Wednesday, May 31, 2017

667: I think, but do "I" exist?

Reading my newspaper yesterday I found an article on the 48th Poetry International Festival in Rotterdam, which started May 29.
What attracted my attention was the theme of the festival. Poets from all over the world were invited to write an “I” poem
“I”/“me” should be the theme of the poem. So, this “I”, like recently was “the brain” is the leading theme of the day, it seems.
In that I am floating along with the main stream myself, for the theme of my next project will the this “I” too.
An other more philosophical word is “the Self”, which belongs to the chapter of the subject of “Personal Identity”.
In our search for the meaning of life last Thursday we considered the option of letting go of the Self, of a uniting with the universe as a kind of meaning of life
Then Descartes showed up and proved, that such an idea is nonsense. The quintessence of reality is “I”, or to be more specific “I think, therefor I am”.
And did Descartes thus win the debate? Although his philosophy has had a great influence in our culture, his “Cogito” is questionable.
The problem with Descartes thesis is, that we can understand this thinking, but where does this “I” come from. For Descartes it was a clear and distinct idea.
But David Hume (1711 -1776) commented on this in 1739 in “A Treatise of Human Nature” . Book 1, Ch.4, sect. 6. —> QUOTE
It must be some one impression, that gives rise to every real idea. But self or person is not any one impression, 
but that to which our several impressions and ideas are supposed to have a reference. 
If any impression gives rise to the idea of self, that impression must continue invariably the same, 
through the whole course of our lives; since self is supposed to exist after that manner. But there is no impression constant and invariable. 
Pain and pleasure, grief and joy, passions and sensations succeed each other, and never all exist at the same time. 
It cannot, therefore, be from any of these impressions, or from any other, that the idea of self is derived; and consequently there is no such idea.
(…) For my part, when I enter most intimately into what I call myself, I always stumble on some particular perception or other, of heat or cold, light or shade, love or hatred, pain or pleasure.
I never can catch myself at any time without a perception, and never can observe any thing but the perception. 
When my perceptions are removed for any time, as by sound sleep; so long am I insensible of myself, and may truly be said not to exist.
This quote may have been a bit tough on you, but it boils down to this. To say “I know for certain…” what should we primarily trust: our ratio or our senses?
It is the eternal controversy. And Hume shows us, that Descartes pulls this “I” like a rabbit out of a high head.
This puts us up with the question, what to do with the idea of losing the ego, losing the grip we have on our own self  
to make way for a kind of surrender to a more comprehensive reality, when we have to conclude  that there does not exist such a thing like the “I” ?

Thank you for your attention again… ^_^

The Discussion

[13:21] .: Thank you for your attention again… ^_^
[13:21] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ditto
[13:21] herman Bergson: To answer the remark:  do you think he was arguing in the sense that self comes from our brain vs an eternal soul
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) whispers: not losing my ego
[13:22] herman Bergson: In a sense Hume relates the existence of a self with the brain in that he relies only on the sensory  experience
[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i go for senses
[13:23] herman Bergson: I agree Gemma :-)
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:24] herman Bergson: The problem with Descartes is that he never explains where he had found that "I" in his "I think"
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i just hope that this I does not lead us back to ayn rand
[13:25] herman Bergson: I see no relation there Gemma :-)
[13:25] Delicatia: i feel like i'm missing a bunch of inside jokes
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well the I was the main item in her philosophy
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I is the topic right now in the USA
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): no delicatia
[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's not a joke Delicatia
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Ayn rand, the mother of egoism and greed
[13:25] herman Bergson: No Delicata you just missed a lot of lectures here :-))
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:26] Delicatia: see i didn’t read ann rand like that at all
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): you will see the issues
[13:26] Delicatia: i jsut read all her books last year
[13:26] herman Bergson: And what was your concluslon Delicata?
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i don’t like her and I see the present administration here as all her afficinados
[13:27] Delicatia: in a nutshell, it was the politicians that were greedy
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but she approved of it all
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): watch her videos on youtube
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes, thinking greed and selfishness is something good
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I is most importat
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): wich it is NOT
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): me myself andI
[13:27] Delicatia: i didnt get that out of atlas shrugs
[13:28] herman Bergson: No the I Descartes and Hume are looking for is the Self....
[13:28] herman Bergson: the question of personal identity
[13:28] Delicatia: well isnt personal identity the reality of whoever is thinking it
[13:29] herman Bergson: the I the same person now as as was when  I was 10 years old, for inststance...
[13:30] herman Bergson: The main question was
[13:30] Laila Schuman: when you do not see a child for years... and then meet them again... they are different
[13:31] herman Bergson: that finding the meaning of life was related to let the EGO in meditation
[13:31] herman Bergson: where the meaning of life should be the experience of oneness with the universe or so
[13:32] Delicatia: that last statement is that your belief or what we are to ponder?
[13:32] herman Bergson: and the philosophical question related to this we have such an EGO....a Self?
[13:33] herman Bergson: Descartes came up with one and Hume showed that he can't find it :-)
[13:34] herman Bergson: So what to do with all these philosophuies which tell us to leave our EGO / SELF behind ...and meditate
[13:35] herman Bergson: and promis us tthat in that we'll discover the meaning of life
[13:35] CB Axel: That should have been easy for Hume. He didn't have a self to leave. °͜°
[13:35] herman Bergson: Indeed CB....he couldn't find it :-)
[13:36] herman Bergson: H ecould find all his personal impressions...of pain and pleasure and so on....but that impression of this Self eluded him
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I'm Sorry! i was called to rl
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I sorry..
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): back
[13:37] herman Bergson: While Descartes made it  his basic priciple of existence
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): wb Gemma
[13:37] CB Axel: We are our experiences?
[13:37] herman Bergson: I'd say so, yes
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I guess so
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I think so cb but
[13:37] Delicatia: well those at two peoples experience and they wrote about it; it doesnt define the truth either way unless you choose to believe it
[13:38] Laila Schuman: what part of us "believes" things
[13:38] Delicatia: at-are
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): maybe thinking about it so much is a problem
[13:38] herman Bergson: I wouldnt say that Delicata....
[13:39] herman Bergson: it is not a matter of believing this or that....
[13:39] Delicatia: why isnt each of our experience just as valid as we search for "self"
[13:39] herman Bergson: it is a matter of arguments
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is why we discuss :)
[13:40] Delicatia: because after what i've just recently learned about freud and hysteria, i dont think i want any male to define what my experience or truth is
[13:40] herman Bergson: As Hume said...I experience a lot..can name all experiences..but there is none I can call "self"
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right on delicatia
[13:41] herman Bergson: Freud was a fraud :-)
[13:41] herman Bergson: His name was misspelled :-)
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): what a mess he made of womanhood
[13:41] Delicatia: yet we still talk ego & id
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): true
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:41] herman Bergson: Not here Delicata
[13:41] Delicatia: i'm going through my own search for what i call my authentic self
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we all are
[13:41] herman Bergson: the ego/id story is plane nonsense
[13:42] Delicatia: because the majority of my ideas were implanted before i have free thought to say NO,
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): no matter how old you get we still continue to do that
[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what is the id in ego/id?
[13:42] herman Bergson: Then I love to advertise my next project for you Delicalta :-))))
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that was freud beertje
[13:42] herman Bergson: Don't mind Beertje....long story :-)
[13:42] Delicatia: id is the animal right?
[13:43] Delicatia: brain
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right dont get into it
[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): afkorting waarvan?
[13:43] Laila Schuman: that would be Jung
[13:43] Delicatia: i cant remember now, its been a long time
[13:43] Delicatia: but no one sent me the memo it has all been debunked
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): youc an check him out n the web
[13:43] herman Bergson: id is the Latin and means IT
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but the in his time he was new in psychology
[13:44] herman Bergson: quidquid id est....whatever IT is...
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so got a lot of attetion
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): attention even
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): distractions
[13:44] herman Bergson: Like Descartes Freud sent us in the wrong direction, is my opinion
[13:45] Delicatia: i have to sl has been instrumental in my getting my own voice.. its a great place to visit new idea and step up w/o too much danger
[13:45] herman Bergson: but within their context of history it is understandable
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the symposium ovre the weekend showed that a lot
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): at virtual ability
[13:45] herman Bergson: No danger here Delicata...all problems are handled here in a delicate way
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i have been trying to graduate for over 9 years
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): something new always comes up ...more questions
[13:47] herman Bergson: LIke the new project Gemma...:-)
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:47] Delicatia: lol, gemma, i got my BA 25 years after my AA
[13:47] herman Bergson: But we are not yet done with the present one
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i think we should do some field trips
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): in the next one
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[13:48] Delicatia: so is this a wrap up of a lesson
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:48] Delicatia: ah
[13:48] herman Bergson: I am thinking of combining philosophy and psychology in the next project...
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): thursday we will be back
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): do you have the blog website ?
[13:48] Delicatia: thursdays i have a dbt class
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh dear
[13:48] Delicatia: so i'm not always on
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well missing you can check on the web
[13:49] CB Axel: We've been discussing the meaning of life for weeks, but we haven't found it yet. °͜°
[13:49] Delicatia: lol
[13:49] herman Bergson: But you are always welcome Delicata
[13:49] Delicatia: i hope to make it part of tues
[13:49] Delicatia: each week
[13:49] herman Bergson: I disagree CB!
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thursdays as well
[13:50] Delicatia: for me, i have to make meaning each minute.. learning has big meaning and gets me excited
[13:50] CB Axel: Well, I haven't found it yet.
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): tuesday and thursday same time each week
[13:51] herman Bergson: Hope we'll find it somehow CB...:-)
[13:51] Ciska Riverstone: cb - experiencing?
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): come back delicata
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oops
[13:51] Delicatia: yes, as often as i can
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): delicatia
[13:51] Delicatia: deli is fine too
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is wht i do
[13:51] Delicatia: its easier
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh good ol
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:52] herman Bergson: Well...that is all settled then :-)
[13:52] herman Bergson: Time to thank you all again for your participation :-)
[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): PUUUH now i found a meaning of life finally
[13:52] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....^_^
[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bej
[13:52] Ciska Riverstone: Thank you herman and all
[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we aare more mixed up than ever
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i finally managed to create constant speed rotation in blender with no jerking when loop restarts
[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): true Gemma:)
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): have had this issue forever
[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bye for now
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats one goal in life done for me
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:53] herman Bergson: Congrats Bejiita :-))
[13:53] CB Axel: LOL, Bejiita.

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