Thursday, January 25, 2018

696: Again we made the newspaper.......

If you want to know whether we are up to date with the subjects we address here, just listen to the following. It is from my newspaper of last Saturday.
- QUOTE - Is man good by nature? Or are we wild savages and is our aggression only contained under a thin layer of cultural varnish? 
It seems to be a nineteenth century question that has long since been answered by modern biology, but the opposite is true. 
The jury is still in deliberation, not in the least because the suspect has shown contradictory behavior. 
Sometimes man is more violent than any animal, but usually we know very well how to keep the sweet peace. 
For both visions examples can be found in nature. Advocates of the noble savage point at the bonobo, a primate that rarely quarrels. 
That is our natural nature, they argue, the violence has crept into it through civilization, because we built settlements, acquired property and developed weapons. 
No, says the other camp, look at the baboon or the chimpanzee. 
They have a tight hierarchy based on violence and in their conflicts they regularly kill members of the group. That is how we are - only social agreements keep us in line. - END QUOTE -
Almost the same as our Hobbes - Rousseau story. 
The reason for the newspaper text was an article on a publication of the anthropologist / primatologist Richard Wrangham in the American science magazine Pnas.
Richard Walter Wrangham (born 1948) is a British scientist. Following his years on the faculty of the University of Michigan, 
he became the Ruth Moore Professor of Biological Anthropology at Harvard University and his research group is now part of the newly established Department of Human Evolutionary Biology.
His main point in the article is, that the aggressiveness in man is treated one - dimensionally,
while according to Wrangham there are two dimensions: there is PROACTIVE  and REACTIVE aggression.
Catching a prey or killing an opponent or enemy are examples of proactive aggression. The perpetrator acts cold-blooded and takes as little risk as possible.
The situation is different when you feel threatened or frustrated. Then an aggressor is angry and excited and kicks and slaps around without asking himself, if this is wise and reasonable.
Wrangham claims that aggression is in the genen of homo sapiens, but that by "self-domestication" during his evolution he has learnt to control himself.
The hypothesis, because it isn't more, sounds attractive, but there is no proof. The criticism of Wrangham is, 
that he straightforward assumes, that  that homo sapiens by nature is an aggressive individual.
Frans de Waal, that other famous primatologist, wonders, why the aggressive Chimp is always the leading character 
and why the peaceful Bonobo, as well as the female genes in general are constantly kept out of sight in this debate.
The conclusion is that Hobbes and Rousseau were both right or wrong. In other words, it is 2018 and we still have no clue 
whether our evolutionary ancestors used to live in peace with each other or loved to smash each others skulls as their basic entertainment.
Thank you for your attention.... ^_^

The Discussion

[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I think personality might come into play a bit here as well as external influences
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): for example i cant feel myself having anything of that in me
[13:20] herman Bergson: Yes....
[13:21] herman Bergson: and what strikes me all the time is that they time and again want to come up with a theory that usus one feature only as the explaining one
[13:21] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): are men afraid to show their female side?..Afraid not to be manly?
[13:21] herman Bergson: Either we are aggressive OR we are peaceful
[13:22] herman Bergson: why can't we be both...
[13:22] herman Bergson: And as Beertje seems to this theory creating male dominated? :-)
[13:22] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and the influence of all the aggressive movies and games
[13:23] CB Axel: We're peaceful towards our own groups and violent toward anyone we view as different.
[13:23] herman Bergson: At least that is a general observation indeed CB
[13:24] herman Bergson: Maybe from an evolutionary perspective, because we want to defend our food and women
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): much I think are based on norms, males should not cry, they should be macho ect ect not show weakness bla bla
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and thus violence is a result of them trying to live up to this strange norm
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): which i think is not natural at all
[13:25] herman Bergson: so violent behavior is caused by culture...?!
[13:25] CB Axel: Women need to stop expecting men to be our protectors. Most violence against women come from male members of their own group.
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a big bit i think is caused by this indeed
[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): maybe to ventilate the stress
[13:26] CB Axel: I think you're probably right to a certain extent, Bejiita.
[13:26] CB Axel: I think there are other factors involved, too.
[13:26] CB Axel: Maybe
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): there are other factors too i guess
[13:27] herman Bergson: And of course that ever presence of religions, belief systems
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:27] herman Bergson: religious or political...
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a combination of many things
[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and the social ladder
[13:28] Ciska Riverstone: mmmh - so in general - the existence of expectations is the root?
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but which are natural and wich are not so to say
[[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): is poverty a reason for violence?
[13:29] herman Bergson: never the root, Ciska, but one of the possible roots, I'd say
[13:29] CB Axel: In the past physical strength was needed to protect the family and to do many jobs. Men had to be the protectors and providers then.
[13:29] herman Bergson: History shows it is Beertje
[13:29] CB Axel: Things have changed, but I'm not sure that what is expected of men has changed.
[13:30] CB Axel: They still have to be strong, decisive, and in charge.
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed, the old norms still holds
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): have not changed much
[13:30] herman Bergson: To be  a winner or a looser is still a main feature of the American dream, I'd say
[13:30] CB Axel: Actually, they DON'T have to be all that. We just act like they must.
[13:30] Ciska Riverstone: well changed must be lived - women hat to live theirs too
[13:30] Ciska Riverstone: their change
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:30] Ciska Riverstone: by going to work
[13:30] CB Axel: Women have to stop demanding that of men, and men have to let women take over some of the old roles.
[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: and voicing their truths.
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): things have to change for sure
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oki, i better get back to the reparty i came from before it ends
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lot going on today
[13:32] CB Axel: Women don't need men to provide for them or protect them any more. Men have to stop acting like women do need them and need to start being someone women want to have in their lives.
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:32] CB Axel: Being wanted but not needed.
[13:32] herman Bergson: I think it is all because of our inclination of binary thinking....
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa indeed
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): think this binary thing play a great role as well
[13:32] herman Bergson: The US / THEM thinking....
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nothing in between
[13:33] herman Bergson: Yes
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oki gotta run
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but cu next time
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:33] CB Axel: Aw. Bye, Bejiita.
[13:33] herman Bergson: Ok Bejiita....have fun :-)
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:34] herman Bergson: Guess we'll never know this basic feature of our Self....
[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): the us/them thinking , wasn't that always the case?
[13:34] herman Bergson: It was Beertje
[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): nothing has changed
[13:35] herman Bergson: You believe or you are an atheist.....
[13:35] herman Bergson: no...this method of thinking is and has been always popular
[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): everyone believes something..even an atheist
[13:36] Ciska Riverstone: yeppje Beertje
[13:36] herman Bergson: I disagree Beertje....
[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): o?
[13:36] herman Bergson: It is a too easy use of the word "belief"
[13:37] herman Bergson: If you want to start such a debate you first need to define "to believe"
[13:37] herman Bergson: for instance....religious vs. not religious
[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i don't want to start a debate..
[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it was just a thought
[13:38] herman Bergson: Yes I know...I only point at the fact that it is a loose statement.....
[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: no I disagree there
[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: belief is the absence of proven knowledge
[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: and it applies to all kinds of states
[13:39] herman Bergson: ok Ciska :-)
[13:39] herman Bergson: That is a way to define belief....
[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: for example to the misinformed one too
[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: and as everyone has field where they cannot know things
[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: we all believe
[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: atheists too
[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: they just do not admit it
[13:40] herman Bergson: but when you look at science, which claims to be knowledge, we have to conclude that all this knowledge is based on assumptions about reality....
[13:40] herman Bergson: Take for instance the Big Bang theory.....
[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: of course - so there are a lot of beliefs there too
[13:40] herman Bergson: only base on assumptions
[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: economy is based on assuptions
[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: assumptions
[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: and we see where that leads us
[13:41] herman Bergson: whole neoliberalism is based on an assumption.....
[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: gender issues are based on assumptions
[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: so
[13:41] herman Bergson: the belief in the self regulating market......
[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: there is a lot of belief out there
[13:42] CB Axel: Science is based on assumptions that can be tested.
[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: not all cb
[13:42] herman Bergson: In fact  we only live by our believes about reality....
[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: yes
[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: even atheists
[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: so the statement u started herman
[13:43] herman Bergson: can deduce hypotheses from assumptions and you can test them indeed
[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: is just not true
[13:43] herman Bergson: as I said...define "belief"
[13:44] herman Bergson: if you define it as assumptions about reality everyone you may call a believer....
[13:44] herman Bergson: but that is a trivial conclusion, I'd say
[13:45] herman Bergson: It becomes only questionable when you can not test deductions that are deduced from your assumptions
[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: so to take a mindset and just condemn it because it uses assumption just as anything  else is not trivial`?
[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: for me thats the same level of triviality
[13:45] herman Bergson: I am sorry...I don't get your point Ciska
[13:46] CB Axel: I don't condemn anyone's beliefs. I just don't want them to dictate how I should act based on their beliefs.
[13:46] CB Axel: Go ahead and believe in a god. I have not seen proof of a god, so I don't believe.
[13:46] CB Axel: If someone can prove to me the existence of a god, I'll change my mind.
[13:46] herman Bergson: That is what I mean by deducing testable  hypotheses from assumptions
[13:47] herman Bergson: I agree CB
[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: no one need to believe in god - thats an individual thing
[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: no one needs to believe in economics - thats an individual thing too
[13:48] herman Bergson: not in an epistemological sense....
[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: the later has just more influence on how we live
[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: in a society which does
[13:48] CB Axel: Tell that to people in the US who want to make laws that violate my rights by imposing their beliefs on me.
[13:49] Ciska Riverstone: yes - they already did that and called it economy CB - without a god
[13:49] herman Bergson smiles
[13:49] herman Bergson: Indeed Ciska :-)
[13:49] Ciska Riverstone: so now the god people try the same thing
[13:49] Ciska Riverstone: of course u are pissed by that
[13:49] Ciska Riverstone: I totally get that
[13:50] herman Bergson: What do you mean?
[13:50] herman Bergson: Which people?
[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what do they want you to do CB?
[13:50] CB Axel: Not me personally, but I see them trying to control other people.
[13:50] Ciska Riverstone: but the truth is - u could be as much pissed by the economy rules which were established and now hinder people from getting the health insurance they need if they do not have certain jobs
[13:50] CB Axel: People who want to marry whomever they love.
[13:51] CB Axel: People who don't want children.
[13:51] herman Bergson: Do you think of debates on abortion or euthanasia or homosexuality and marriage and so on?
[13:51] CB Axel: I wish every unwanted baby born in the US was left on an anti-abortionist's doorstep.
[13:51] CB Axel: Yes, Herman. Exactly those things.
[13:52] Ciska Riverstone: CB I  totally get that - but without religion - there are people too having such ideas and boding over those - GOD is just a symbol to put that under
[13:52] herman Bergson: Still a long way to go......
[13:53] Ciska Riverstone: I am not pro Religion should dictate a state things - not at all
[13:53] Ciska Riverstone: I am just pro seeing things as they are
[13:53] CB Axel: I don't see what God has to do with the economy, other than people using God as a reason to screw over other people.
[13:53] Ciska Riverstone: and beliefs are beliefs
[13:53] herman Bergson: As I said is any  ideology that imposes its will on others
[13:54] Ciska Riverstone: o - the churches who promote that promote specific economy goals too
[13:54] Ciska Riverstone: they are highly political in the US
[13:54] Ciska Riverstone: I totally see that.
[13:55] Ciska Riverstone: I just don't want the same mistakes to happen in the future with different labels
[13:55] Ciska Riverstone: then we had in the past with the label religion
[13:55] Ciska Riverstone: if we want to change it does not help to repeat the same system with another name
[13:55] herman Bergson: Tell that Mr.Twitter in the White hOuse :-)))
[13:55] Ciska Riverstone: hehhe
[13:55] Ciska Riverstone: well
[13:56] Ciska Riverstone: he makes his reality
[13:56] Ciska Riverstone: in a way he is a believer
[13:56] CB Axel: He is his own god.
[13:56] Ciska Riverstone: yes
[13:56] herman Bergson: Guess we saved the world enough again for today :-))
[13:57] Ciska Riverstone: hehehe
[13:57] CB Axel: LOL
[13:57] herman Bergson: SO time to dismiss this class :-)
[13:57] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i believe it's time to go to sleep
[13:57] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.
[13:57] herman Bergson: Indeed Beertje
[13:57] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)
[13:57] CB Axel: Goede nacht
[13:57] CB Axel: Y'all
[13:57] herman Bergson: Yoiur place or my place?
[13:57] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :) welterusten CB
[13:58] herman Bergson: Bye CB
[13:58] CB Axel: See you all, Thursday.
[13:58] Ciska Riverstone: cu cb take care
[13:58] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i sleep in my place
[13:58] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :))
[13:58] Ciska Riverstone: welterusten Beertje
[13:58] herman Bergson smiles
[13:58] Ciska Riverstone: and welterusten herman
[13:58] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): welterusten Ciska
[13:58] herman Bergson: ok...
[13:58] herman Bergson: then I'll sleep at my place :-)
[13:58] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)))

[13:59] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): goodnight, welterusten, Gute Nacht

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