Wednesday, June 19, 2019

791: The Crown Jewel of Capitalism....

Economy is not a science like physics. What happens in the world of physics is based on laws of nature.
Economists have the inclination to make us believe, that what happens in economy is also based on "laws".
Like Adam Smith wanted us to believe that you should not interfere with the economic processes,
with the market, because there was some "silent hand", that guided the processes.
Equally Friedrich von Hayek wants us to believe, that there is some natural social order, with which you should not interfere....leave the free market alone.
What we hear here are normative arguments in relation to individual freedom. When you interfere with a market you are limiting the freedom of the individual.
The basic idea is, and I am putting this in an 1960s context, we should be FREE. Don't f•ck with our freedom which is closely related to economic freedom.
Milton Friedman, the well-known Nobel Prize winning economist and economic advisor to President Reagan and Margaret Thatcher, 
essentially argued that economic freedom was part of freedom, in his book "Capitalism and Freedom", written in 1962.
Friedman, along with earlier writers, Friedrich Hayek, Ayn Rand, to mention the names most commonly associated with such views, 
essentially defined the philosophical and moral positions that came to comprise both libertarian and much mainstream Republican and Tea Party thinking.
In "Capitalism and Freedom ", Milton Friedman expressed the then rather unpopular proposition that the meaning of liberalism had changed in the 20th century, 
that we were far removed from the original 19th-century meaning of economic liberalism, a belief in free trade and free markets
and that liberalism now stood for a belief in equality that had to be established by a well-meaning government. 
His first goal was to restore the original meaning of liberalism, and his second to support that real freedom could only be achieved 
through a return to a real market economy, that real freedom could only exist if man was economically free, which implied NO government interference with the economy.
Position this against a 1960s background, just survived from a totalitarian regime, while behind the Iron Curtain dozens of countries had no economic or personal freedom.
Then the idea that freedom is connected with economic freedom and the right to private property  sounds like the perfect antidote against communism and socialism. 
However, free societies are focused on protecting the rights of individuals, and have no obligation to the rights of markets. 
Markets don’t have rights, only people do. Moreover, markets have impacts on lives and property. 
While it is clear that a free society embraces notions of protecting property and thus must have some sense that a person can decide what to do with his or her property, 

it is by no means clear and self-evident that freedom means minimal government regulation of markets.

On the contrary, it is possible to argue the exact opposite: that freedom includes the right of society to decide 
how much freedom to give its markets and how to balance the forces of the market with the protection of its citizens. 
Indeed, in a world where market forces are larger than governments, the need to protect individuals from market forces themselves certainly can be thought to be a role of government in a free society. 
And that problem we inherited from the 20th century: shouldn't the government protect the individual against the markets? 
Let the answer come from the Republicans or the Democrats....Your choice :-)
Thank you for your attention...

Main Sources:
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995
Peter Watson: A Terrible Beauty (2000)

The Discussion

[13:17] herman Bergson: Let me give you one example regarding freedom of the market....
[13:17] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Economics running like that with no control wil only result in more and more greed where the rich try make the rest poorer to gain themselves
[13:17] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): an evil spiral
[13:17] herman Bergson: a medicin producer is bought by some else...
[13:17] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): some form of control is needed
[13:17] oola Neruda: human nature... like greed, money laundering, doing only what is in one's self interest
[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:18] herman Bergson: this buyer increases the price of the medicine by a factor of ten....
[13:18] oola Neruda: especially if you are rich rich rich
[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and with 1 percent already owning 95% of all money
[13:18] oola Neruda: yes
[13:18] herman Bergson: amazing figures....
[13:18] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I think that even Milton is beginning to see his errors
[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats what happens with no control over economics
[13:18] herman Bergson: Greenspan did...
[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh right him too
[13:20] herman Bergson: it is the big debate these days....the smaal gernment....
[13:20] herman Bergson: small
[13:20] oola Neruda: and our corrupt government... here in the US
[13:20] herman Bergson: and when the government wants to play a role in a market they start screeming...SOCIALISM....
[13:21] CB Axel: But, Herman. Corporations are people!
[13:21] oola Neruda: hmmmph
[13:21] herman Bergson: I must admit oola, that the US government is openly corrupt....
[[13:21] herman Bergson: Yes CB..THAT is the worst   problem.....
[13:21] oola Neruda: and do not even blush
[13:21] herman Bergson: Corporations are humans they should have ethics....
[13:21] Rebecca (rebecca.rozen) is online.
[13:22] herman Bergson: and they don't
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well no wonder with Trump at the rudder who runs the entire US as one big corporation and not as a country
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): money is everything!
[13:22] oola Neruda: right
[13:22] CB Axel: When "Citizens United" was upheld by the Supreme Court (SCOTUS) I began to seriously think about leaving the country.
[13:22] herman Bergson: What is Citizens United, CB?
[13:22] oola Neruda: mmm
[13:23] CB Axel: Bejiita, if Trump was the problem we could fix it with the next election. But the entire Republican party is corrupt.
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): all his supporters
[13:23] oola Neruda: it allows corporations the same priveleged as "people" and they can basically bribe their way into whatever suits them
[13:23] herman Bergson: That has become a very weird party indeed with McConnell in front and Graham on his tail
[13:23] CB Axel: Pretty much, oola.
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm sadly :(
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its a mess
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that i hope will fix itself somehow
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): OMG!!!
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): omg
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and i used to have some respect for graham
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): tho i disagree with him
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not anymore
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he is a toady
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): he have probably fallen for the bait of greed as well
[13:25] herman Bergson: One thing that troubles me is....
[13:26] herman Bergson: thatt sometimes in the news they refer to the president of the US as the leader of the free world....
[13:26] herman Bergson: Well...believe me...I am done with that....
[13:26] CB Axel: We don't have 1 person = 1 vote any more. We have 1$ = 1 vote, so the people with the most money influence elections. My vote counts for nothing.
[13:26] herman Bergson: he isn't
[13:26] oola Neruda: McConnel is a particularly huge log jam
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well as much as trump applauds HIS great economy it is the normal people that don't see it in their lives
[13:26] herman Bergson: I see him as a danger to the free world
[13:26] CB Axel: I agree, Herman.
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:27] herman Bergson: But this what we inherited from the 20th century....
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): trump is clearly the one valuing people based on how rich u are so the poor ones he sees just as trash
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and is losing the confidence of our allies too
[13:27] oola Neruda: he is delusional
[13:28] herman Bergson: this blind faith in the free market.....
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm very delusional
[13:28] herman Bergson: and in thise century we are paying the bill for it
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): he belong in an asylum, not the white house
[13:28] oola Neruda: nods
[13:29] herman Bergson: There happened something "unbelievable" here in the Netherlands......!!!!
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): jail not the asylum
[13:29] herman Bergson: Listen....
[13:29] herman Bergson: Our prime minister is a 100% liberal.....
[13:30] herman Bergson: and last week in a speech he said......
[13:30] herman Bergson: The profits of the companies are sky hugh at the moment....
[13:30] herman Bergson: and what do we see...???
[13:30] herman Bergson: The salaries of the top managers increase immense....
[13:31] herman Bergson: and the income of the workers in the factories don't rise at alll...
[13:31] herman Bergson: that has to change!
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): same here .. and maybe as more speak of the differences the pendulum will swing
[13:31] CB Axel: I scoffed at the "trickle down theory" back in the Reagan era.
[13:31] oola Neruda: right
[13:31] herman Bergson: otherwise the government will take measures
[13:31] CB Axel: But the GOP keeps trying to tell us trickle down works.
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so stupid
[13:32] herman Bergson: Yes that nonsense trickle down fairy tale
[13:32] oola Neruda: right... it works.... for them
[13:32] CB Axel: It didn't work back the, it's not working now, and it will never work.
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): nope
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i was just gonna say that, the only one getting paid are the bosses, not the workers, they are barley paid often so they can make the day while the bosses slurp champagne and ride luxury cars
[13:32] oola Neruda: right
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we need more unions
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): again
[13:32] CB Axel: The only thing that trickles down to workers is piss.
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): champagne
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): at least in this past year we saw teachers stand up and walk out
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): adn win!!!!
[13:33] oola Neruda: !!!!!
[13:33] herman Bergson: \o/
[[13:33] herman Bergson: The most interesting here is
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and brexit stil looms
[13:34] herman Bergson: that the theory of only one person can have such an effect on the whole world...
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): no end
[13:34] CB Axel: The GOP is just going to use that as an excuse to open their own for profit schools.
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sadly
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess
[13:34] herman Bergson: Well...
[13:34] oola Neruda: for profit schools is exactly what Betsy did....
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh es
[13:34] herman Bergson: what I am thinking all the time in such a situation is...
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep
[13:35] oola Neruda: and now regular schools scramble for funding
[13:35] herman Bergson: that it is not ONE person.......
[13:35] oola Neruda: and poor neighborhoods are worse off than ever
[13:35] herman Bergson: there is a soil he feeds on.....
[13:36] herman Bergson: Trump can be there because there already was a 'Trump"
[13:36] herman Bergson: in the Tea Party people and others
[13:36] herman Bergson: and Democrates are real softies ^_^
[13:37] herman Bergson: we saved America.....well done :-)
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we tried at least
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:38] oola Neruda: the republicans on the ground are just plain manipulated with promises and emotional "catastrophes" that only republican votes can fix... HAH
[13:38] herman Bergson: so it is Bejiita
[13:38] herman Bergson: Unless someone else wishes to save the rest of the world......?
[13:38] oola Neruda: so they vote for no abortion and the wall....
[13:38] herman Bergson: Class dismissed
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:39] herman Bergson: and thank you all again :-)
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well cu next time
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hope to be here Thursday too
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): then we can continue
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): with the rest
[13:39] CB Axel: There is no saving America. It's a lost cause.
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh cb
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i think that was said at the civil war
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and after
[13:39] herman Bergson: Good plan, CB
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and other wars
[13:39] herman Bergson: Working on it ^_^
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and depression
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and
[13:40] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you, Herman and class :-)
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well there will be total chaos there unless something changes for sure
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bye for now
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but cu next time thursday
[13:40] CB Axel: See you all Thursday.
[13:40] CB Axel: Bye.
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): bye
[13:40] herman Bergson: Don't worry Bejiita

[13:41] herman Bergson: Ok CB :-)

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