Sunday, May 14, 2017

664: Wouldn't we be happy in The Matrix...?

What we are investigating now is the question “Is happiness the same as pleasure:. This is what John Stuart Mill assumed.
The answer is simply NO. You can feel happy but yet do not really experience pleasure in this happiness.
Just take two Formule I drivers. They are close friends, but competitors too, because they belong to different teams.
The final round. They occupy position one and two. No chance number two will ever overtake number one.
If he could HE would become the world champion. Number one crashed and is killed in the accident.
Number two thus wins and becomes the world champion. He feels happy about it, 
but yet there is no feeling of pleasure in his victory. Only sadness about the loss of a friend.
There is another interesting feature of happiness. I guess you all know the movie THE MATRIX.
In the Matrix world people live a happy life…super happy even, but WE know that they are stored in cocoons and only live this live in their brains.
The choice you have is there between living outside the machine and seeing if there is a chance of happiness 
and a life in the machine and being sure of happiness. 
And from your point of view, both forms of life feel the same. Would you choose to live the rest of your life in such a machine?
If your answer is yes, I think you belong to a minority. Most people would not only reject this opportunity,
they would find it horrendous. The problem is that they feel that they would not lead a real life in the machine.
It's not enough to have the experience of a good life, they want a good life that's real.
This tells us something interesting about happiness. If we decline this offer of the machine,
it means that there seems to be something more valuable than happiness. So,  happiness is definitely no the ultimate meaning of life.
And what about happiness when we thank for the opportunity to live in the MATRIX? 
The most obvious and plausible answer is, in my opinion, that we attach great importance to a set of values that can be called AUTHENTICITY 
This concept is very difficult to grasp, but it has to do with the fact that we want to lead life in its full truth 
and want to see the world as it is and we do not want to fool ourselves in one way or another 
It is about the fact that we want to be the creators of our lives, the fact that we want our experience to be the result of actual efforts and power  for our part, 
the fact that we are dealing with people who are just like us and not just VIRTUAL. 

Just a thought: can your avatar here feel happy while you feel miserable? ; -))))

Thank you for your attention….

The Discussion

[13:20] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I don't know the Matrix but it seems weird to me
[13:20] herman Bergson: You should watch that movie Beertje :-)
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they are amazing, totally unique
[13:21] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): how can we know happiness when it's always there?
[13:21] herman Bergson: Good question, Beertje :-))
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:21] CB Axel: That's an interesting point, Beertje.
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nothing to compare to
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): in that case i guess
[13:21] herman Bergson: I think we can from a psychological point of view....
[13:22] herman Bergson: but you are right....when it is always there we won't notice it
[13:23] CB Axel: wb, bergie
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): found the matrix machine? I dont have made one so you wont find it at my place
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol
[13:23] herman Bergson: Why did you leave us in the dark Bergie ? :-)
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): there is a theory by some that we could in fact just be in a such simulation but i doubt that
[13:24] herman Bergson: WHat I find interesting is this idea of authenticity.....
[13:24] bergfrau Apfelbaum: uaaah!! i had a bad crash! blue screen and so
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaaaw
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[13:24] herman Bergson: wow....heavy
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but it works ok now?
[13:25] herman Bergson: Do we value authenticity more than happiness?
[13:25] CB Axel: I don't know.
[13:26] CB Axel: It seems that inauthentic happiness is better than authentic misery.
[13:26] herman Bergson: the adjective is related to the person, not to happiness or misery....
[13:27] herman Bergson: as I said...
[13:27] herman Bergson: This concept is very difficult to grasp, but it has to do with the fact that we want to lead life in its full truth 
and want to see the world as it is and we do not want to fool ourselves in one way or another 
It is about the fact that we want to be the creators of our lives, the fact that we want our experience to be the result of actual efforts and power  for our part, 
the fact that we are dealing with people who are just like us and not just VIRTUAL.
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true
[13:28] herman Bergson: This could be an important concept in relation to the meaning of life....
[13:29] herman Bergson: the idea of being an authentic person experiencing misery and happiness
[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): you are talking about humans I is not for humans alone, what is the meaning of life in general?
[13:30] herman Bergson: Again a good one Beertje :-)
[13:30] herman Bergson: But life doesnt ask about its plant or tree or bird does
[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: the question is can we only find authenticity when we go "in relation" and not on our own?
[13:31] herman Bergson: it is US humans that are able....almost forced to ask this question....that is waht makes us not just living things but human
[13:32] herman Bergson: My first thought is that authenticity does not depend on any relation with others....Ciska
[13:32] Ciska Riverstone: well
[13:32] Ciska Riverstone: thats the point yes... so
[13:32] Ciska Riverstone: if I am in a matrix machine
[13:32] Ciska Riverstone: whatever it gives me as outer world
[13:33] Ciska Riverstone: does I stop me from being authentic when we believe for a moment that we authenticity is really something we do not  find "outside"
[13:33] Ciska Riverstone: It's still me in the machine
[13:33] Ciska Riverstone: and yet we assume
[13:34] Ciska Riverstone: that because the relations ar technically produced to make me happy
[13:34] Ciska Riverstone: its unauthentic?
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we feel like it is real, unaware wea re in a machine and therefore thing its authentic
[13:34] herman Bergson: I think the situation is somewhat different....
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats how it is in the films
[13:34] herman Bergson: Point here was that you have a CHOICE.....
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): untill Neo take the red pill and plunge back to reality
[13:34] Ciska Riverstone: how so herman? its still us and if authenticity really exists without an "outer" input...
[13:35] Ciska Riverstone: well I still have decision choices - no?
[13:35] herman Bergson: a virtual happy life inside the machine of a life with chances on happiness outside the machine
[13:35] Ciska Riverstone: I do not know of that I presume yes
[13:35] Ciska Riverstone: but still
[13:35] Ciska Riverstone: even that would be an outer world
[13:35] Ciska Riverstone: to go into contact with
[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what is the meaning of life of disabled people?
[13:35] CB Axel: Isn't there an equal chance of unhappiness outside of the machine?
[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): the ones that have no choice in their life?
[13:36] Ciska Riverstone: it always means that authenticity is depended on an outer existent with which I go into relation
[13:36] herman Bergson: yes...outside the machine you are not sure of happiness....inside you are
[13:36] herman Bergson: your choice....
[13:37] Ciska Riverstone: well but if authenticity - like u  stated first - is really independent.. and only a part of the self...
[13:37] herman Bergson: YEs Ciska, if you say it defines your relation with the world you live in...
[13:37] Ciska Riverstone: so authenticity is depended on the outside world
[13:37] Ciska Riverstone: and on our relation with it
[13:37] herman Bergson: I wouldnt say  that.....
[13:37] Ciska Riverstone: well with out it - it does not seem to exist?
[13:37] herman Bergson: it depends on how you state your relation with the outer world
[13:38] herman Bergson: it depends on your mind
[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: how so?
[13:38] herman Bergson: That is where the thoughts come from.....
[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: on the mind getting external input?
[13:38] herman Bergson: your mind....your view of reality...of yourself
[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: yes but that still means u need something to go into relatiion with
[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: that does something to my authenticity
[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: I make other choices
[13:40] herman Bergson: seems obvious to me....we live in a real world...
[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: depending on the input
[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: well we talk about concepts right now - yes?
[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: and we try to grasp authenticity
[13:40] herman Bergson: yes
[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: my point is
[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: maybe in the end.. its not authenticity
[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: but relation
[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: which is the meaning of life
[13:41] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): Hello all
[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: hi john
[13:41] herman Bergson: Ahh I see...
[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hello John
[13:41] herman Bergson: I did not mean to say that authenticity is the meaning of life....
[13:42] herman Bergson: At the most it is part of the story....
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:42] herman Bergson: Like altruism is part of the story
[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: yes - fo rme it boils down to any kind of relation - relation to nature - to humans to whatever
[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: even to concepts ;)
[13:43] herman Bergson: we should not run into the trap of thinking that the meaning of life is one well defined something...
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its a combination of things
[13:43] herman Bergson: yes..
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like pieces of a puzzle and when that puzzle is laid and complete we have found the meaning of life
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): something like that I guess
[13:44] herman Bergson: and that puzzle could be personal too, Bejiita....
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:44] CB Axel: I think my puzzle must have some pieces missing.
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we all have different goal
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): s
[13:44] herman Bergson: which means that we all could have different perspectives on th emeaning of life
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true
[13:45] herman Bergson: That is what a philosopher does CB.....finding the missing pieces :-))
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that’s what we are here for
[13:46] herman Bergson: authenticity might be one of the pieces...
[13:47] herman Bergson: We'll follow that trail in coming lectures :-)
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aa
[13:47] Ciska Riverstone:
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the trail of puzzle pieces
[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman
[13:47] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): is this discussion in text only?
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:47] herman Bergson: Yes John
[13:47] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): ok
[13:47] bergfrau Apfelbaum: I hope we all find our last part very late! and healthy
[13:48] herman Bergson: We are not in a hurry Bergie ^_^
[13:48] bergfrau Apfelbaum: good so!cheers!!
[13:48] herman Bergson: Maybe we feel quite happy with the given situation here :-))
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:49] herman Bergson: OK then....ready to move on to the next lecture :-0
[13:49] herman Bergson: Thank you all again for your participation....
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu next time then
[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): bye for now all
[13:49] herman Bergson: do some research on the concept of authenticity...might produce some interesting results...
[13:49] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ty Herman *clapclap*
[13:49] CB Axel: There's a lot to think about as usual. °͜°

[13:49] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): Thank you Herman

No comments:

Post a Comment