Wednesday, June 14, 2017

668: The Self is an Illusion......

Make an attempt at introspection and become conscious of your Self. According to Hume you will not succeed. 
You will be aware of certain thoughts and feelings, but not of any Self, having those thoughts or feelings.
Is  this a weird idea…no Self? Was Hume just a philosophical weirdo? Fortunately the answer is NO.
We find a similar view in a totally different culture and it developed there independent of ours. There is no influence here.
Buddhists assume that the individual person is composed of five Khandas (aggregate, group).
It refers to the five aggregates concept that asserts five elements constitute and completely explain a sentient being’s mental and physical existence. 
The five aggregates or heaps are: form (or matter or body) (rupa), sensations (or feelings, received from form) (vedana), 
perceptions (samjna), mental activity or formations (sankhara), and consciousness (vijnana)
What we observe here is that in different places and times people come to the same conclusion. But does this mean that the Self is an illusion?
It is an issue we already have encountered before. When you take your watch apart, you can name all individual parts, but none is named “watch”. So, where is it?
The fact that the watch is no more than the whole of the parts does not mean that it is an illusion. 
It means that as long as the watch is the whole of the parts, and as long as this whole of the parts exists, the watch must exist. 
The only "illusion" would be if we would have a rather strange idea that a watch is something different than an appropriately assembled amount of parts.
In the same way, the only meaning in which Self is an illusion, is when we see it as a distinctive thing 
that can be determined independently of a particular body, thoughts, and certain feelings.   
This seems to be the only sensible conclusion we can make when accepting the Buddhist doctrine or the arguments of David Hume.
Thence you could come to the conclusion, that all those theories and philosophies, which claim that dissolving the Ego or Self, 
will offer you insight in the meaning of life are claiming something like “Take your watch apart and experience thus the real watch”
I’d rather say that the opposite may be true. Part of the meaning of life is exactly that, a focus on your inner self,
which mean a focus on getting all composing parts work together in balance and harmony. 
In other words, all these theories, philosophies and beliefs, that preach us to free us from our Ego or Self
are in fact not helpful at all to find a meaning of life.
Thank you for your attention again… ^_^

The Discussion

[13:20] herman Bergson: Take your time to digest this ^_^
[13:20] Dag (daggash.bayn): the most convincing view I hit on was from Krishnamurti , he stated that the self is equal to the content or actually IS the content , would that make sense ?
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Well its just like any machine or object made up of several different part, all of them is required to make up the machine/object
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): same for us
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i think since you mentioned buddhism the dalai lama probably has the best understanding of self than anyone i have heard or read
[13:21] herman Bergson: Think so yes.....
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the individual parts are not named same as the entire object
[13:22] herman Bergson: Indeed Bejiita
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): simplest explanation i can get to
[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and i think that is why so many people practice yoga so long
[13:22] CB Axel: So the meaning of life can be found by getting all these parts to work well together to make a well-functioning self?
[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): concentration on the self
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:22] herman Bergson: Nothing wrong with yoga Gemma...
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i think so
[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right
[13:22] herman Bergson: But it doesnt show you the meaning of life...
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe no
[13:23] herman Bergson: It leads to subjective and personal experiences, and people feel good about those
[13:23] herman Bergson: any physical excise is healthy..:-)
[13:24] herman Bergson: Take top shape becaus eof break dancing :-)
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): you get a workout and get happy at same time
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): esp with these awesome dudes im with
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:25] herman Bergson: I like the idea that the meaning of life is related to getting all inner processes in balance and harmony
[13:26] Dag (daggash.bayn): well in meditation/yoga  one can experience "no meaning" , wich is quite therapeutic and useful
[13:26] herman Bergson: also have become an endorphines junky :-)))
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): when I do something I like and get it good (at the moment this animation stuff) i feel good
[13:26] herman Bergson: and dopamine probably too :-)
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): still looking for self tho
[13:27] CB Axel: Don't forget serotonin
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): was out playing football before too with some friends, was fun but daaaamn windy it was wich did nit felt so nice even the game itself was fun
[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): did you eat beans?
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so did i felt good and not good at same time there?
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:27] herman Bergson: and oxitocine :-)
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well i guess it was 2 different sort of feelings
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the wind did not made me sad, just cold, although unpleasant not same type of feeling altough negative
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): interesting idea
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): never thought of it like that
[13:29] herman Bergson: With the self we have this ontological what way does it exist...
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well also remember it is a word
[13:29] herman Bergson: as I said ...we ran into this issue before
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we did
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:29] herman Bergson: it is not just a word.....
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): no but it can have synonyms we runn into
[13:30] herman Bergson: we can say sensible things about it which are true or false
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): different philosophers say different thing
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) whispers: we have talked about for years !!!!!
[13:31] herman Bergson smiles
[13:31] herman Bergson: This November we can celebrate the tenth anniversary of the Philosophy class :-))
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): YAY! (yay!)
[13:31] CB Axel: Wow!
[13:31] herman Bergson: so yes....for some years indeed
[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): wow
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): wow
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): OMG!!!
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): omg
[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): time flies
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and i have not graduated  yet!!!!!
[13:32] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma...we grow old in the meantime too ^_^
[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): me either Gemma :(
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the first year you kept talking about a test
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): never gave it
[13:33] herman Bergson: You made is to Assistent Professor nevertheless :-))
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I should have mentioned that in the interview
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i was interviewed for our newspaper
[13:33] herman Bergson: You are too modest Gemma :-)
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): mentioned teh class too
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate):
[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I have read it
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i like the interview
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): she is good at interviewing
[13:34] herman Bergson: Oh wow..I missed that one Gemma !
[13:34] herman Bergson whispers: thnx!
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah read the paper
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): she left out a lot
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): left out the info about qwark we talked about
[13:35] CB Axel: I really should read that paper more often.
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): tooo bad
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes cb
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i can give you a paper to put on your table or chair to click
[13:35] herman Bergson: Yes..Qwark deserved to be mentioned....
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh well
[13:37] herman Bergson: We are also getting close to our summer break :-)
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah when??
[13:37] herman Bergson: Will be two or three more lectures, I think to conclude this project
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): cant believe it is June
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i lost over a month
[13:38] herman Bergson: Me neither Gemma....but it is...
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:38] herman Bergson: Welll let's dismiss class then...thank you all and mov eon to the next lecture ^_^
[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): so before summer we all will know what the meaning of life is:)
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:39] herman Bergson: Oh yes Beertje :-)
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:39] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): all fun things we are going to do
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats the meaning of life
[13:39] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you herman and class :-)
[13:39] herman Bergson: You come close Bejiita :-))
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats as close i can get
[13:41] CB Axel: I'll see you all Thursday.
[13:41] CB Axel: Bye
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu then
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): tuesday

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

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