Sunday, January 14, 2018

693: An interesting elaboration...

In the discussion after our previous lecture there were mentioned a few things which may be of interest for our quest for the Self.
One was Sheldrake, who we may skip - nothing lost there -  and the other was, as I know now Sarah Durston, who is one of the authors of  "Universe, Life and Everything"
You can download it for free at :
The most interesting of this book for me is, that it repeats a lot of ideas, which I already have discussed with you through the past ten years.
Yet, it is good to notice that we are perfectly in sync with the contemporary philosophy of science and philosophy of mind.
Let me offer you some quotes, in which you definitely may recognize ideas we have discussed here already.
-QUOTE- Why would we need a new world view? The only possible reason is if the old one is failing,
and let’s be realistic: our classic, Newtonian, deterministic view of reality has been hugely successful. 

It has brought us modern science. It brought us the industrial revolution. It has revolutionised technology, medicine, agriculture, all aspects of our world. 
Why would we critique it? First of all, our thinking is so rooted in this paradigm that we have forgotten that it is a paradigm, a way of viewing the world, and not fact.
(...)  One of the most obvious problems with our current paradigm is that it cannot account for consciousness. 
Matter, including, biological, living matter, is built up of molecules and atoms, where the latter are the building blocks for the former. 
Yet these building blocks are inanimate and there is no reason in science that certain configurations of them would acquire awareness, consciousness, or indeed be alive.
(...) Well, there is no definitive evidence that we are our brains. There is a correlation between what your brain does and what you experience. 
But it is a huge assumption that what the brain is doing is causal to what you experience. 
And not only that it is causal to your experience of who you are and how you are, but also to the experience of seeing the teapot on the table. 
I see the teapot because of what my brain is doing. There is some truth to that of course, because if my brain were to stop working right now I would no longer be able to see the teapot. 
But there is this assumption that there is an objective external reality, a 3D world with a teapot in it that I also walk around in, 
and that when I see the teapot it is a somehow realistic rendition of it. All those sorts of assumptions..... -END QUOTE-
As you see....all kinds of things I am telling you already for years in this class. So you may believe that I was full of expectations.
Authors of such a book, referring to a revision of our paragiam....well, I always assume that they are smarter than I am. My mind was cheering and yelling "Show me the goodies!"
Elas, there weren't. The book is yet an interesting report of conversations with a number of smart people,
but the "goodies" showed to be a flirt with Quantum Physics. If I were mean, I would always refer to quantum physics if you have no real answer.
The funny thing with quantum physics is, that, as far as I get it, small particles do not behave in the classic deterministic ways like decent atoms, but also kind of unpredictable, statistically intepretable only.
For the rest, the basic ideas are typical Kantian and with a touch of panpsychism, what we already have discussed with Spinoza(1632 - 1677).
Most disappointing statement I ran into at the end of the book: 
-QUOTE- "Clearly the ideas discussed in this book are not well worked out, and in no way scientifically proven." -END QUOTE -
So, I guess we still have to figure out ourselves what consciousness and our Self is. I have no problem with that.
Thank you again or your attention... ^_^

The Discussion

[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): downloaded  but that quote could be applied to all the philosophies we have ever talked aobut!!
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): in my view
[13:21] herman Bergson: I allow myself to disagree somewhat with you Gemma...
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok
[13:21] Ciska Riverstone: yes.. I only read the headlines so far and they make the point about language too...
[13:21] herman Bergson: for this is a very relativistic position
[13:22] Ladyy Haven (ladyy.haven) is online.
[13:22] herman Bergson: I think that the reductionist-materialistic  view on our reality is an answer to many questions....
[13:23] herman Bergson: But true.....not to all questions
[13:24] herman Bergson: This view has led to  a lot of scientific insights
[13:24] Ciska Riverstone: the problem is that it does not help us in terms of quality
[13:24] Ciska Riverstone: life quality that is
[13:24] Ciska Riverstone: if u reduce everything to materialistic viewpoints
[13:24] Ciska Riverstone: the quality in life is degenerating
[13:24] Dien (djdien.bailey) is offline.
[13:24] Ciska Riverstone: hats what we are seeing these days
[13:24] herman Bergson: No, indeed, but a panpsychism doesnt answer anything at all neither
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): you think?
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): for ciska that is
[13:25] herman Bergson: The quality of life has improved tremendously, I would say,  Ciska
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): me too
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not equal for all
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but in general
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess
[13:26] herman Bergson: better medicine and education, increase of number of democracies in this world.....METOO :-))
[13:26] Ciska Riverstone: no it has improved materially
[13:26] Ciska Riverstone: but not on the human need basis for values
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): medically
[13:26] herman Bergson: no no....also socially....
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:26] herman Bergson: for instance...women have more rights at least in Western countries
[13:27] herman Bergson: There are Human Rights....there was a Court in The HAgue....
[13:27] Ciska Riverstone: rights helps in the "material" world - in the molecualr one
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): even to a lesser extent and bginning in eastern countries too
[13:27] herman Bergson: war criminals were convicted
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and some still being tried too
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): from
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): african countries
[13:27] herman Bergson: I agree that therestill has to change alot in this world...but al lot already changed....
[13:28] Ciska Riverstone: yes herman but those sprang from the time when we had religion to motivate that
[13:28] Ciska Riverstone: we do not have that any longer
[13:28] herman Bergson: No slavery anymore
[13:28] Ciska Riverstone: In western societies
[13:28] Ciska Riverstone: there is a void right now
[13:28] Ciska Riverstone: which in the us
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): have to disagree even with that
[13:28] Ciska Riverstone: is filled by a slash back into religion
[13:28] herman Bergson: too :-)
[13:28] Ciska Riverstone: christian religion
[13:28] Ciska Riverstone: and in europe by nothingness
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): evangelicals ae very strong i us
[13:29] herman Bergson: All we are discussing here for instance doesnt show a void at all....on the contrary....
[13:29] Ciska Riverstone: yes thats the slash back because the void has not been filled yet
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): has happened before in history too
[13:29] herman Bergson: I even refer to articles in my newspaper which discuss matters we are discussing here
[13:29] Ciska Riverstone: well Trump happened because of the void
[13:29] Ciska Riverstone: quality of life is missing in the us
[13:29] CB Axel: I prefer the void to evangelical christians.
[13:30] Ciska Riverstone: yes cb
[13:30] Ciska Riverstone: I understand that
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:30] Ciska Riverstone: and I'm not saying
[13:30] Ciska Riverstone: let them be
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): afraid i agree comletely
[13:30] Ciska Riverstone: i'm saying there is something missing
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and i seem to be surrounded by  them
[13:30] herman Bergson: Yes me too CB....I am glad the decline of churches create this void and return creativity and philosophy of life and meaning of life to the individual
[13:31] CB Axel: Yes. Churches take away our freedom of thought.
[13:31] herman Bergson: In fact Sartre exposed this void already, that you mention Ciska
[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: yes of course
[13:32] Ciska Riverstone: all i#m saying is that this is the challenge we are standing in front of
[13:32] herman Bergson: Is there a touch of teleological thinking in your statement that there is something missing, Ciska?
[13:33] Ciska Riverstone: my focus is on life quality - if that is teleological  - so be it ,)
[13:33] herman Bergson: Oh yes.... and that challenge already started with the Enlightenment in the 17th century....
[13:33] herman Bergson: When we began to look at our world with a scientific eye
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and ditch all religious mumbo jumbo
[13:33] Ciska Riverstone: well no that just put one focus on the material wold
[13:33] Ciska Riverstone: which was good
[13:34] herman Bergson: It is like when Yuri Gagarin entered orbit for the first time and asked.....where is that god and heaven?
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ha at that time we did not have a clue of teh universe extent
[13:34] herman Bergson: I understand what you mean Ciska.....
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): now we have at least a clue
[13:35] herman Bergson: We talk about reductionism.....
[13:35] herman Bergson: and there you are quite right.....
[13:35] herman Bergson: it seems that our whole existence is reduced to the smallest particle: MONEY and PROFIT
[13:35] CB Axel: The beauty of the material world as opposed to theology is that the material world can be observed and tested.
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): true
[13:36] herman Bergson: As a human being you are only regared as a cost issue
[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): true
[13:37] herman Bergson: We dont do you feel...but....what does it cost?
[13:37] Ciska Riverstone: yes
[13:37] herman Bergson: There is your big void indeed
[13:37] Ciska Riverstone: thats a direct outcome of " I want to materialize it all so it seems controllable"
[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: and the problem is... most of the concepts we need to have a quality life - friendship love and such
[13:38] CB Axel: Yes. Trump's worth is only monetary. He is completely worthless as a human being, yet those "moral" evangelicals follow him like a puppy follows bacon.
[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: will never be materializeable
[13:38] herman Bergson: yes, I agree....and people think that  all is under control when you have the money for it
[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: consciousness neither
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): unbelievable
[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: so what materializem does is
[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: it enables people to not think
[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: but reduce
[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: thats my critique
[13:39] herman Bergson: Yes...I agree.....
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): "ok, now everyone now follows this screaming ranting gigant baby, it will surley be good then"
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i think it will not
[13:39] herman Bergson: We have to keep in mind however, that there are several ways to look at issues....
[13:40] herman Bergson: Ciska's point of view is mainly a psychological, social approach
[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: of course it is
[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: because thats whats missin
[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: g
[13:40] herman Bergson: in philosophy we just ask: WHAT is consciousness...WHAT is the self in relation to this material world
[13:41] herman Bergson: and maybe such insights might help to solve the psychological question
[13:42] herman Bergson: We have to understand what and who we are when we call ourselves huma beings
[13:42] herman Bergson: and we have to take responsibility for the answers we give
[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: do you see it working this way?
[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: I think thats an hierarchy approach which will fail
[13:43] herman Bergson: That is what man has done  through the centuries, I'd say
[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: and indeed it already does
[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: yes
[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: and that's the problem
[13:44] herman Bergson: What do you mean Ciska
[13:44] bijoux Lefevre is online.
[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: maybe we need an relational approach now
[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: instead of a material one
[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: but for a relational approach u need people to make experiences
[13:45] herman Bergson: I agree with that..yes....
[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: which they do not want to make
[13:45] herman Bergson: today there is only one religion: the belief in economic growth.....
[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): that will be a soap bubble
[13:46] herman Bergson: But slowly but steadily you see how people begin to question this neo-liberal dogma
[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: they do
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hopefully yes
[13:47] herman Bergson: so where there is time there is hope :-)
[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: but a lot are psychologically crashed and have no  tools to balance that out
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that everything is not just about hoarding money
[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: this is why we see so much madness going on
[13:47] herman Bergson: YEs I know.....
[13:48] CB Axel: Religion isn't the right tool for the job, though.
[13:48] herman Bergson: but I also have pointed out that we tend to see all problems of the world as something which happens and has to change during our lifetime.....then all is good
[13:48] CB Axel: Replacing no tool with a flawed one isn't the answer, imo.
[13:48] herman Bergson: but may changes have taken centuries
[13:49] CB Axel: That brings up another problem, Herman.
[13:49] herman Bergson: it took a hundred years to give women the right to vote....
[13:49] CB Axel: The evils in this world have taken centuries to develop, but people expect them to be eliminated in one lifetime.
[13:50] herman Bergson: those who started the fight for it never lived to enjoy it
[13:50] CB Axel: Or even one election cycle.
[13:50] herman Bergson: indeed CB
[13:50] herman Bergson: Trump is not an incident, but the result of events that already materialized before he was born....
[13:51] herman Bergson: he is the result
[13:51] herman Bergson: maybe he is the end of this process of materialistic greed and super wealth
[13:52] herman Bergson: who knows
[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): most of the time there is someone standing up who is worse
[13:52] herman Bergson: yes but it is not an individual.....
[13:53] herman Bergson: like in Hitler's is millions of voters and supporters
[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): sadley enough
[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): andn dutarte in the philippines
[13:53] herman Bergson: Like you said...these evangelicals follow T. like puppies
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): history repeats itself, luckily Trump have not managed to do much damage yet
[13:53] herman Bergson: yes....
[13:55] herman Bergson: As you may notice...I still feel optimistic about mankind :-))
[13:55] Ciska Riverstone: well psychologically he has in setting this example
[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes with all this i do too
[13:55] Ciska Riverstone: its a mess that someone like that can be successful in our societies
[13:55] Ciska Riverstone: someone who oviously lies all the time
[13:55] herman Bergson: but it is also a wake-up call Ciska....
[13:55] Ciska Riverstone: and gets trhoguh with this
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): this global nuclear war he will hopefully not suceed starting, its hopefully just BS
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but scary BS nontheless
[13:55] Ciska Riverstone: thats a huge damage
[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): every 10 minutes !
[13:56] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what is BS?
[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): bullshit
[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bull shit
[13:56] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ah:)
[13:56] herman Bergson: I think it is.....
[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): makes one feel better to say it
[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:56] herman Bergson: to begin with there does not exist such a red button
[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): thanks goodness
[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): still ranting about nuclear bombs that can wipe out the entire planet like a 5 year old in a sandbox
[13:57] herman Bergson: and believe me.....T. is not the one and only person who can say.....send the missles....
[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): feels not really safe, luckily it is not just to push a button as he makes it sound like
[13:57] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ture, but he knows the code
[13:57] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): true
[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed though he have the authourity to do it
[13:58] herman Bergson: Those codes do only order others do do certain things....
[13:58] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it takes more than him to get ot going
[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:58] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so some stronger mind will probably prevail
[13:58] herman Bergson: and believe me...when I can think of this.....important people already have discussed the situation when T.  planns to use these codes and issue orders....
[13:58] herman Bergson: generals are also human beings with families
[13:59] derk Koenkamp is offline.
[13:59] herman Bergson: and everybody knows T. is a moron and quote his staff :-))
[13:59] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the thing is if anyone would do this the entire planet will probably die
[13:59] CB Axel: He may not push a physical button to start it all, but he may push Kim's psychological buttons.
[13:59] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): better to bury these idiotic domsday weeapons
[14:00] CB Axel: If Kim fires missiles, I can only hope that one lands in Washington, DC.
[14:00] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): omg
[14:00] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): OMG!!!
[14:00] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): cb
[14:00] herman Bergson: This Kim person is in the same position as Mr. T. I would say, CB
[14:00] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): million innocent people live there
[14:00] CB Axel: Yes, with fewer people to stop him.
[14:00] herman Bergson: I hope not
[14:01] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): will read teh book i downloaded
[14:01] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i downloaded it too
[14:01] herman Bergson: it has interesting parts Gemma.....
[14:01] herman Bergson: my only problem with it is that it does not deliver what it suggests
[14:02] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah well
[14:02] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ill check it as well
[14:02] herman Bergson: but still worth reading
[14:02] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): keeps me from the pub:)
[14:02] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[14:02] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or coffee shop?
[14:02] CB Axel: I read in the pub. °͜°
[14:02] herman Bergson: The interesting point is that our physics paradigm does not explain everything....
[14:02] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we have great coffee shops here
[14:02] bergfrau Apfelbaum: that was sooo very interesting again! ty herman&Class :-)) and  Long live the love
[14:03] bergfrau Apfelbaum: and SL
[14:03] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[14:03] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[14:03] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i heard
[14:03] bergfrau Apfelbaum: :-)
[14:03] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok
[14:03] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[14:03] herman Bergson: Yes Bergie
[14:03] herman Bergson: \o/
[14:03] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): may make it tuesday will see if i get out early enough
[14:03] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[14:03] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[14:03] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu then
[14:03] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman
[14:03] Ciska Riverstone: thanx everyone
[14:03] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[14:03] herman Bergson: We'll look out for you Gemma :-)
[14:04] herman Bergson: Thank you all for this interesting meeting again....
[14:04] herman Bergson: Class dismissed :-))
[14:04] CB Axel: So long, everyone. See you Tuesday. °͜°
[14:04] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aa
[14:04] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): w do

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