In my opinion there are two kinds of people: believers and non-believers.That is a very general term, so let me specify it.
What I call a non-believer is someone who says: first see then believe. Some kind of sensory verification is a necessary condition for this person: I believe this is the case, that is, yes this is a fact.
The believer says: everything that is in my mind can be factual and real. Where the non-believer has only his senses as source of knowledge, the believer claims to have more sources.
Nowadays there are even people who would like to claim that everything is just a belief - they call it "an opinion". There are even those who have knowledge of alternative facts.
These additional sources can be anything, books, tealeaves, a holy oak, but most of all the mind itself. Not the mind as a passive interpreter of sensory input, but the mind as autonomous producer of thoughts.
In my first lecture of this project I mentioned George Berkeley (1685 - 1753) as a founding father of "idealism", a philosophy that gives priority to the mind as source of knowledge.
Oola sent me some links and URLs which were about Berkeley. So I had a closer look at him and I learned a lot more about him. The subtitle of my project is:
"The philosophy most people don't like..."and Berkeley is a perfect example of one of those people.
One of his famous writings is "Alciphron" published in 1732, translated into Dutch in 1733 (Leiden) and French in 1734 (The Hague).
The speed with which it was translated shows you, that the book must have been a bestseller in Europe and that in 1733!.
The book, more than 400 pages, written as a dialogue mainly takes place between four characters,
the free-thinkers Alciphron and Lysicles, Berkeley's spokesman Euphranor, and Crito, who acts as a spokesman for traditional Christianity. The usually silent narrator of the dialogue is called Dion.
What I find linguistically amusing is the word "freethinker". Berkely was an Anglican bishop and those who were not christian, were FREE thinkers?
Interesting word game.
For a better understanding of the context: although "AIciphron" is Berkeley’s most direct contribution to religious philosophy,
it must be remembered that the moral inspiration of all his metaphysical works was the struggle, in the midst of which he lived,
between those who sought to exclude and those who sought to retain faith in God, as the foundation and motive of human life.
The questions raised by English deists and atheistical free-thinkers of his time were for him the living form of the perennial struggle between Faith and Skepticism.
As you already may have concluded: the reason most people don't like materialism, may have something to do with how the materialist thinks about religion.
This controversy already existed more than 2000 years ago, but I'll get to that in another lecture. In the next one I'd like to show you
a typical way of debating between believer and non-believer, as presented by Berkely in one of the dialogues.
Thank you for your attention again.....
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
TABLE OF CONTENT -----------------------------------------------------------------
1 - 100 Philosophers 9 May 2009 Start of
2 - 25+ Women Philosophers 10 May 2009 this blog
3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking 10 May 2009
4 - Modern Theories of Ethics 29 Oct 2009
5 - The Ideal State 24 Febr 2010 / 234
6 - The Mystery of the Brain 3 Sept 2010 / 266
7 - The Utopia of the Free Market 16 Febr 2012 / 383
8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism 5 Sept 2012 / 413
9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist 6 Nov 2012 / 426
10 - Non-Western Philosophy 29 May 2013 / 477
11 - Why Science is Right 2 Sept 2014 / 534
12 - A Philosopher looks at Atheism 1 Jan 2015 / 557
13 - EVIL, a philosophical investigation 17 Apr 2015 / 580
14 - Existentialism and Free Will 2 Sept 2015 / 586
15 - Spinoza 2 Sept 2016 / 615
16 - The Meaning of Life 13 Febr 2017 / 637
17 - In Search of my Self 6 Sept 2017 / 670
18 - The 20th Century Revisited 3 Apr 2018 / 706
19 - The Pessimist 11 Jan 2020 / 819
20 - The Optimist 9 Febr 2020 / 824
21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream 8 Oct 2020 / 872
22 - A World Full of Patterns 1 Apr 2021 / 912
23 - The Concept of Freedom 8 Jan 2022 / 965
The Discussion
[13:16] herman Bergson: and welcome Jani ㋡
[13:16] Jani Myriam whispers: thx!
[13:17] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hi Jani
[13:18] herman Bergson: I just finished the lecture, Jani...maybe you can read it. Ill give you some time
[13:18] Jani Myriam: I'm going at it right now. :)
[13:18] bergfrau Apfelbaum: hello Jani:-)
[13:19] herman Bergson: Jani is a kind of mystery guest. She has visited my place several times but never ran into me....was never there,.....sorry for that
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): now ur here ㋡
[13:20] Jani Myriam: haha ... I sort of do a little circuit of places I think might be interesting every day, pretty much. Sorry for all the notification traffic! :)
[13:20] herman Bergson: finally yes, Bejiita :-)
[13:20] herman Bergson: No no, you are most welcome
[13:21] Jani Myriam: I've read the lecture at this point.
[13:21] herman Bergson: Anyway...today is the subject believers versus non-believers
[13:21] herman Bergson: Funny thing is that non-believer also used to be clled free thinkers
[13:22] oola Neruda: for me, it is more abstract... how can you tell what is true...even when it is actually real and in front of you...
[13:22] oola Neruda: anything from double doors... to the rainbow made by a prism
[13:23] herman Bergson: Depends on your definition of truth
[13:23] oola Neruda: reality
[13:23] herman Bergson: In the first place you have a statement....
[13:23] Jani Myriam: Berkeley was a subjective idealist.
[13:23] herman Bergson: and the statement has a truth value: true or false
[13:23] herman Bergson: He was indeed
[13:24] Jani Myriam: He and Kant had an interesting dialogue.
[13:24] herman Bergson: the next step is to establish a method to decide on the truthvalue
[13:24] oola Neruda: Kant... I've been waiting for you to bring him up
[13:25] Jani Myriam: I think it's in the Prolegomena (sp?) that he addresses Berkeley.
[13:25] herman Bergson: That may be the case but will require some more research on my behalf
[13:25] Jani Myriam: Three Dialogs is the one that has Berkeley's response.
[13:26] Jani Myriam: (sorry, I'm just drifting back to class!)
[13:26] Jani Myriam: 30 years ago
[13:26] herman Bergson: But here at this moment we aren't digging into the history of philosophy but into materialism as an ontology
[13:27] herman Bergson: materialism
[13:27] herman Bergson: Berkely used the term immaterialism
[13:27] herman Bergson: for his ideas
[13:28] herman Bergson: so...back to the concept of truth, which you brought up , oola
[13:28] oola Neruda: how can you tell if "it" is true
[13:29] herman Bergson: truth is closely related to the method of establishing the truth value of a statement
[13:29] herman Bergson: and there you see a big divide between believerrs and non-believers
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:30] oola Neruda: people.... and scientists for example
[13:30] herman Bergson: I think I can give you a nice demonstration of it in the next lecture
[13:31] herman Bergson: Well, scientific method to establish truth value of a statement is generally accepted
[13:31] oola Neruda: follow the money................................ ie..climate change
[13:31] herman Bergson: a non believer wouldn't have problems with that
[13:32] herman Bergson: Indeed, things are not that simple, there is not only truth but also specific interests in this world
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yep
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:33] herman Bergson: so truth and establishing a truth is not a simple black and white process in many cases
[13:34] herman Bergson: Nevertheless we possess a huge amount of established scientific knowledge about many subjects
[13:34] oola Neruda: also I sent the example of the double door.. where one side is a real door and the other is not completed as a door but merely as a look alike "door" that is non functional....
[13:35] herman Bergson: I have no problems with that
[13:35] oola Neruda: things that look alike but that are NOT alike
[13:35] herman Bergson: It simply produces the statement: This looks like a double door, but it is not
[13:35] oola Neruda: how we can make sense of them
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess
[13:36] Jani Myriam: I think I lost the plot.
[13:36] herman Bergson: Some insects look like tree leaves, but they are not
[13:36] oola Neruda: red herrings
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): in reality its indeed not all black and white
[13:36] oola Neruda: you cannot use the same assumptions for these kinds of queries
[13:37] herman Bergson: The plot is the question how to know something is true
[13:37] oola Neruda: YESSSSSSSSS
[13:37] oola Neruda: and your means of determining it
[13:37] oola Neruda: works for one but not the other
[13:37] herman Bergson: my answer is....look at the method whit which you establish the truth value of a statement
[13:38] Jani Myriam: You can't really if you take Descartes' premise that the only thing one can know for certain is that he or she exists.
[13:38] oola Neruda: Descartes is the one who got me on this messy path
[13:38] Jani Myriam: He's a scoundrel, basically. :)
[13:39] herman Bergson: that was his view, but he was somewhat mistaken
[13:39] herman Bergson: Ill address it in my next lecture too, but you must keep one thing in mind.....
[13:40] herman Bergson: those philosophers like Berkely and Descartes hadn't the slightest idea how the world was in a material sense....
[13:41] herman Bergson: they had no knowledge of biochemistry, hardly about anatomy, medicine, physics, nuclear theory, relativity and so on
[13:41] oola Neruda: and the methods of their examination of it
[13:41] Jani Myriam: I think they almost represent the last vestiges of the prior demon haunted worldview.
[13:41] herman Bergson: primitive....
[13:41] Jani Myriam: They were doing their best defense of it they could muster.
[13:42] herman Bergson: Descartes was dissecting brains to find the connection between body and mind
[13:42] oola Neruda: exactly
[13:42] oola Neruda: doing their best... walking in blind
[13:42] herman Bergson: ok...in a way he looked at the right place, but too primitive with to less neurobiological knowledge
[13:43] herman Bergson: and another thing....
[13:43] herman Bergson: Descartes said I am.....
[13:43] Jani Myriam: I think therefore I am.
[13:43] oola Neruda: nods
[13:44] Jani Myriam: cogito ergo sum
[13:44] herman Bergson: But he has no explanation for the origine of this I
[13:44] oola Neruda: nods again
[13:44] herman Bergson: yes yes...but I am not interested in the thinking part of the statement at the moment :-)
[13:44] Jani Myriam nods
[13:45] herman Bergson: He noticed this Identity.....where did it come from that it could say I think therefore I am
[13:46] Jani Myriam: The pineal gland. :)
[13:46] herman Bergson: Well get to all such issues in coming lectures, no worries
[13:46] herman Bergson: He thought so indeed Jani
[13:46] herman Bergson: Because this was the only thing in the brain of which he didn't find two halves
[13:47] Jani Myriam: Makes sense! :)
[13:48] herman Bergson: so...do you now have some more insight in your question about establishing truth oola?
[13:49] oola Neruda: back to the double doors.... when you approach one real door...the other NOT A DOOR but looks like one... you are tempted to examine both from one point of view...that they act the same...
[13:50] oola Neruda: your assumption is too ..... shaky
[13:50] oola Neruda: and you don't know it
[13:50] herman Bergson: No problem...just test it, if your observation is correct
[13:51] oola Neruda: some things of this sort are very difficult to test...
[13:51] oola Neruda: especially with science being not so far along in those days
[13:51] Jani Myriam: Perhaps we have exhausted the topic?
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): to go for a game dev reference of mine, use casting = check if object really is what it is supposed to be
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and verify
[13:52] herman Bergson: Let me put some oil on the fire so you have something to think about...:-))
[13:52] Jani Myriam: Or make a type assertion if you use Go. :)
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): here i used Unreal Engine as reference
[13:52] herman Bergson: The dichotomy believer/non-believer js nonsense.....
[13:53] herman Bergson: all science is also based on beliefs...so there are only believers
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): there u cast to an object to make sure its really the correct object and from there u go success or fail
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but its different also doing it with a digital machine and in real life
[13:53] herman Bergson: beliefs
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): what is true and what is false
[13:53] Jani Myriam: This is a true but very unwelcome truth in a materialist age.
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as u said its not absolute
[13:53] oola Neruda: just basic assumpthions... they look alike so they are alike
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa
[13:54] oola Neruda: trouble
[13:54] Jani Myriam: I sometimes think Berkeley was right.
[13:54] herman Bergson: Well...think it over.....We are all believers, one way or the other....what to do next? :0
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i say true to that one
[13:54] Jani Myriam: To be is to be perceived.
[13:54] oola Neruda: test things
[13:54] Jani Myriam: I feel like Phillip K Dick could also have written that.
[13:55] herman Bergson: Ok...something to ponder about....just attend the enxt lecture for more fun :-))
[13:55] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your participation again :-)
[13:56] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....
[1[13:56] Jani Myriam: Thanks so much and nice to finally meet you Herman
[13:56] herman Bergson: thank you for your appreciation Jani
[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): tricky but interesting
[13:56] herman Bergson: My pleasure...
[13:57] herman Bergson: I hope I havent disappointed you :-))
[13:57] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you Herman and class! was interesting again!
[13:57] Jani Myriam: Oh god no. This brought me back to some really fascinating years when I was in college.
[13:57] herman Bergson: that is where I spend almost all my life
[13:58] herman Bergson: ^+^
[13:58] Jani Myriam: The ivory tower is the dream!
[13:58] herman Bergson: The Ivory Tower is a place for builders in SL :-))
[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:59] Jani Myriam: I love how you're bringing it into SL so we can experience some of that sense also.
[13:59] herman Bergson: thank you ㋡
[13:59] bergfrau Apfelbaum: yay
[14:00] herman Bergson: the class exists already since November 2007
[14:00] bergfrau Apfelbaum: yay
[14:00] herman Bergson: this was lecture 1013 ㋡
[14:00] Jani Myriam: Good lord. That's as old as my avatar.
[14:00] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[14:01] herman Bergson: 16 years 5 months and 1 day to be exact, Jani ...your age I mean :-))
[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its a while indeed
[14:02] herman Bergson: oola is 5 months older ^_^
[14:02] oola Neruda: really?
[14:02] Jani Myriam shakes fists at heavens
[14:02] oola Neruda: hmmm
[14:02] Jani Myriam: NOOOO!!!!
[14:02] Jani Myriam: :)
[14:02] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[14:03] bergfrau Apfelbaum: lol
[14:03] herman Bergson: I am one month younger than oola ^_^
[14:03] oola Neruda: where did the time go?
[14:03] herman Bergson: yes oola....it is amazing.....
[14:03] herman Bergson: Also when you look at the list of projects we have done
[14:04] oola Neruda: absolutey
[14:04] oola Neruda: sp... oops
[14:04] herman Bergson: I still love it :-)
[14:05] herman Bergson: Keeps my brain running ^_^
[14:05] Jani Myriam: I love the idea that we are the modern day member's of Plato's academy.
[14:05] Jani Myriam: Just like in the picture.
[14:05] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[14:05] herman Bergson: yes we are :-))
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