god who really proofs his existence blows away all other religions and competitors :-)
[13:59] druth Vlodovic: tome it seems that either he 1) can't 2) won't or 3) doesn't care
[13:59] Ciska Riverstone: that would be..
[13:59] herman Bergson: I wonder why there isnt such a smart guy upthere?
[13:59] Ciska Riverstone: om
[13:59] Ciska Riverstone: ;)
[13:59] CB Axel: Or doesn't exist, druth.
[14:00] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): or a woman?
[14:00] druth Vlodovic: maybe he is too smart to draw out attention   :P
[14:00] druth Vlodovic: "our"
[14:00] herman Bergson: Yes...a beautiful woman Beertje...that would be something....
[14:00] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): kik
[14:00] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[14:00] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[14:00] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why ia the God always a man?
[14:00] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): eons of belief
[14:01] druth Vlodovic: I think most religions it is 50/50 or so
[14:01] herman Bergson: no no..Beertje no need of that...but it is an historical fact elas
[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): to justify repression of women based on religion i guess
[14:01] herman Bergson: I guess so too Bejiita
[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): just take saudi arabia as a horrible example
[14:01] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): however bej teh first to claim women's rights were religions
[14:01] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so
[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm ok
[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well some religions are different then others
[14:02] druth Vlodovic: in the old days they called it "isms" which I think is a clearer way of putting it
[14:02] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): correct
[14:02] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh time to go!
[14:02] druth Vlodovic: some religions probably didn't qualify as isms
[14:02] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[14:02] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[14:02] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): late
[14:02] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes time flew here
[14:02] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[14:02] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): for the class
[14:02] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but was interesting as usual
[14:02] herman Bergson: Bye Gemma
[14:02] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye Gemma
[14:02] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman - thanx all
[14:02] druth Vlodovic: yes, thanks herman, everyone
[14:02] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): see you soon!
[14:03] druth Vlodovic: have fun all
[14:03] CB Axel: Thank you, all.
[14:03] CB Axel: Very interesting discussion.
[14:03] herman Bergson: Class dismisses itself ^_^
[14:03] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu next time all
[14:03] herman Bergson: Thank you all again :-)
[14:03] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): smiles
[14:03] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): cant believe it is almost the middle of Feb
[14:03] CB Axel: See you next week.
[14:03] Ciska Riverstone:
[14:03] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[14:04] herman Bergson: Quite a discussion today :-)

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