Thursday, March 7, 2019

764: The Welfare State......

During World War Two, of course, there were people who asked themselves the question " how should the world look like after the War?"
We have seen four Austrian- Hungarian exiles, who mainly focused on  the economic picture, of whom Hayek probably has had the greatest influence on our time.
He left us a strong liberalism, minimum of  government interference in the economy and no social justice by redistribution of income.
Now, let me present to you six principles, which should be the foundation of society after the war:

The first principle is that everyone should have decent housing, and for this there is a Regional Commissioner of Housing with the power to determine whether land should be used for that purpose. 
The second principle is that every child should be able to follow an education, and for this purpose the compulsory education should be up to eighteen years. 
The third principle is to guarantee a decent income for everyone. If the industry can't offer the jobs, the government should start a number of public works to create jobs.

The fourth principle is, that every employee has to have something to say about the company that he works for.
There has to be a representation of workers, managers and capital on the boards of directors of all large companies. 
The fifth principle is that everyone has the right to a certain amount of free time to participate in family life.
Therefor there has to be the five-days work week with irregular working hours to give the companies the chance to adapt to this and there have to be paid holidays. 
The sixth and last principle is the freedom of religion, the freedom of expression, and the freedom of assembly. 
If these principles were on the agenda of candidates of the presidency of the United States - maybe Bernie Sanders supports them - the air would be filled with...  \o/  SOCIALIST ! COMMUNIST!......I guess.

But the author of these principles wasn't a socialist, communist or other kind of left-wing politician.
It was William Temple in his publication "Christianity and the Social Order" in 1942 !
William Temple (1881 – 1944) was a bishop in the Church of England. He served as Bishop of Manchester, Archbishop of York and Archbishop of Canterbury (1942–44).  
He was a christian and thence he undeniably must have derived these principle from the bible.
He clearly stated that he was not against companies and he argued in detail, that 'profit' was not a dirty word for him. 
He also emphasized that he saw that planning could lead to a loss of freedom, but of some liberties he thought they were not worth it anyway.
For example, the freedom to speculate with land or the freedom to limitless accumulation of profits / money by individuals, or the freedom of exorbitant income differences in a company.
Some of Temple's ideas are actually realized in post war European politics.
Thank you for your attention again....:-)

The Discussion
[13:22] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[13:22] herman Bergson: A remarkable person and remarkable ideas for his time
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Well those ideas u took up are just what we mostly see today, its how I live and work
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and take it basically for that this is how it should be
[13:23] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita....that is what makes it so remarkable.....and so amazing that in the US this is called socialism
[13:23] herman Bergson: which is a pejorative....a bad name
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): strange that is
[13:24] herman Bergson: yes
[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what is bad about these ideas?
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but i guess its the greediness and selfishness getting the better of them there
[13:24] herman Bergson: But we miss Gemma and CB here...:-((
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaw yes
[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i can't discus about things in the us
[13:24] Ellie Edo: Herman...
[13:25] Ellie Edo: "He was a christian and thence he undeniably must have derived these principle from the bible."
[13:25] Ellie Edo: was that a comment of your own?
[13:25] herman Bergson: Yes Ellie
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): are u sure though these ideas are from the bible?
[13:25] Ellie Edo: whenever I see the world undeniably, it suggests to me that the speaker is unsure of his ground, as I think you should be with this sentence.
[13:25] herman Bergson: A logical conclusion. I'd say
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): anyway i like those ideas in general
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but also it have always been like that for me
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so its not more then logical to me
[13:26] herman Bergson: Ahh...I see :-)
[13:26] Ellie Edo: Why would you assume that? for all 6? and does it even matter ?
[13:26] herman Bergson: I am no expert on the bible, but William Temple must have else did he get his ideas from?
[13:26] Ellie Edo: Have I stumbled into a Christian gathering?
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): haha o
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): no
[13:27] herman Bergson: No no....
[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): no Ellie
[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): could it be possible that the man thought for himself?
[13:27] Ellie Edo: He could have got some from the bible, some from his own thinking, some from other places
[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): his own ideas?
[13:27] herman Bergson: The reason I mentioned it is partly because the US president of today is largely supported by traditional christians....
[13:28] Ellie Edo: Are christians forbidden to expose themselves to other sources of morality?
[13:28] herman Bergson: To be honest my opinion he got them from pure common sense and social insight :-)
[13:28] Ellie Edo: Seems more likely
[13:29] herman Bergson: I agree :-))
[13:29] Ellie Edo: multiple sources
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:29] herman Bergson: I just wanted to refer to the current contradiction in present ruling of the US
[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): a wise man when he had it from multiple sources
[13:29] Ellie Edo: people thinking is influenced by many many sources, and they may not even know what they were
[13:30] Ellie Edo: and they draw conclusions of their own
[13:30] herman Bergson: Of course, Ellie
[13:31] herman Bergson: This William Temple did too...but as a clergy have to assume at least some premises
[13:31] Ellie Edo: interesting that the wartime archbishop of Canterbury stepped forward like this
[13:31] herman Bergson: Yes...that is why I present him here.....
[13:31] Ellie Edo nods
[13:31] herman Bergson: his ideas were amazing....beyond his time almost
[13:32] herman Bergson: What we are investigating here at the moment is how the 20th century shaped our century
[13:32] Ellie Edo: ok
[13:32] Ellie Edo: i'll listen
[13:33] herman Bergson: and interesting is that there also was the debate whether the church should interfere with politics...
[13:34] herman Bergson: in the Netherlands we got political parties based on religious, protestant
[13:34] herman Bergson: other European countries have Germany....
[13:34] herman Bergson: and these social ideas of Temple were christian ideas....
[13:35] herman Bergson: and in the Netherlands a number of them are realized ...
[13:35] herman Bergson: also due to coalitions with christian based parties and liberals
[13:36] herman Bergson: Temple was very well known...
[13:36] herman Bergson: in no time 150.000 copies of his 93 pages book let were sold
[13:36] herman Bergson: in the UK
[13:37] Ellie Edo: is that a lot, for the time ?
[13:37] herman Bergson: it is
[13:37] herman Bergson: and there still is a William Temple organisation...a website
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[13:37] herman Bergson: his Christianity and the Social Order is still sold
[13:38] herman Bergson: It still inspires people, I guess
[13:38] herman Bergson: Well...European christians , I guess :-))
[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): not in the US?
[13:39] herman Bergson: I am not so sure about that Beertje ^_^
[13:39] Ellie Edo: "inspires" is such a loaded word
[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why Ellie
[13:40] Ellie Edo: "influences" is more value free
[13:40] herman Bergson: ahh...its my English Ellie...not my native speech :-)
[13:40] Ellie Edo: no
[13:40] Ellie Edo: I think you meant inspires
[13:40] herman Bergson: influences is a better term indeed to express what I mean :-)
[13:41] Ellie Edo: it includes the judgement that the influence is for a higher good
[13:41] Ellie Edo: ah
[13:41] Ellie Edo: ok
[13:41] herman Bergson: I see...
[13:42] herman Bergson: Well...when I see how present this William Temple still is on the Internet, there might be people really inspired by his ideas too ....motivated to act on them
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): need to check him up a bit more at least
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): if there is so much out there
[13:43] herman Bergson: But as an academic I should have been more value-free and use the word "influenced" :-))
[13:44] Ellie Edo: i'm nit-picking
[13:44] Ellie Edo: ignore me
[13:44] herman Bergson grins
[13:44] herman Bergson: I am teasing :-)))
[13:44] Ellie Edo laughs
[13:44] herman Bergson: I love this Ellie :-)
[13:45] herman Bergson: Thank you :-)
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:45] herman Bergson: It brings charm to our discussions :-)
[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we are used to his teasings
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well at least those similar words are not a such issue as my mixed up and similar unity commands were before
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): computers are more picky then humans for sure
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:46] Ellie Edo: they are
[13:46] Ellie Edo: so far
[13:46] herman Bergson: then stick to the humans Bejiita :-)
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least a bunch more interesting info this was
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and some stuff to look up
[13:47] herman Bergson: My pleasure Bejiita...
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): now i know the creator if the ideas i take for granted during the week anyway
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ideas
[13:47] herman Bergson: May I all thank you for your participation again....
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:47] herman Bergson: That was my amazement too, Bejiita!
[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): how long took it before people had the benefit of his ideas?
[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): oops..toolate:))
[13:48] herman Bergson: well...we have the minimum wage, social housing, compulsory education, Beertje
[13:48] Ellie Edo: too late ?
[13:48] herman Bergson: We have "ondernemingsraden"
[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): too late...discussion seemed to be over Ellie
[13:49] herman Bergson: all is in place least in my country
[13:49] Ellie Edo: ah
[13:49] Ellie Edo: it is?
[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes in mine too :)
[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): althougth it took a few decades
[13:49] herman Bergson: Means you only can live in the same country as I do, Beertje :-)))
[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ah do I???
[13:50] Ellie Edo: social housing has been steadily dismantled in the uk
[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): je bent een bovensloter geworden :)))
[13:50] herman Bergson: Brabant.....I wonder indeed :-)
[13:50] herman Bergson: lol
[13:50] herman Bergson: Sorry people...this is some Dutch fun
[13:50] Ellie Edo: well that was very interesting
[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): grins
[13:50] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....
[13:50] Ellie Edo: I learned a lot
[13:51] herman Bergson: Bovensloter.....great term!
[13:51] Ellie Edo: bye everybody
[13:51] herman Bergson: Bye Ellie
[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ( he misses my country)
[13:51] herman Bergson: Feel free to come again
[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): the south...
[13:51] Ellie Edo waves happily
[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye Ellie

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