Saturday, September 5, 2020

865: Expectations.....

 The assumption, that most people are ok, is in general not what we really tend to believe about mankind.


However, we can not deny the fact that mankind has made some progress and improved the conditions of living for an increasing number of people.


But suppose,  this belief that your fellowman is really OK, is a general attitude of everybody towards each other... you only expect the good from the other.........


In 1963 the Harvard psychologist Bob Rosenthal took two cages with untrained general lab rats. One he labeled "Maze bright", the other "Maze dull".


One group of students got the "smart" rats and had to study their behavior in a maze. The other group got the "dummies".


Although there wasn't any difference between the rats, the "maze bright" labeled rats performed much better than the "dummies".


Hardly anyone believed the outcome of this experiment. How could there be a difference, until it occurred to Rosenthal 


that the students with the "smart" rats treated them gentle, friendly, with care, while the "dummies" got a less gentle treatment.


Can you imagine the life of a lab rat? While your colleague is picked up gently, caressed, friendly spoken to and gently put down in a maze, you are just picked up and put in a drafty maze, just like that.


The conclusion was clear: because the students had high expectations of their "maze bright" rats, this seems to influence even the behavior of lab rats.


Rosenthal repeated the experiment, but now with teachers and pupils. Supposedly on the basis of IQ test results,


the pupils were divided into a smart and a less smart group, although the distribution was completely random.


The teachers didn't know this. And yes: again the magical power of expectation does its job. 


The teachers appear to give the 'smart' group more attention, compliments and hopeful looks, so that the children also see themselves differently. 


The effect on young pupils is most obvious: they jump an average of 27 IQ points in one year.


The greatest progress is being made by guys with a Mexican appearance, the group that is normally least expected? 


Rosenthal calls his discovery the "Pygmalion Effect," after the mythological artist who loved an image he had made of a woman so much that the gods decided to bring her to life. 


The Pygmalion effect is reminiscent of the placebo effect. Only we are not talking about an expectation that benefits us ourselves. This is an expectation that moves others forward.


You could say, this is old research from the 60s. We have seen it before. Like in the Milgram experiments... a bit manipulated results.


However, fifty years later, the Pygmalion effect is one of the most important findings of psychological science. 


Hundreds of studies have been done in the military, in universities, in courtrooms, in families, in nursing homes, and in businesses! 


Time and again it turns out that expectations are powerful weapons. We should do something with this scientific observation.......


Thank you for your attention again....

Main Sources:
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995
Rutger Bregman, "De meeste mensen deugen",, 2019


The Discussion


[13:19] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman

[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I hate those school experiments

[13:20] herman Bergson: Ethically questionable indeed, Gemma

[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right

[13:21] Ludova (quippe.wylder): I have experienced the Pygmalion effect and the placebo effect with people.

[13:21] herman Bergson: But even without the experiments, the expectations effect seems to be there

[13:21] theo Velde is online.

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes expectations are valuable in classes

[13:22] herman Bergson: Yes is a real works

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or anywhere

[13:22] herman Bergson: that is the point today, Gemma

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:22] Lente (lentelies.anatine) is offline.

[13:22] Ludova (quippe.wylder): I really do expect people to be OK, and I got a reputation for getting along with people other people can't stand.

[13:23] herman Bergson: Suppose we ALL would approach the owrld and our fellowmen with such positive expectations....

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): positive feeds positive

[13:23] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): in what way Ludova?

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): negative feeds negative

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sort of

[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Thinks it is hard to do sometimes

[13:23] Ludova (quippe.wylder): Positive feeds positive.

[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): leads also to disappointment sometimes

[13:24] herman Bergson: I just happened to read today about something interesting.....

[13:24] herman Bergson: A prison in Norway.....

[13:24] herman Bergson: The guards do not wear arms...

[13:24] herman Bergson: the prisones cook for themselves...use all KNIFES....

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): advanced way of treating prisoners works

[13:25] herman Bergson: and recidivism in Norway is at its lowest....

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): here in some prisons

[13:25] herman Bergson: Prisoners treated as human beings, Gemma....

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right

[13:26] herman Bergson: Approached with the expectation that you can behave like a decent human being even when you have made a mistake previously

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): with the expectation that reform is better that punishment

[13:26] Ludova (quippe.wylder): I'd rather believe people are good and get cheated, which I have been.

[13:26] CB Axel: I read about that, too. But too many people (conservatives for the most part) view prisons as a place for punishment.

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): law and order

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sick of that phrase lately

[13:27] CB Axel: I would prefer prisons that try to rehabilitate and educate.

[13:27] Ludova (quippe.wylder): Why do people   want vengeance instead of just solving the problem.

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it all just spirals downwards then

[13:27] herman Bergson: That is exactly our point CB.....the belief that most people are NOT act upon that....

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): instead of prison for drug adicts how about helping them

[13:27] Ludova (quippe.wylder): And if something doesn't work, do we concentrate on finding someone to blame instead of solving the problem.

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed Gemma

[13:28] herman Bergson: same case Gemma

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:28] herman Bergson: Liberalize soft alcohol is free...

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i agree with that

[13:28] herman Bergson: alcohol is worse inits effects than weed

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): for a long time tho i never used

[13:28] Ludova (quippe.wylder): Allow alcohol, don't allow drunk driving.

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa ive heard that too

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it works in many countries

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes I mean a drink now and then and get a bit tipsy even I crave now and then but Im not addicted to it

[13:29] herman Bergson: It does in the Netherlands :-)

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Portugal too

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and I certainly don't drive while buzzy

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sadly many do

[13:30] CB Axel: People are not addicted to drugs or alcohol. They are addicted to escaping reality.

[13:30] CB Axel: Fix their reality and you'll fix their drug problem.

[13:30] CB Axel: Jail is not a fix.

[13:30] herman Bergson: Guess so too, CB

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): these days reality almost makes onne do it

[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes CB

[13:30] herman Bergson: But there also os a physical addiction....which gets to you

[13:30] Ludova (quippe.wylder): My reality isn't too horrid. I get what I expect.

[13:31] CB Axel: True, Herman, but they wouldn't be trying drugs if they weren't trying to escape from their reality.

[13:31] herman Bergson: hmmm...may be true too...

[13:31] Ludova (quippe.wylder): And if I don't get what I expect I avoid those particular people.

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or young and doing it with  friends

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): just to be part of the group

[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): to experiment Gemma

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): learn

[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes

[13:32] herman Bergson: but to get back to our main issue today.....

[13:32] herman Bergson: Suppose we would expect only the good from the other....

[13:33] herman Bergson: have only positive expectations....

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): what would the result be=

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ?

[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): isn't that a naive thought?

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): feel lik I always try but

[13:33] CB Axel: That would be great, but those with more conservative brains can't do that. They are pre-programmed to fear others.

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): positive feedback I say

[13:33] herman Bergson: there we have the ..people are intrinsically bad thinker the response of Beertje....

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right

[13:34] herman Bergson: Isn't it too naive to think so....

[13:34] CB Axel: naive?

[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): don't know the english word..sorry

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is where the disappointment comes in

[13:34] herman Bergson: No no Beertje you are right.....

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): fully believing the best always beertje

[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont):

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ys you aer right

[13:35] herman Bergson: Of course it isnt realistic to expect that all people all over the world all of a sudden start thinking positive about their fellowman...

[13:35] Ludova (quippe.wylder): I would rather be considered naive than start believing people aren't good.

[13:36] herman Bergson: That's a start Ludova

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): thta has been the theme here for a while

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:36] herman Bergson: And from there we have to convince others....

[13:36] Ludova (quippe.wylder): And it works, Herman. I know a guy who annoys almost everyone, but he's nice to me.

[13:36] herman Bergson: And dont be too pessimistic about it.....

[13:37] herman Bergson: We have a Human Rights Treaty....

[13:37] Ludova (quippe.wylder): And I tell him he's OK. If so many other people  weren't telling him he's not he might believe me. He does sometimes.

[13:37] herman Bergson: That is based on the belief that man is good

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I think we read that

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): last year

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): online

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): homework

[13:38] herman Bergson: In other words....we MAKE progress!

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): true

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): YAY! (yay!)

[13:39] Ludova (quippe.wylder): I really hate that yay yay gesture. It seems to be telling me I'm not ok.

[13:40] CB Axel: Really?

[13:40] herman Bergson: lol..what makes you think that Ludova

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): haha why

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ur ok

[13:41] Ludova (quippe.wylder): I've been hearing that gesture for 14 years. It says that whatever just happened that I could be cheerful about, the yay yayer isn't cheerful and thinks I'm naive for being so.

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it is such an old one yes ...

[13:41] CB Axel: You seem ok to me, and I'm the biggest pessimist in this group.

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i remember it way way back

[13:41] Ludova (quippe.wylder): Thanks, CB.

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it sort of hangs wrong at the end of the sound

[13:42] Ludova (quippe.wylder): It's sarcastic

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well indeed its one of my first ones

[13:42] herman Bergson: Based on the first Amendment I allow the YAY expression here in class :-))))

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is the sound

[13:42] CB Axel: Hmmm. I don't see it as sarcastic.

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i think he was happy with Herman saying we make progress

[13:42] herman Bergson: Neither do I....^_^

[13:42] Ludova (quippe.wylder): And I've been hearing it for 14 years and this is the first time I've remarked about it. Which says something about me.

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it is the hanging second

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): *:-.,_,.-:*'``'*Yayyyyyyy!!!!*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but I don't have so many happy sounds

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well I have some more

[13:43] Ludova (quippe.wylder): That one's great.

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): likes that one better

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): YIFFY! ^.^

[13:43] herman Bergson: Yes must be one of the silent majority :-))

[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): never have sound on:) i didn't even know there was a sound with the gesture:)

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): /yay

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hmms

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!! :D :p :D :p :D

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): show off

[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol Bejiita

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): another one

[13:43] bergfrau Apfelbaum: Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee-Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaw !!!!!

[13:43] herman Bergson: Go for it Bejiita :-))

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): haha

[13:44] Ludova (quippe.wylder): That's great.  I like show-offs. They give me permission to show off.

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I tossed alot of my early gestures

[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ow bejiita

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:44] herman Bergson: Cool

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): BOING BOING

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:44] bergfrau Apfelbaum: yay

[13:44] herman Bergson: Never had such an exciting class....

[13:44] bergfrau Apfelbaum: yay

[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): /yay

[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yay

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:44] bergfrau Apfelbaum: yay

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): positive feedback!

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): wwe also brin chickens to class once i a while

[13:45] CB Axel: This is absolutely fascinating.

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): always good

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:45] Ludova (quippe.wylder): I like that fascinating one, CB

[13:45] CB Axel: :)

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): *:-.,_,.-:*'``'*Yayyyyyyy!!!!*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*

[13:45] herman Bergson grins

[13:45] CB Axel: I make gestures for the group I watch movies with.

[13:45] herman Bergson: OK people....

[13:46] herman Bergson: Guess it is time to Dismiss Class

[13:46] bergfrau Apfelbaum: * giggle *

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i have not been to that theatr in a while

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): must go

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hahah

[13:46] Ludova (quippe.wylder): What have we learned.

[13:46] herman Bergson: Thank youall gain for your kind gestures ...:-)

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa I have to check some more stuff now too

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): to have high expectations

[13:46] herman Bergson: Right, Gemma!

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and it will improve ourselves and others

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bergie

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!!

[13:47] Second Life: bergfrau Apfelbaum gave you /longyay.

[13:47] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:47] Ludova (quippe.wylder): This is absolutely fascinating.

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu soon all

[13:47] CB Axel: LOL

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