Thursday, November 15, 2018

744: What has happened to social democratic thought...?

The period 1920 - 1929 was a booming time. Mass production and assembly line production created work and wealth.
However, according to Marx's theory, capitalism would be destroyed by its own contradictions. 
The First World War and the subsequent famine, unemployment and running inflation formed, according to countless people, proof of that theory. 
But it soon became clear that communism did not arise on the ruins, but fascism. 
Maybe it is the same process, but after the financial crisis of 2008 we have seen the rise of nationalist, right-wing parties in Europe.
We also see a collapse of social democratic parties and a move towards conservatism, where the US is the present  textbook example.
Some Marxists were in those days so disillusioned about it that they lost their faith in theory. 
Others held on to it despite everything. There were also people who chose a third way. 
They wanted to remain faithful to Marxism, but saw that the theory needed to be adapted to remain credible. 
This group gathered in the "Institut für Sozialforschung"  (Institute for Social Research) in Frankfurt in the late 1920s 
and became known as the Frankfurter Schule (School). Because of the rise of Nazism, the institute was short-lived, but the name remained.
The great names of the Frankfurter Schule were Theodor Adorno (1903 -1969), Max Horkheimer (1895 - 1973), Herbert Marcuse (1898 - 1979) and Jürgen Habermas (1929 - ).
When I was a student in the early 70's those were big names for us. You HAD to read their books. And of course I have Marcuse's "One dimensional man"  here on my desk.
But what happened to social democratic ideals? In stead of a collapsing capitalism, communism collapsed. Pretty ironic, I'd say.
When you look at the socialist party in the Netherlands, its history is dramatic. In 1977 it had 53 seats in parliament 
In 2012 it was reduced to 38 and in the latest elections they only got 9 seats! Just nine!
You begin to wonder, what is going on in the world, at least in Europe and the US.
Why have we lost our motivation to support the less fortunate in our society? Why don't we want to organize healthcare for everyone?
What did we inherit in this context from the 20th century? In the US a full grown fear for terms like communism and socialism.
In Europe, at least in the 60's and 70's, social solidarity was a leading principle in politics. Today you are on your own in a neo-liberal way and depending on self-reliance.
Why don't I see references to Adorno, Horkheimer or Marcuse anymore in political debates?
Time to have a closer look at their view on society......and maybe save some of our inheritance.
Thank you for your attention again :-)

The Discussion
[13:13] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.
[13:14] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[13:14] herman Bergson: So, where have all social democratic values gone?
[13:14] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): maybe the internet has a great influence on it?
[13:15] herman Bergson: In what way, Beertje?
[13:15] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i don't know is strange
[13:15] CB Axel: If you ask Americans if they like "Obama Care" most will say yes. If you ask if they want social security, they say yes. But if you ask them if they're socialist, they'll say no, of course not.
[13:15] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): everybody has a meaning
[13:15] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): a different one
[13:15] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well something have happened for sure and in the wrong direction
[13:16] herman Bergson: Americans are kind of allergic to words like seems :-)
[13:16] CB Axel nods
[13:16] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why?
[13:16] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it is true
[13:16] CB Axel: They equate socialism with communism.
[13:16] CB Axel: And communists are evil. °͜°
[13:16] herman Bergson: I have no idea, Beertje
[13:16] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): believe that communism is socialism yes
[13:16] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:16] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that comes from the 20's too
[13:16] herman Bergson: pretty silly :-)
[13:17] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): communism party was active back in the early 2oth century in usa
[13:17] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): nothing much but active
[13:17] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): into the 40's
[13:17] herman Bergson: Ahh...and then you got McCarthy...
[13:17] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): then Joseph McCarthy!!!!!!
[13:17] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:17] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): a monster if there was one
[13:17] herman Bergson: Total disaster
[13:18] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): destroyed lives
[13:18] herman Bergson: yes...
[13:18] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): especially celebrities
[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ow
[13:18] CB Axel: It's always seemed to me that communism is the Soviet Union failed because the people in charge got greedy.
[13:18] herman Bergson: But look at the NETHERLANDS....
[13:18] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and you know that one of his assistants is active in the trump administrataion today???
[13:18] CB Axel: It was like in Animal Farm: All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others.
[13:19] herman Bergson: Yes CB
[13:19] herman Bergson: But I wonder why the Soviet Union collapsed.....
[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): thinks there were many reasons
[13:19] CB Axel: I'm not sure. I don't know much about economics, really.
[13:20] herman Bergson: The fall of the Berlin wall was actually due to miscommunication, if I am correct
[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Pope John Paul out of Poland
[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and what would he say of the Poland of today
[13:21] herman Bergson: But the fact is...Marx was wrong....communism collapsed...not capitalism
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:21] CB Axel: It's my feeling that communism collapsed for the same reason capitalism seems to be collapsing. People are greedy bastards and don't care about anyone but themselves.
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes capitalism still rules strong
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): too strong
[13:21] Ciska Riverstone: (o there is a nice "pre Mauerfall film right now which explains the atmosphere pretty good - title: Baloon)
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well look at Amazon
[13:21] herman Bergson: Yet I am very interested in the ideas of the Frankfurter Schule.....
[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): they re building a new base in NY and getting loads of tax breaks
[13:22] CB Axel: Doesn't capitalism rely on people producing a product that people want to buy? Now it seems that the people doing well don't do anything but move other people's money around.
[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): they should never get
[13:22] CB Axel: The bankers and the Wall Street types.
[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): capitalism is alive and strong
[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): too strong i think
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:22] herman Bergson: there are two worlds...
[13:23] CB Axel: Captialists are too strong, not capitalism. °͜°
[13:23] herman Bergson: on the one hand you have the real economy where value is produced....
[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and now some are beginning here to understand the last BIG tax break was for them
[13:23] herman Bergson: and on the other hand you have the financial market where money is pushed around to make money with money
[13:23] CB Axel: Right, Herman.
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I use to say, before banks were for us, today we are for the banks
[13:24] CB Axel nods
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): to suck out
[13:25] CB Axel: But big companies like Amazon, although they do produce a product, are not much better than the financial people.
[13:25] herman Bergson: What do you mean with 'tax break' Gemma?
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we have looked at so many different 20th century warnings it looks like we have not really learned a lot
[13:25] herman Bergson: Trumps tax reduction?
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): trump passed it yes
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): break it was called
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): all for the middle class
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right
[13:25] herman Bergson: ok
[13:25] CB Axel: Yes. Trumps tax break went to people who don't need a break.
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): exactly
[13:26] herman Bergson: But it increases the national debts immensely
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): very very true
[13:26] herman Bergson: so eventually you gonna pay for it
[13:26] Lente (lentelies.anatine) is offline.
[13:26] Ciska Riverstone: the problem is that value and money are no longer connected on the financial markets
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and then the democrats will HAVE tp raise taxes to adjust it and will get blame
[13:26] CB Axel: Don't worry, Herman. The government will fix that by taking more money from the people who work at real jobs and need the tax break.
[13:26] herman Bergson: what do you mean by that Ciska?
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:27] CB Axel: True, Ciska.
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Macron spoke well of the ills of our country here
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): last week
[13:27] Ciska Riverstone: If you have a corporation which acts wolrdwide -this one will either overpay or underpay serices  - depending on where they need a deficit or a profit to be not taxed
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): without mentioning it
[13:27] Ciska Riverstone: its an easy book-keeper trick
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:28] Ciska Riverstone: sometimes you only have bills without the exchange of goods
[13:28] Ciska Riverstone: just to make the figures right
[13:28] herman Bergson: I see
[13:28] Ciska Riverstone: and that is almost untraceable
[13:28] Ciska Riverstone: you just run enough "daughter companies"
[13:29] Ciska Riverstone: who pretend to offer the good for cheaper or for more
[13:29] Ciska Riverstone: and play the figures how you want to have them
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its basically money laundering
[13:29] herman Bergson: The Netherlands is famous for such PO Box offices
[13:29] Ciska Riverstone: the big corporations push money around where they need it
[13:29] Ciska Riverstone: for example
[13:29] herman Bergson: Indeed
[13:29] Ciska Riverstone: to get fundings from the Netherlands
[13:30] Ciska Riverstone: for a special scientific project
[13:30] Ciska Riverstone: which then fails
[13:30] Ciska Riverstone: and basically is done in the usa
[13:30] Ciska Riverstone: to make a deficit there
[13:30] Ciska Riverstone: which brings down the taxes there
[13:30] Ciska Riverstone: in an European country they however get paid for the same projet
[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: pretending they do the research there
[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: stuff like that
[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: there are many "declarations" like that
[13:31] CB Axel nods
[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: same thing with value of buildings
[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: as long as you do not go on the market with them
[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: they might overvalued
[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: or undervalued
[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: but they still make a big part of your books
[13:31] herman Bergson: yes...
[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: which determine if you pay tax or not
[13:32] Ciska Riverstone: and if you are a big corporation
[13:32] Ciska Riverstone: you just push it back and forth
[13:32] Ciska Riverstone: if you need a higher value
[13:32] Ciska Riverstone: and right now the market is good
[13:32] Ciska Riverstone: you announce to maybe sell it
[13:32] Ciska Riverstone: get offers
[13:32] Ciska Riverstone: and push that into your balance
[13:32] herman Bergson: That is why Trump does want to have his tax papers public
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i just wonder when or if this attitude all over the world will swing in the opposite direction
[13:32] CB Axel: Exactly
[13:33] Ciska Riverstone: yes of course
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or if it will come to war
[13:33] Ciska Riverstone: because value and money is totally unconnected any longer
[13:33] Ciska Riverstone: same thing when you work somewhere
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats by al means true
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the new House of Reps will be investigating manyu many things about trump
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): one good thing
[13:33] Ciska Riverstone: no one can tell you what your performance is really worth
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and may be ask for tax records
[13:34] Ciska Riverstone: my prognose is
[13:34] Ciska Riverstone: that at the end of the day.. .latest in 100 years
[13:34] Ciska Riverstone: we start to realize that math is a relational thing ... and that figures while being useful to describe reality
[13:35] Ciska Riverstone: are not really working in describing value  for humans in general
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bergies sends regards... has another event
[13:35] Ciska Riverstone: there is  second factor
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): rezz day for friend
[13:35] Ciska Riverstone: and we need to get that one in
[13:35] herman Bergson: Interesting point of view Ciska
[13:36] herman Bergson: Has been mentioned here several times by me.....
[13:36] herman Bergson: the mystical relation between reality and math.....the wondering why it works
[13:37] Ciska Riverstone: well it can be used to describe object reality
[13:37] herman Bergson: Our reality is quantifiable....
[13:37] Ciska Riverstone: but not subject reality
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): math = language of the nature
[13:37] Ciska Riverstone: and not subject-object reality
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): basically
[13:37] herman Bergson: indeed...
[13:37] CB Axel: "Reality, what a concept." - Robin Williams
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): for ex we see fractals in things like leafs and seashells
[13:37] Ciska Riverstone: the difference between a subject and an object is
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): :-)
[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: an object  - as far as we know - has no experience
[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: we try to give it one
[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: computers
[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: artificial intelligence
[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: but we do not succeed so far.
[13:38] herman Bergson: artificial intelligence is so limited
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its because of this fact that math is the language of nature that computers are able to describe things like images sound ect
[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: becaue experience is missing yes
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cause everything can be made into numbers
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): feelings are missing
[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: Bejiita - math just describes relational stuff between objects
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm well thats true
[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: thats thrilling
[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: because we can do a lot with it
[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: like forming objects in different ways
[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: but it cannot describe experience.
[13:40] herman Bergson: But it doesnt apply to hamen beings
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but u cant represent feelings with numbers, its chemistry
[13:40] herman Bergson: We are not quantifiable.....or only in a crude way by statuistics
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats the difference i think,
[13:40] CB Axel: I'm going to have to think about experience and what that means.
[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: well u can reduce us to our object status- thats whats happening a lot these days
[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: but thats not all humans are.
[13:41] CB Axel: I felt like an object at my job. So I know what you mean.
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed often we are reduced to human = some number = a cost
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sadly
[13:41] herman Bergson: indeed Bejiita
[13:41] herman Bergson: and that brings us back to the core question of today....
[13:42] herman Bergson: where are all those social democratic values gone to?
[13:42] CB Axel: $
[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: the reaction to the reduction to objects is  fear, destructiveness and agression.
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): down the black hole of cash i guess
[13:42] herman Bergson: Why is neoliberalism and self-reliance so dominant these day?
[13:43] CB Axel: Because we can't count on others to help us out.
[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: well from my point of view partly due to emancipation
[13:43] herman Bergson: extreme individualism?
[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: (feminism)
[13:43] CB Axel: Although, the people affected by the fires in California are learning that there are people who will help them.
[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: yes cb - in truth we do react socially when things get worse
[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: hats why after a war people do no longer ask which party you are on
[13:44] herman Bergson: We really need to look into what Adorno, Horkheimer and Marcuse had to tell us......
[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: its cynical but thats the sad truth
[13:44] CB Axel: Having women being able to take care of themselves without relying on a man who may dump them at any time without warning ruined socialism?
[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: not ruind CB
[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: it broke the male hierarchy
[13:45] CB Axel: Yay!
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:45] CB Axel: Down with the male hierarchy!!
[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: heheh I agree
[13:45] CB Axel: °͜°
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): omg
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): OMG!!!
[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: it was nescessary
[13:45] herman Bergson: Ladies...ladies...please :-)))
[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: still its difficult
[13:45] CB Axel: I couldn't agree more.
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): heheheh
[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)
[13:45] herman Bergson: My goodness...a revolution in class even!
[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: it plays a role in whats happening now
[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: heheheh
[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: noo
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): nto the first time
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but indeed that is true, why should we dominate
[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: nothing new here
[13:46] CB Axel: I'm sorry, Herman, but men have to learn how to deal with women who don't need them any more.
[13:46] CB Axel: You seem like you're able to handle it, though.
[13:46] herman Bergson: We can ignore them CB :-)
[13:46] CB Axel: You, too, Bejiita. °͜°
[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: well lots of men are happy
[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: they are just more silent
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): just hope this does not swing too far the other way
[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: then the ones who are unhappy about this
[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: but basically.... my argument is different there...
[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: its about values too
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it should be equal
[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: emancipation was successful because even if not all women "get " the scholars
[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: women did share a reality
[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): payments for a job are still not equal Bejiita
[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: where they experienced
[13:47] CB Axel: There is a song from the first Mary Poppins movie called Sister Suffragettes with the the line, "Although we adore men individually, we agree that as a group they're rather stupid." It sums up my feelings exactly. :D
[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: that social service is devalued
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we saw many strong women expressed in the women philosophers project
[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: yes there are a lot of those
[13:48] herman Bergson: True GEmma :-))
[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: but the broad success of feminism is really based on experience
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:49] CB Axel: A zombie keeps trying to get in. I guess he smelled brains here. LOL
[13:49] Ciska Riverstone: and on the devaluation of  all things social
[13:49] Ciska Riverstone: eheheh
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he is in
[13:49] herman Bergson: Indeed CB :-)
[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): on top of me
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:50] herman Bergson: Well...dinner time :-)
[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:50] Ciska Riverstone: hehehe
[13:50] CB Axel: Feminism devalued social issues?
[13:50] Ciska Riverstone: bon appetite
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed brains working hard in here
[13:50] Ciska Riverstone: no cb
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but now also indeed time to get something much
[13:50] Ciska Riverstone: feminism gave devaluated women a way out
[13:50] CB Axel: Ah, I see.
[13:50] CB Axel: we're still devalued by some.
[13:50] Ciska Riverstone: so they could leave the devaluation behind
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and then continue with my windows app  project
[13:50] Ciska Riverstone: yes
[13:50] herman Bergson: I don't think feminism took down social democratic ideals
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and some more
[13:51] Ciska Riverstone: but now we can skip it
[13:51] CB Axel: Like Trump and his kind.
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): next week
[13:51] Ciska Riverstone: at least on a personal level  ;)
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): reminder
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Thursday is USA holiday
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Thanksgiving
[13:51] CB Axel: Yeah. Time to go. See you all Thursday. °͜°
[13:51] herman Bergson: Well...guess I better dismiss class before we attract more zombies
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa ok
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok yes
[13:51] Ciska Riverstone: take care everyone
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes
[13:51] CB Axel: Not this Thursday.
[13:51] herman Bergson: Thank you all again :-)
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): heh
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu thursday then
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): has no name or ava visible
[13:51] CB Axel: Thanksgiving is on the 22nd.
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but is here
[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): welterusten allemaal
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): weird
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): then we will all smell like chicken so no detectable brain smell how hard we might think
[13:52] Ciska Riverstone: welterusten Beertje
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or turkey it is
[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bye for now
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but taste almost the same
[13:52] CB Axel: Welterusten, ya'll.
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:52] Wisdomseeker (lissena) is online.
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): bye for now
[13:52] CB Axel: See you Thursday
[13:53] Ciska Riverstone: cu tooo
[13:53] Ciska Riverstone: laters
[13:53] Ciska Riverstone: welterusten herman
[13:53] herman Bergson: very weird...there is a zombie present ...I see it on the radar, but no physical appearance here
[13:53] Ciska Riverstone: o
[13:54] herman Bergson: left
[13:54] Ciska Riverstone: thats one of these hiding scripts
[13:54] Ciska Riverstone: I know those ;)
[13:54] herman Bergson: ahh
[13:54] Ciska Riverstone: I think I have one somewhere
[13:54] herman Bergson: interesting
[13:54] Ciska Riverstone: well...

[13:54] Ciska Riverstone: you know folks in here

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