The French Revolution had led to the Reign of Terror and eventually ended in the dictatorship of Napoleon Bonaparte in 1799.
The idea of democratic rule by the people hadn't made it and there came room for contra-revolutionary alternatives.
If there was no direct relation between civil freedom and the political organization of society, there had to be at least some guarantee of this civil freedom.
What arguments were there? To begin with, one proposition is that people were free if a government interfered as little as possible with the private lives of individual citizens. Sounds familiar....
Another view was that civil liberties are best guaranteed when the government is in the hands of a wise elite.
You also needed a STRONG government that made sure people obeyed the law. Of course, that doesn't work under every legal system.
You could only consider people free when they were subject to just laws. But who decides whether laws are fair and just or not?
The answer in those days was crystal clear: the elites were better trained than ordinary citizens at judging whether laws were fair and whether they protected liberty.
This was taken for granted because everyone could see for themselves that intellect naturally only occurs among a small minority of people, which of course happened to be the elites.
A third view was that of the presence of checks and balances. In a constitution, all parts had to be formulated in such a way
that they not only serve their own purpose but also limit and control other parts. Somewhat like the clear division in the United States between Executive, Judicial and Legislative power and their mutual control.
All in all, in a free society you do not really need broad participation of all citizens in politics at all, in order to achieve a healthy society
where everyone can live in freedom and not as a slave to anyone. So far the arguments of the contra-revolutionaries around 1800.
Well, that was it. It is 1815. Napoleon had found his Waterloo and so one could return to the situation before all that revolutionary hassle in Europe.
The Holy Alliance, a loose organization of most European monarchs, was formed in Paris on September 26, 1815,
by Alexander I of Russia, Francis I of Austria and Frederick William III of Prussia as they were negotiating the Second Peace of Paris after Napoleon's final defeat.
Its recognized purpose was to promote the influence of Christian principles in the affairs of nations.
Not the people themselves but kings were expected to lead their peoples and armies as a "Pater familias" (The head of the family, so, a man).
The first decades of the nineteenth century are thus characterized by the emergence of neo-absolutism in Europe. Even the Netherlands, which had been a republic since the 1590s, became a kingdom.
And here I am, a Dutchman, living in a country with a king as the head of state. There even isn't a biological argument to justify, that a human being should obtain that position by birth.
Am I a free citizen or am I a slave of my king? Fortunately, the political organization of my country is thus,
that this king-person is allowed to spend quite an amount of our tax money for free and we, the people, enjoy the freedom to waste tax money on such a superfluous institution. Pure luxury.......
Thank you for your attention.....
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
TABLE OF CONTENT -----------------------------------------------------------------
1 - 100 Philosophers 9 May 2009 Start of
2 - 25+ Women Philosophers 10 May 2009 this blog
3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking 10 May 2009
4 - Modern Theories of Ethics 29 Oct 2009
5 - The Ideal State 24 Febr 2010 / 234
6 - The Mystery of the Brain 3 Sept 2010 / 266
7 - The Utopia of the Free Market 16 Febr 2012 / 383
8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism 5 Sept 2012 / 413
9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist 6 Nov 2012 / 426
10 - Non-Western Philosophy 29 May 2013 / 477
11 - Why Science is Right 2 Sept 2014 / 534
12 - A Philosopher looks at Atheism 1 Jan 2015 / 557
13 - EVIL, a philosophical investigation 17 Apr 2015 / 580
14 - Existentialism and Free Will 2 Sept 2015 / 586
15 - Spinoza 2 Sept 2016 / 615
16 - The Meaning of Life 13 Febr 2017 / 637
17 - In Search of my Self 6 Sept 2017 / 670
18 - The 20th Century Revisited 3 Apr 2018 / 706
19 - The Pessimist 11 Jan 2020 / 819
20 - The Optimist 9 Febr 2020 / 824
21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream 8 Oct 2020 / 872
22 - A World Full of Patterns 1 Apr 2021 / 912
23 - The Concept of Freedom 8 Jan 2022 / 965
The Discussion
[13:11] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm i see that thing with our politicians also, wasting tax money
[13:11] herman Bergson: Feel free to ask questions and so on :-)
[13:11] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman
[13:11] oola Neruda: aren't there discussions with elected persons.... to give "both" or several sides on these matters?
[13:11] herman Bergson: Not all Dutch see it as wasting money Bejiita
[13:11] oola Neruda: or are they influenced by money from the outside
[13:12] herman Bergson: on what matters oola?
[13:12] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well it depends but tax money should always be put to good use
[13:12] oola Neruda: like in the US
[13:13] herman Bergson: Politicians aren't bought in the Netherlands...nor in most European countries
[13:13] herman Bergson: Seems to be an American tradition mainly
[13:13] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): buying politicians sounds like bribing to me
[13:13] oola Neruda: swear words....
[13:14] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or buy in what way
[13:14] oola Neruda: it is just a fact... here
[13:14] herman Bergson: That is something else Bejiita....in the US it is called Fund raising
[13:14] oola Neruda: yes
[13:14] herman Bergson: for election campaigns
[13:14] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm that i have heard
[13:14] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that term
[13:14] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes those
[13:15] oola Neruda: there are legit people but... when the money comes from a single source in thousands and millions... that is bribary...
[13:15] herman Bergson: I still don not understand the system, but it is about millions of dollars each time
[13:15] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[13:15] oola Neruda: yes... from companies or people who stand to make out on it
[13:16] oola Neruda: make money on it
[13:16] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): so the government in the Us is only for the rich?
[13:16] oola Neruda: frankly, in ways...yes.... depends upon the elected officials...
[13:16] oola Neruda: some take the bribes.... others don't
[13:16] herman Bergson: It is possessed by the rich Beertje...that doesn't mean that they do not do sometimes something good for the not wealthy people :-)
[13:17] oola Neruda: you can also bribe by being an outlet like FOX.... who praises or curses whomever they please
[13:17] herman Bergson: You have to keep your voters in a good mood of course
[13:18] oola Neruda: or scare them to death.... only way to survive it to pay me
[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:19] herman Bergson: But what we see here historically is that the system of king + people is restored in Europe....in 1815
[13:19] herman Bergson: And what fascinates me is....who were the people who organized this...
[13:19] oola Neruda: !!!
[13:20] herman Bergson: To some extent we know...the elites of several societies
[13:20] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): but why a king?
[13:20] oola Neruda: the ones who stand to benefit
[13:20] herman Bergson: Particula groups with particular interests...most of the time of course their money and/or profitable positions in society
[13:20] oola Neruda: and their friends
[13:21] herman Bergson: indeed oola :-)
[13:21] herman Bergson: we think the same here ^_^
[13:22] herman Bergson: Society is an organic structure....things change and grow...like elite groups work themselves into specific positions
[13:22] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): was there a referendum among citicens who wants a king?
[13:22] herman Bergson: They decide....
[13:22] oola Neruda: nods
[13:22] herman Bergson: of course not Beertje.....
[13:23] herman Bergson: the masses are dumb....that was a default a priori of the elites
[13:23] oola Neruda: still is
[13:23] herman Bergson: so only educated and well-to-do people can decide in such matters
[13:24] herman Bergson: not poor people...not to speak of women....no way
[13:24] oola Neruda: and for voting.... propaganda works well
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so one of them decides IM GONNA BE A KING AND RULE EVERYONE ELSE
[13:25] oola Neruda: trump?
[13:25] herman Bergson: well...more or less if he had the right connections...like our Dutch Willem I or II...forgot which one it was then:-)
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i bet He dreams of that
[13:26] herman Bergson: Mr. T would love to be king...he already thinks he is
[13:26] herman Bergson: Hello Andrew :-)
[13:26] AndrewEagle01: Hello Herman
[13:26] AndrewEagle01: Hello Everyone
[13:27] oola Neruda: welcome Andrew
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but Trump is more the dictator type it seems or ´what is the difference really between king and dictator. I guess the dictator like to terrorize and murder people more but still its one single dude in power in both cases and kings are a bit more ancient also
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): never thought of it this way
[13:28] herman Bergson: We just observed the restoration of absolutism in Europe in 1815 and the end of the debate on political freedom, that is, the freedom of the people to rule itself
[13:28] herman Bergson: Bejiita.....
[13:28] herman Bergson: A dictator is a subclass of the class of Kings
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok well that sounds logical then
[13:29] herman Bergson: King is the one who rules...
[13:29] herman Bergson: in that class you have good kings and bad kings
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true
[13:29] herman Bergson: to keep it simple...
[13:30] herman Bergson: we designate the class of bad kings with the name tyrant or dictator
[13:30] AndrewEagle01: Trump has always run businesses, with aggressive capitalism. Managing a country was not in his skills. In companies, there is little democracy
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aah well thats the way i have somewhat thought of it
[13:30] herman Bergson: Manenging businesses wasn't in his skills either if you see all his bankruptcies :-)
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as said, in all these cases one single dude have the power
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but yes there can be good and respected kings bit doctators are always evil
[13:31] AndrewEagle01: Nods
[13:31] herman Bergson: true, Bejiita...that is the scary part of the class of kings
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:32] herman Bergson: so we designed another system of government today
[13:32] oola Neruda: not just kings.... senators and representatives are easily bribed
[13:32] herman Bergson: which we call democracy
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:32] oola Neruda: in the end... it is whomever has the money
[13:32] herman Bergson: that is my point oola.....what we call democracy can have many faces in many different countries
[13:33] herman Bergson: and the big debate is of course...what face do you like the most...?
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:33] herman Bergson: The one that smiles at freedom and human rights, I'd say :-)
[13:34] herman Bergson: in 1815 they still didn't get that although the French revolutionaries, the Jacobins, had written a bill of the rights of the people and the citizen
[13:35] oola Neruda: smiles good..... or smiles sarcastically?
[13:35] herman Bergson: It is a slow learning process oola....
[13:36] AndrewEagle01: Democracy or dictatorship will essentially depend on the ruling elite
[13:36] herman Bergson: We still haven't figured out what is the best political and social system for a society...but in my opinion...Europe has made some progress
[13:36] herman Bergson: And THAT is the point Andrew.....
[13:37] herman Bergson: We need a political system to keep those elites in check :-)
[13:37] oola Neruda: was reading about the interest in owning your own broadcasting company... because you can say what you want if you get the license for entertainment.... and that many politicians are interested...... Putin, for example... but many many more...
[13:37] AndrewEagle01: Europe is more chaotic than it looks from the outside, believe me
[13:37] oola Neruda: China.... etc
[13:37] herman Bergson: To stimulate equal chances for every member of society
[13:38] herman Bergson: I agree..it isn't a simple black and white situation...
[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): how do you know Andrew?
[13:38] herman Bergson: But for instance...we have no system of voter suppression or gerrymandering in Europe
[13:39] AndrewEagle01: i live in Europe :)
[13:39] herman Bergson: to mention some example
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed thats not existing here, only in US
[13:40] herman Bergson: Question is of course...what means "chaotic"?
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well i guess nations in EU who cant agree ect about certain things
[13:41] herman Bergson: Is this chaotic or the free process of conflicting insights and interests...a general social process?
[13:41] AndrewEagle01: Agreeing to 27 countries is very complicated. the time to take out a law, the problem has disappeared
[13:42] AndrewEagle01: Herman : yes, i agree
[13:42] herman Bergson: Funny observation is that Europe isn't democratic at all to some extent....
[13:43] herman Bergson: For a number of cases all 27 countries have to day YES....otherwith it is a no go
[13:43] herman Bergson: so...if democracy is 50% +1....???
[13:43] AndrewEagle01: Can too many stakeholders with different interests harm democracy? it's an open question
[13:44] herman Bergson: Europe is the dictatorship of the minority rule...1 agains all others
[13:44] AndrewEagle01: Democracy is the dictum of the majority in general
[13:44] herman Bergson: Like that Democrat Man....something....
[13:45] herman Bergson: oola...what is his nam
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[13:45] herman Bergson: name
[13:45] herman Bergson: Machin..Joe Machin or something like that
[13:45] herman Bergson: Manchin...
[13:45] oola Neruda: had a phone call... missed this last part
[13:45] herman Bergson: and the other one Sienema
[13:46] herman Bergson: On the other hand, it is an interesting choice of Europe to say...we all agree or it is a no go...
[13:47] theo Velde is offline.
[13:47] herman Bergson: They have to have this accepted by majority vote I guess :-))
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well indeed that is true
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess
[13:47] herman Bergson: funny, if you think about it
[13:48] oola Neruda: yes... those two... self interest only....
[13:48] oola Neruda: Green also
[13:49] oola Neruda: and Cruz and others as well
[13:49] oola Neruda: all of them on one level have self interest... but some are more ??????? than others
[13:49] AndrewEagle01: As in all democracies, assemblies are plagued by corruption. Corruption is in itself the natural enemy of democracy. So maybe to answer: democracy must flourish away from corruption
[13:50] oola Neruda: my mantra.... follow the money
[13:50] herman Bergson: I agree Andrew
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:51] herman Bergson: But for the lectures we have just arrived in 1815...then it was not yet called corruption...more...privileged and favours , I guess :-)
[13:52] herman Bergson: So..time to get ready for the next lecture to discover where this will lead to, I guess :-)
[13:52] oola Neruda: Diego Rivera could tell you
[13:52] herman Bergson: Unless you still have that essential question....thank you all again for your particiption :-)
[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thamk you Herman ツ
[13:53] AndrewEagle01: Yes indeed Herman, corruption has taken several different semantics throughout history, but the principle remains the same
[13:53] AndrewEagle01: Thank you Herman for interesting topic :)
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:53] oola Neruda: think KKK
[13:53] herman Bergson: Very true Andrew...politics is alsay a word game and playing with words :-)
[13:53] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thanks for the interesting lecture, King Herman and class :-)
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:54] oola Neruda: where/how did they get their power
[13:54] herman Bergson: You are welcome your Highness :-))
[13:54] herman Bergson: Class dismissed :-))
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (throws bribes to herman in the form of Droste pastils)
[13:54] bergfrau Apfelbaum: :-) clap clap
[13:54] AndrewEagle01: I hope to see you all again very soon. bye Everyone
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
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