In the 1960s a collective shift took place in different areas of thought.
The 1960s have often been described as a frivolous decade of fashionable frills, musical intoxication, sexual freedom and drug-infused nihilism,
but it was above all a decade in which more people than ever in the West sought confrontation outside a wartime or were confronted
with the fundamental dilemmas of human existence: freedom, justice, equality and mutual solidarity, with what they meant and how they could be achieved.
These existential questions were all the more urgent when you look at the political situation of the world at that time.
August 17, 1961 East-German construction workers began building the Wall in Berlin. The Cold war was a fact as was the nuclear threat.
In 1961 there were, besides in Russia, communist regimes in Eastern Germany and seven Eastern European countries,
in the Balkan states Yugoslavia and Albania, in the Asian countries China, North Korea and North Vietnam, in Cuba,
and there were large communist parties in Italy, Chile, Egypt and Mozambique.
The Soviet Union not only supplied weapons to various other countries, such as Syria, Congo and India, but also provided education and training.
Never before has the world been so strongly divided between two rival systems: on the one hand
the centralized, state-oriented and state-led communist economies, and on the other hand the free market economies of the West.
Communism looked like to be a huge threat for our values of freedom, justice, equality and mutual solidarity.
It is in that world, that people discovered the book "Road to Serfdom" (1944) written by Friedrich von Hayek, an Austrian economist.
Von Hayek wrote this book out of concern for the general view (mistakenly) in British academia that fascism was a capitalist reaction to socialism. It was written between 1940 and 1943.
The Road to Serfdom is a powerful analysis of how the use of economic planning leads to the evils of totalitarianism when economic planning replaces the markets.
A democracy is based on individual freedoms. Individuals have the freedom to make their own choices and decisions.
One of the choices and decisions regards the choice of occupation and employment.
A market allocates resources, one of which is labor, to different uses in response to market conditions.
This happens automatically through changes in wages and prices without direction from a commissar.
The market results in an efficient use of resources with output production in accordance with the preferences of consumers.
Whatever political opinion you have, but when you produce something for 10 dollars and you can sell it for 20 dollars, communist or socialist or capitalist, common sense tells you.....do it again...!
And Hayek claimed that freedom is related to private property and in that way you increase your private property and thus your freedom.
And in way he is right...We get freedom from worries about obtaining resources and freedom to do whatever we like, when we make a profit.
We really inherited this from the 20th century, but also economy has become the new religion. What is good? That what is good for economy.......God = Free market.
Thank you for your attention again ..:-)
The Discussion
[13:23] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[13:23] th3runner: Thanks Herman
[13:23] herman Bergson: The floor is yours...^_^
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): GOD IS IN THE TV!
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol
[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) whispers: sort of what c
[13:24] herman Bergson: Watch it, Bejiita! :-))
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): China is doing these days
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): in Africa
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): South America
[13:24] th3runner: I have some questions, what do you think comparably speaking, free market or state-controlled serve as better model for human economy ?
[13:24] herman Bergson: doing qhat Gemma?
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): repeat of what soviet Union did
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i just watched china play football on my tv but was kind of boring so came in here instead
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): inserting itself all over the world
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): with money
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): projects
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): etc
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but indeed money rules the world it seems for sure
[13:25] herman Bergson: wait ....wait.....
[13:25] herman Bergson: there was a question of th3runner....
[13:26] th3runner: yes
[13:26] herman Bergson: free market or state-controlled serve as better model for human economy
[13:26] herman Bergson: the question is..what is better.....
[13:26] herman Bergson: Here we are confronted with a basic flaw in human thinking....
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): still being argued
[13:27] herman Bergson: Aristotle invented his syllogistic logic and had some basic rules...
[13:27] CB Axel: Free market with government regulations to protect the weak from being taken advantage of.
[13:27] herman Bergson: one of them was A can not be NOT-A
[13:27] herman Bergson: it ti either or.....
[13:28] herman Bergson: And th3runner has a simililar question......
[13:28] herman Bergson: either free market or state controlled economy
[13:28] herman Bergson: and that directs the whole debate in a wrong direction
[13:29] herman Bergson: at this very moment we see it happen in our countries....at least in mine....
[13:29] th3runner: but can't see how my question relates to that rule in syllogistic logic ?
[13:29] CB Axel: Neither system works when people get too greedy.
[13:29] herman Bergson: for the supermarket....free market politics are perfect...
[13:29] herman Bergson: no problem....resources and demand....
[13:30] herman Bergson: but they also implemented that idea in healthcare here in the Netherlands....j
[13:30] herman Bergson: just the idea!...Hospitals have to make a profit?!
[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): they already closed some hospitals
[13:31] herman Bergson: So my conclusion is...it isnt either / or....
[13:31] th3runner: So you mean we need a model that integrate elements from both? or a synthesis in dialectical sense?
[13:31] herman Bergson: Yes Beertje...unbelievable...
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we have so many for profit hospitals here
[13:31] herman Bergson: Yes th3runner...of course
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats just bad
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako) whispers: very bad!
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): must be a middle ground in there
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is why it is still being argued
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as i use to call it, pay or die
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): welll at least any emergency room must take people
[13:32] herman Bergson: Let me give you an example.....hot topic in the US....here in the Netherlands just a common thing...healthcare for all
[13:32] theo Velde is online.
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): in both types of hospital
[13:32] herman Bergson: just think....
[13:33] herman Bergson: what do you benefit of as a society.....healthy people who can go to work, feel safe an protected...
[13:33] th3runner: but does free market prevents state-sponsored health care?
[13:33] herman Bergson: suppose you live in a country you can't afford healthcare...
[13:33] herman Bergson: what happens to that society....
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I sure agree but some call it socialism dirty word here
[13:34] herman Bergson: it loses a lot of people who get sick , cant go to work, because they cant afford health-insurance
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or medications
[13:34] herman Bergson: To call it socialism doesn't mean a thing....
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): which are going nuts here
[13:35] herman Bergson: then first show me what is wrong with socialism
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): prices rising 200-400+ percent
[13:35] CB Axel: Eventually, we will have a good old fashioned plague that will wipe out 1/3 of the population, especially the people who do the actual work.
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): to some Americans socialism = Soviet Union
[13:35] herman Bergson: Medication....another issue....
[13:35] CB Axel: Then people who don't think the poor deserve health care will have to work for a living for a change.
[13:36] herman Bergson: The pharma industry is a bunch of criminals...to put it bluntly
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): agree
[13:36] herman Bergson: in fact the pghara industry should be nationalized
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its inane
[13:36] herman Bergson: health is a common good of society
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the pharma industry basically tells that only the rich should survive
[13:37] herman Bergson: so everything that concerns health should be controlled by the state
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cancer meds ect
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they only want to make money, they don't care if u die cause u cant afford it
[13:38] herman Bergson: it is absurd to make a profit on the sickness of people!
[13:38] herman Bergson: it is unethical
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): VERY unethical
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and sad
[13:38] herman Bergson: Let me give you an example.....
[13:39] herman Bergson: a dutch university worked ..in cooperation with a pharma company on a medicine....something against a cancer.....
[13:39] herman Bergson: normal costs for treatment were 60.000 euro per patient a year....
[13:40] herman Bergson: then that university developed a method that was more effective....would lead to a cost of 40.000 euro a year....
[13:40] herman Bergson: at that moment the pharma company stopped supporting the reseach....was no longer in its interest
[13:41] herman Bergson: unethical
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): because their profits decrease, they are not caring that people get healthy, they just use it for their profits
[13:42] herman Bergson: So GOD i snot the free market, neither is what Americans call socialism the devil
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right
[13:42] herman Bergson: yes Bejiita....is just horrible
[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): money is the religion worldwide
[13:43] herman Bergson: Espacially Americans have to learn to think more inclusive today.....
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): same with oil companies there are at least rumors that there are already lot of technologies other then batteries ect for creating electric cars and similar but the oil companies have shut them all down cause the clean technology threats their profit
[13:43] theo Velde is offline.
[13:43] herman Bergson: A = free market, B = social solidarity...
[13:43] herman Bergson: it is not either A or B.....
[13:44] herman Bergson: it is somewhat A and somewhat B
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:44] herman Bergson: but there you have to be a philosopher int he debate....
[13:44] herman Bergson: open, honest, logical, listening to arguments....
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:45] herman Bergson: That is missing at the moment....
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): needs a balance
[13:45] herman Bergson: you are DEM of r dumb...GOP...I mean :-))
[13:45] herman Bergson: I watch it with amazement every day....
[13:46] herman Bergson: But sorry....this is just a side issue :-)
[13:46] herman Bergson: You are exhausted I guess :-)
[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): you are DEM of r dumb...GOP...I mean ..what do you mean by this?
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:47] herman Bergson whispers: So we'd better end our discussion for today ...:-)
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:47] herman Bergson: Class dimisssed
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): was good as usual anyway
[13:47] herman Bergson: you are DEM or dumb...GOP...
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): have you decided on summer leave yet??
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu tuesday
[13:48] bergfrau Apfelbaum: Thank you Hermand and class :-)
[13:48] th3runner: Thank you
[13:48] herman Bergson: Beertje...Dem = Democrats in the US and GOP, Grand Old Party os the Re[ublicans in the US :_)
[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ah:)))
[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i had no idea:)
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i am a left leaning dem
[13:49] herman Bergson: Aren't you attending class to learn new things here? :-)))
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): republican party is NOT what it used to be
[13:49] CB Axel: I'm afraid I'm going so far left I'm falling off the chart.
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): is not Trump party for now
[13:49] herman Bergson: I agree Gemma....
[13:49] CB Axel: At least compared to the GOP.
[13:49] herman Bergson: what has got into those people....unbelievable
[13:49] herman Bergson: just take that Lindsey Graham....
[13:50] CB Axel: Yes, please take him!
[13:50] CB Axel: Take him far away!!
[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he used to be sensible
[13:50] herman Bergson: I really cant believe what he has been and what he is saying now....
[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i didn't always agree with him but sometimes
[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): now????
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he is under trump spell
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): by playing golf with him lololol
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): omg
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): OMG!!!
[13:51] herman Bergson: You used to call Trump a lunatic, unfit for office
[13:52] herman Bergson: Trump cheat at golf....guess he lets Graham win :-))
[13:53] herman Bergson: BTW cute outfit Gemma
[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): lol
[13:53] herman Bergson grins
[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bye for now
[13:54] herman Bergson: Bye Gemma :-)
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