There was a problem with democracy. The American Revolution was very popular among European revolutionaries.
In a previous lecture we already met the Londoner Richard Price (1723 – 1791) and his popular pamphlet:
"Observations on the Nature of Civil Liberty, the Principles of Government, and the Justice and Policy of the War with America".
In Europe with its long tradition of royal absolutism, the problem was felt strongest, I guess. It is this idea of rule by the people. Who are the people?
This becomes a serious question when you read the articles of a constitution in which is stated that all men are equal and thence have equal rights as potential rulers.
However, the social class that really pulled the strings in most societies was the people that were educated and could read and write,
In other words, the MINORITY! The illiterate and uneducated were the actual MAJORITY. That raised the question: how can that majority be the ruler?
This resulted in the question: Is a democracy, that is ruled by the people, a necessary condition for individual freedom?
This leads to Johann Augustus Eberhard (1739 – 1809), a German theologian, and his popular essay "About the freedom of the citizen and the principles of government" (1784).
The idea that freedom could only be found in democratic republics was an unfounded prejudice, he said.
Eberhard explained that "citizen liberty" involved distinguishing between two completely different kinds of liberty: civil liberty and political liberty.
A nation had political freedom if it participated in government. Hence, political freedom existed only in republics and was greatest in democratic republics.
But people who had the right to do whatever they wanted, as long as they obeyed the law, enjoyed civil liberty. This kind of freedom did not depend on the form of government. It could exist just as easily in a monarchy as in a republic.
Eberhard's distinction between civil and political liberty was a new idea. By sharply distinguishing these two kinds of freedom, Eberhard tried not only to achieve greater conceptual clarity.
He also tried to deal with the theory of freedom championed by the Atlantean revolutionaries, namely that a people could only be free if it exercised control over the way it was governed.
Eberhard argued that political and civil liberty were not only different from each other but often had an inverse relationship with each other.
A people that had more political freedom often had less civil freedom, and a people that lived under royal absolutism often had a high degree of civil freedom.
Eberhard argued it this way: in his view, the power of absolute monarchs was generally less certain than that of republican governments, which could count on wider support.
To avoid discontent, kings and queens were therefore inclined to give their subjects more freedom of action.
In republics, people accepted the restriction of their civil liberty more easily because such a restriction was balanced by the realization that the citizens themselves had control over their government.
Moreover, in democracy the sovereign population in a democracy often allowed themselves to be carried away by passions and ignorance, taking measures that undermined the common good and harmed individual freedoms.
Hence popular governments often exercised despotic rule, while the king and his officials acted in enlightened monarchies such as Prussia. based on knowledge and reason.
The polity under which civil liberty was best guaranteed was not a rule of the ignorant masses, but the rule of a wise and enlightened ruler like Frederick the Great.
Democracy means that the people make the laws, not some individual or elite. But Eberhard doesn't believe it is possible due to irrational passions and ignorance of the masses.
The arguments of the contra-revolution, that was growing too in Europe.
Thank you for your attention again...
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
TABLE OF CONTENT -----------------------------------------------------------------
1 - 100 Philosophers 9 May 2009 Start of
2 - 25+ Women Philosophers 10 May 2009 this blog
3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking 10 May 2009
4 - Modern Theories of Ethics 29 Oct 2009
5 - The Ideal State 24 Febr 2010 / 234
6 - The Mystery of the Brain 3 Sept 2010 / 266
7 - The Utopia of the Free Market 16 Febr 2012 / 383
8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism 5 Sept 2012 / 413
9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist 6 Nov 2012 / 426
10 - Non-Western Philosophy 29 May 2013 / 477
11 - Why Science is Right 2 Sept 2014 / 534
12 - A Philosopher looks at Atheism 1 Jan 2015 / 557
13 - EVIL, a philosophical investigation 17 Apr 2015 / 580
14 - Existentialism and Free Will 2 Sept 2015 / 586
15 - Spinoza 2 Sept 2016 / 615
16 - The Meaning of Life 13 Febr 2017 / 637
17 - In Search of my Self 6 Sept 2017 / 670
18 - The 20th Century Revisited 3 Apr 2018 / 706
19 - The Pessimist 11 Jan 2020 / 819
20 - The Optimist 9 Febr 2020 / 824
21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream 8 Oct 2020 / 872
22 - A World Full of Patterns 1 Apr 2021 / 912
23 - The Concept of Freedom 8 Jan 2022 / 965
The Discussion
[13:18] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[13:18] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano) smirks. "Plato sends his regards, doesn't he?"
[13:18] herman Bergson: As you can hear in Eberhard's words....fear of the masses
[13:19] herman Bergson: Indeed Sousi...this is Plato 100%
[13:19] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano): And democracy was rule by the masses according to Plato.
[13:19] herman Bergson: What Eberhard leaves out is the fact how laws are created
[13:20] herman Bergson: Initially it was rule by king-philosophers
[13:20] herman Bergson: Besides Eberhard believes in the reason and rationality of the king
[13:21] herman Bergson: I agree with the observation that the masses were illiterated and uneducated....
[13:21] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano): Mmm. Machiavelli said something interesting... that the French system, where the power of the king is limited by the parliament, is probably a really good idea.
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at that time i guess this was the case
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): not like today
[13:22] herman Bergson: but people always make the mistake in concluding thta the masses are therfor dumb and stupid and passion driven
[13:22] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano): We have our uneducated masses today
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm thats true but
[13:23] herman Bergson: It is more important to be informed properly
[13:23] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano) nods
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): True Herman
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): information and education
[13:23] herman Bergson: so...democracy needs a free press and freedom of speech
[13:23] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano): But a lot of education is merely propaganda today.
[13:23] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano): Political truths that form the basis for employment
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sadly yes, I heard what they do to school children in russia. That is misinformation on large scale
[13:24] herman Bergson: Well...I think there is a difference between propaganda and a specific interpretation of history....
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Teachers are forced to brainwash the kids with propaganda
[13:25] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano): Russia? We have professors in academia who say there is no such thing as objective truth.
[13:25] herman Bergson: I mean....a lot of information is Europa centered.....
[13:25] herman Bergson: ok...Sousi....
[13:26] herman Bergson: Take that professor to the roof and say that the existence of gravity is just an opinion....and make him jump
[13:26] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano): Good luck with that.
[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ツ
[13:26] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano): Fact is... SO much of education today simply IS NOT.
[13:27] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano): Academia has always been a prize to power hungry politicians
[13:27] herman Bergson: Unless the existence of gravity is objective truth he might jump and according to his opinion survive the jump :-)
[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): were do you find YOUR truth Sousi?
[13:28] herman Bergson: Well...take for instance education in a catholic or protestant school....is that propaganda?
[13:28] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano): My point is that when we divide people into educated and uneducated, the educated group is far smaller than official data might claim
[13:28] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano): That's a long answer, Beertje
[13:28] herman Bergson: depends on your definition of 'educated' I assume
[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): try me
[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i'm s good listener
[13:29] herman Bergson: Besides that...the idea of anabsolute truth is also a philosophical construct....an assumption
[13:30] herman Bergson: You also could go for intersubjective truth as the standard...
[13:30] herman Bergson: Like theories in physics eventually are based on assumptions
[13:30] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano): Okay. To be educated, you need to know many things, many facts, enough to place them in a context. Then you also need to know critical thinking, so you can evaluate those facts and those contexts. And you can't, I believe, see education as a means to an end. If it's a weapon for you to use to get advantages, your focus will be very different.
[13:30] herman Bergson: and when you want to take it even much further,
[13:31] herman Bergson: you could say that the only truth you have is your personal sensory data and thus end up in solipsism....
[13:31] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano): Professor, Descartes was not so convincing, yet everyone acts as if he was.
[13:31] herman Bergson: Descartes was simply wrong....
[13:32] herman Bergson: For me the truth begins in biology
[13:32] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano): And yet cogito ergo sum is the basis for all that "no objective truth" bunk
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well the name says it all. We can discard him
[13:33] theo Velde is online.
[13:33] herman Bergson: But that Cogito is already BS.....
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or not really or idk
[13:33] herman Bergson: I know so I am....
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:33] herman Bergson: beautiful
[13:33] herman Bergson: But where did the knowledge of this "I" come trom?
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well
[13:33] herman Bergson: from
[13:34] herman Bergson: I think thus I am
[13:34] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano): The simplest model of reality is that objective truth exists, whether we can know it perfectly or not.
[13:34] herman Bergson: That is indeed the situation.....
[13:34] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano): Until the matrix starts to glitch, we all win by treating the world as existing.
[13:34] herman Bergson: it makes no sense to cling to an absolute phenomenalism....
[13:35] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano): But... back to the democracy issue. Sorry for the derail.
[13:35] herman Bergson: The present situation is that the world has to acccept that we exist and are killing the world and environment
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and each other
[13:36] herman Bergson: Yes...will democracy help us in this situation
[13:36] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano): Would you prefer a society where an elite ruled, getting better societal results, or a democracy, where everyone could rule together?
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least in some places
[13:36] herman Bergson: is it the way out?
[13:36] herman Bergson: It still is an invention of the white Europeans historically
[13:37] herman Bergson: Is it a universal medicine for creating a better world with all its different cultures
[13:37] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano): Sad thing is... the step we take to authoritarianism is the end of our chance to fight any crisis. It doesn't matter if it's green people on top.
[13:37] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano): Because authoritarian regimes LIE.
[13:38] herman Bergson: Yes....you never know whose special interests an authoritarian regime serves
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): exactly
[13:38] herman Bergson: Most of the time the greed of a small elite
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): brainwashing everyone else
[13:38] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano): They will tell us "we have done AMAZING things for the environment this month, here are the data from the department of propaganda"
[13:39] herman Bergson smiles
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:39] herman Bergson: This is also the danger in this idea of 'civil freedom' of Eberhard.....
[13:40] herman Bergson: Just be a law obeyding citizen and you can live your life as you like it....
[13:41] herman Bergson: who makes the laws to what purpose...
[13:41] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano): It's also interesting that he excludes economic freedom
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm indeed
[13:42] herman Bergson: only when the people rules or their representatives we can steer the situation in a direction where intersubjective truth will be the basis of compromises
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the creators of the law might use it to restrain people. We see this in places like Iran and Saudi Arabia
[13:42] herman Bergson: Indeed Bejiita
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): usung the law to take freedom away
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and executing anyone breaking them
[13:43] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano): Moralistic laws, censorship, laws that divide society into groups...
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): exactly
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): those things
[13:43] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano): A hallmark of conservative politicians everywhere
[13:43] herman Bergson: This idea of civil freedom is one of the leading ideas of the contra revolution in the 17 century and later.....
[13:44] herman Bergson: Watch this.....
[13:44] herman Bergson: the next step against democracy....
[13:44] herman Bergson: the dictatorship of the majority
[13:44] herman Bergson: will the our next subject
[13:44] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano) applauds
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:45] herman Bergson: so...the fist contr step against democracy is...you need wise people to make the laws (Plato)
[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): wise people= rich people?
[13:46] herman Bergson: the second is....Beware for the dictatorship of the majority ( which are the dumb and uneducated masses)
[13:47] herman Bergson: You know how it is Beertje....
[13:47] herman Bergson: Those with money can afford good education etc....
[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes true
[13:47] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano): The rich people were step 3 of Plato's process, weren't they?
[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): but what is wise?
[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): an uneducated man can be wise too
[13:48] herman Bergson: Rousseau would answer....wise is acting according to Nature...
[13:49] herman Bergson: Like Cicero already said...using reason is acting according nature
[13:49] herman Bergson: For me it just confirms the idea that the truth starts in our biology :-)
[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes
[13:50] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano): The thing is... we need bright people who want a functioning society.
[13:50] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano): But if there is anything that is shameful, it's being smart.
[13:51] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano): Never admit that you are, or the morons will kill you
[13:51] herman Bergson: To create a functioning society you need general solidarity among people....dumb or bright
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:52] herman Bergson: a geneal will to survive as a whole
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sounds logical
[13:52] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano): Absolutely. Which is accepted, except if smart people try to influence decisions.
[13:52] herman Bergson: but today we still live at a tribal level....we want our tribe to survive
[13:53] herman Bergson: So....today we really saved the world :-))
[13:54] herman Bergson: Thank you all again for participating in the process
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): YAY! (yay!)
[13:54] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman it was truly interesting
[13:54] herman Bergson: We'll continue our efforts next Thursday :-))
[13:54] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano): Dumb people are REALLY scared of smart people getting into power. That would lead to the smart people exploiting the dumb people. So to prevent this, the dumb people install their own dumb people as leaders, who then exploit the dumb people.
[13:54] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano): Thank you
[13:54] herman Bergson smiles
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe well
[13:55] herman Bergson: We'll take this final remark of Sousi with us and ponder about it :-)
[13:55] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....
[13:55] herman Bergson: Was a smart observation Sousi....so beware :-)
[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:56] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): grins
[13:56] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you herman (our tribal leader:-) and class
[13:56] herman Bergson grins
[13:56] herman Bergson: Thank you Bergie
[13:56] bergfrau Apfelbaum: :-)
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