In our previous discussion oola addressed the issue of TRUTH. Today an example how Berkely dealt with the matter in his 'Alciphron".
Let me first explain what the situation is. Debating here are two persons. Alciphron, the free-thinker and Euphranor, the 'voice of Berkely , the Anglican bishop.
Alciphron says: if there is only one truth, people have so many opinions about god. There can be no truth in those at all.
Then Euphranor replies and I quote the original text. It runs from *** to ***
*** Euphranor: That truth is constant and uniform I freely own, and that consequently opinions repugnant to each other cannot all be true :
but I think it will not hence follow they are all alike false.
If, among various opinions about the same thing, one be grounded on clear and evident reasons, that is to be thought true,
and others only so far as they consist with it. Reason is the same, and rightly applied will lead to the same conclusions, in all times and places. ***
In other words, there may be a multitude of different opinions, but that doesn't imply that all are false. One can be true, Euphranor says.
An answer that he could have given today in the current world of fake news, alternative facts and conspiracy theories.
Now, pay attention, here comes the fun. Euphranor wants to show Alciphron, that he has an argument, that logically entails that this one truth is among the many opinions.
or alt least to convince him that his point of view; many opinions mean there is no single truth is not tenable. Here is the dialog....
*** Alciphron: But still it would be a satisfaction if all men thought the same way; difference of opinions implying uncertainty.
Euphranor: Tell me, Alciphron, what you take to be the cause of a lunar eclipse?
Alciphron: The shadow of the earth interposing between the sun and moon.
Euphranor: Are you sure of this ?
Alciphron: Undoubtedly.
Euphranor: Are all mankind agreed in this truth ?
Alciphron: By no means. Ignorant and barbarous people assign different ridiculous causes of this appearance.
Euphranor: It seems, then, there are different opinions about the nature of an eclipse ?
Alciphron: There are.
Euphranor: And nevertheless one of these opinions is true.
Alciphron: It is.
Euphranor: Diversity, therefore, of opinions about a thing, doth not hinder that the thing may be, and one of the opinions concerning it may be true ?
Alciphron: I acknowledge it.
Euphranor: It should seem, therefore, that your argument against the belief of a God, from the variety of opinions about His nature, is not conclusive.
Nor do I see how you can conclude against the truth of any moral or religious tenet, from the various opinions of men upon the same subject.
***
I love this exchange: when it works here (in astronomy) then it works there too. It isn't logic, but reasoning by analogy.
An often used method of reasoning by believers to convince non-believers. Sounds convincing but it doesn't proof anything, nor is the conclusion logically justified.
Another interesting detail is, and it is 1732, keep that in mind, this wonderful statement by Euphranor:
*** Reason is the same, and rightly applied will lead to the same conclusions, in all times and places. ***
Philosophers in those days assumed that their thinking showed the existence of Reason, as if this is some clear cut tool. It gives you so much to think about.
Thank you for your attention again .....
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
TABLE OF CONTENT -----------------------------------------------------------------
1 - 100 Philosophers 9 May 2009 Start of
2 - 25+ Women Philosophers 10 May 2009 this blog
3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking 10 May 2009
4 - Modern Theories of Ethics 29 Oct 2009
5 - The Ideal State 24 Febr 2010 / 234
6 - The Mystery of the Brain 3 Sept 2010 / 266
7 - The Utopia of the Free Market 16 Febr 2012 / 383
8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism 5 Sept 2012 / 413
9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist 6 Nov 2012 / 426
10 - Non-Western Philosophy 29 May 2013 / 477
11 - Why Science is Right 2 Sept 2014 / 534
12 - A Philosopher looks at Atheism 1 Jan 2015 / 557
13 - EVIL, a philosophical investigation 17 Apr 2015 / 580
14 - Existentialism and Free Will 2 Sept 2015 / 586
15 - Spinoza 2 Sept 2016 / 615
16 - The Meaning of Life 13 Febr 2017 / 637
17 - In Search of my Self 6 Sept 2017 / 670
18 - The 20th Century Revisited 3 Apr 2018 / 706
19 - The Pessimist 11 Jan 2020 / 819
20 - The Optimist 9 Febr 2020 / 824
21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream 8 Oct 2020 / 872
22 - A World Full of Patterns 1 Apr 2021 / 912
23 - The Concept of Freedom 8 Jan 2022 / 965
The Discussion
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): short and sweet
[13:21] herman Bergson: So, the main idea is....many opinions here and yet one is true.....so in other cases of many opinions this conclusion applies there too
[13:22] herman Bergson: Complete nonsense, but it is a trick to convince people
[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) whispers: don't you think it depends on if there is really a truth about the issue discussed?
[13:23] herman Bergson: Berkely needs it to be able to say....among the many opinions about a god...there is one true opinion......
[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) whispers: don't you think it depends on if there is really a truth about the issue discussed?
[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is what i meant i guess
[13:23] herman Bergson: That is the whole point Gemma
[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:24] herman Bergson: Berkely equates here a physical phenomenon and its factual truth with whatever situation of a mutlitude of opinions
[13:25] herman Bergson: You may have whatever opinion about gravity you like....
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so according to this there HAS to be one god and he compares it with the cause of the solar eclipse which has a physical cause
[13:25] herman Bergson: but when you step over the edge you go down
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I think they both have points tho
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): in their views
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): interesting comparison though
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): there are many things that we really don't know yet for sure in science
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but learn every day
[13:26] herman Bergson: He does not say...there HAS to be a god....he says...though there are many opinions about god...there can be a true one yet, like there are many opinions about an eclipse but there is only one true opinion
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well maybe he is right!!!!!!!
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we don't really know
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:27] herman Bergson: Oh dear, Gemma....THAT is the hot issue
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): what if the true alternative is not there but somewhere else, something we don't know about yet
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we know
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): all these years
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right
[13:28] herman Bergson smiles
[13:28] herman Bergson: yes
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): there is always a true alternative, the question is is it on our list?
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not yet
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): do we know about it yet
[13:28] herman Bergson: And this theme of materialism makes it even hottter :-)
[13:29] herman Bergson: So, guess, we gonna have an interesting journey here
[13:29] herman Bergson: The fun is, we don't have to proof the non-existence of a god....
[13:30] herman Bergson: If we were obliged to that we also have to proof the non-existence of whatever someone says, that exist
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): never happen
[13:31] herman Bergson: indeed...we sit back and let the others prove their point :-)
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:31] herman Bergson: That is what Berkeley also does in his 'Alciphron'
[13:32] herman Bergson: In one of the dialogues, nr 7 , if I am not mistaken, he comes with some proof of the existence of god....
[13:32] herman Bergson: The dialog I showed you today....part of nr. 1, is a prelude, I assume
[13:33] herman Bergson: But don't worry...next lecture we go full materialistic :-))
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ohoh
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hope i can get here Tuesday
[13:34] herman Bergson: yes Gemma, fasten seatbelt ^_^
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:35] herman Bergson: The other part of the story.....this concept of Reason.....
[13:35] herman Bergson: I found that fascinating too
[13:35] herman Bergson: I mean....in 1732....they hadn't the slightest idea of neurosciences....
[13:36] bergfrau Apfelbaum: i am in Croatia and i am spending money.... lol
[13:36] herman Bergson: for those people thinking was , I assume, the evidence of reason
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): OH RIGHT!
[13:36] herman Bergson: you are now there Bergie?
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): having fun?
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): drink some good wine for me
[13:38] bergfrau Apfelbaum: sunday we start:-)
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah ok
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaaa nice
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:38] bergfrau Apfelbaum: sry rl afk!
[13:38] herman Bergson: Out of reason...?
[13:39] herman Bergson: Well...just try to figure out what this REASON is in yourself...:-)
[13:39] herman Bergson: The more you think about ti the more confusing it becomes
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right!!!!!!!!!!!!
[13:40] herman Bergson: Especially when is said that reason leads at all times and in all places to the same conclusion
[13:41] herman Bergson: Maybe one part of reason is the requierment of the use of logic
[13:41] herman Bergson: on the other hand,,,,
[13:41] herman Bergson: when someone says....please be reasonable....
[13:41] herman Bergson: there is no logic involved but the weighing of values
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:42] bergfrau Apfelbaum: back ㋡
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): bw ㋡
[13:43] herman Bergson: So...homework today is....figure out where you find that REASON in your mind :-))
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): will look in the file cabinets
[13:43] herman Bergson: REASON = RATIO
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): of my mind
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah ㋡
[13:43] bergfrau Apfelbaum: it is confusing and exciting at the same time... even in my RL kitchen
[13:43] CONNIE Eichel is online.
[13:44] herman Bergson: OK.... nice for the weekend to ponder about :-))
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[[13:45] herman Bergson: ok...thank you all again...:-)
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:45] herman Bergson: Time for enjoying the weekend.....class dismissed
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