The reintroduction of Lucretius’ poem "De Rerum Nature" (Of the Nature of Things),written 50 BCE, into European intellectual society in 1417 acted like a shot of adrenalin into the bloodstream of art, philosophy and science.
The Protestant Reformation, the Renaissance and the subsequent release of science from the Church’s Aristotelian philosophy was followed
by extraordinary leaps in the understanding of the world, the ultimate expression of which was Newton’s 'Principia Mathematica" (1687), although Newton himself was not a materialist.
I really try to imagine how that must have been, Europe in the Renaissance. Like today there must have lived highly intelligent scholars, but because education was only for the elite, it was just a hand full.
Today many have attended colleges or universities. We are overwhelmed by tons of information and knowledge on practically every subject. We can use Google Search and ChatGPT. If it is about information, the sky is the limit,but how was it around 1450.
There was no fast way of communication or exchange of information. The only source of information was books. And those book also must have been hard to get and cost a fortune.
And then they find the writings of Lucretius. I wonder how fast this book was distributed in multiple copies. But this handful of great minds of those days got a copy and they were impressed by the insights Lucretius had to offer.
You have to keep in mind that in that early period of the Renaissance there was a real craze among the intellectual elite: collecting and studying the texts of the Ancient Greeks and Romans.
They were convinced that great insights could be found there, valuable knowledge that had been lost.
And then they read this in De Rerum Natura:
But only Nature's aspect and her law,
which, teaching us, has this prolog:
Nothing from nothing ever yet was born.
Meantime, when once we know from nothing still
nothing can be create, we shall divine
more clearly what we seek: those elements
from which alone all things created are,
and how accomplished by no tool of Gods.
That last sentence is almost equivalent to saying, that there never was a creation, where a god created the earth out of nothing. And then in 7400 verses these few scholars and scientists read about the nature of things.
Or take this:
And now, since I have taught that things cannot
be born from nothing, nor the same, when born,
to nothing be recalled, doubt not my words,
because our eyes no primal germs perceive;
for, mark, those bodies which, though known to be
in this our world, are yet invisible:
Thus Nature ever by unseen bodies works.
This is a direct information about the structure of nature, of matter, that it is composed of what Lucretius calls "primal germs" or "procreant atoms". Scientist in those days must have been speechless because of this whole new approach.
The poem brought a new perspective into European thought, after 1000 years of being totally dominated by Christian teaching
that was founded on the works of Aristotle and Plato as well as the Bible, and which identified these sources as the truth and not open to criticism.
Many of those who were entranced both by the beauty and the ideas of Lucretius’ poem were devout Christians who retained their religious convictions.
How was it possible to hold what at first appears to be a paradoxical, if not contradictory, intellectual stance to Christian thought.
A possible explanation: rediscovered ancient texts also re-introduced a tradition of skepticism, which essentially challenges the grounds on which human knowledge of any kind claims to find support.
The Greek Pyrrho (c.360 – c. 270 BC) and the Roman Stoic Sextus Empiricus (mid-late 2nd century AD) are the two most famous classical skeptics,
and their arguments were re-discovered in the same period as the re-emergence of "De Rerum Natura".
These ideas interacted with a longstanding strand in Christian thought that questioned the place of REASON in religious belief, propounding the alternative view that religious belief was founded solely on FAITH. This stance came to be known as fideism.
The upshot was that religion became detached from natural philosophy for many of the leading philosophers and scientists of the time,
and all manner of speculations about empirical and metaphysical issues could be tolerated, provided they were not understood to challenge received religious doctrine.
That was a smart policy of the Christian churches and re-opened the door for unhindered materialism. The dichotomy reason and faith, that grew in those days, is still popular.
Just think of all those people in churches, in politics and everywhere else who are able to deny facts and justify this by referring to their faith as the real source of the truth.
As you see, homo sapiens is consistent in the way he uses his brain through the centuries.
Thank you all again and today I take the Fifth.....^_^
Main Sources:
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
TABLE OF CONTENT -----------------------------------------------------------------
1 - 100 Philosophers 9 May 2009 Start of
2 - 25+ Women Philosophers 10 May 2009 this blog
3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking 10 May 2009
4 - Modern Theories of Ethics 29 Oct 2009
5 - The Ideal State 24 Febr 2010 / 234
6 - The Mystery of the Brain 3 Sept 2010 / 266
7 - The Utopia of the Free Market 16 Febr 2012 / 383
8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism 5 Sept 2012 / 413
9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist 6 Nov 2012 / 426
10 - Non-Western Philosophy 29 May 2013 / 477
11 - Why Science is Right 2 Sept 2014 / 534
12 - A Philosopher looks at Atheism 1 Jan 2015 / 557
13 - EVIL, a philosophical investigation 17 Apr 2015 / 580
14 - Existentialism and Free Will 2 Sept 2015 / 586
15 - Spinoza 2 Sept 2016 / 615
16 - The Meaning of Life 13 Febr 2017 / 637
17 - In Search of my Self 6 Sept 2017 / 670
18 - The 20th Century Revisited 3 Apr 2018 / 706
19 - The Pessimist 11 Jan 2020 / 819
20 - The Optimist 9 Febr 2020 / 824
21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream 8 Oct 2020 / 872
22 - A World Full of Patterns 1 Apr 2021 / 912
23 - The Concept of Freedom 8 Jan 2022 / 965
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:28] herman Bergson: Same answer.....
[13:28] herman Bergson: Gemma got the joke :-)
[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): kwartje valt bij mij niet
[13:29] Al Michigan: de parkeermeter?
[13:29] Al Michigan: ksnapput nie
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Do you think that the scientists of that time when the poem came back already quietly knew or believed the materialistic thought already?
[13:29] herman Bergson: There has been a video released of Trump of his deposition for Leticia James in NY.....and he took the Fifth in a period of four hours 400 times
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes 400 times
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): anwered nothing
[13:30] herman Bergson: I have thought about that Gemma....
[13:30] Lecturehall: 2023-02-02 [23:30] oola Neruda
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I think they did
[13:30] Exhibition 1.0: There was someone at the Exhibition: oola Neruda!
[13:30] Al Michigan: Trump was wise, everything he would off said would ve been used to smear him.
[13:30] herman Bergson: And there already was a problem....the helio-centrism that was discovered and refuted biblical theories
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed i watched that trump one and i just WTF!
[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): welcome Oola
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hi oola
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): he tries to get away all he can3
[13:31] herman Bergson: so ...the believe in the Aristotelian physics was already growing
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hi Oola3
[13:31] Dings (dings.digital): first dogma makes you strong, but after a while it makes you weak, because to many mistakes become obvious.
[13:31] herman Bergson: stop..no T anymore please
[13:32] herman Bergson: That was the point Dings...yes....
[13:32] herman Bergson: you cant stop the paradigm change when anomalies increase to appear
[13:33] herman Bergson: But I still try to feel how it must have been in those days....
[13:33] bergfrau Apfelbaum: hi Oola :-)
[13:33] herman Bergson: that silent world....reading such a book by candle light.....
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and so much superstition among those who did nto read
[13:33] herman Bergson: Books must have been magical in those days
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): id find that quite cozy now, being in an old big library doing that
[13:34] herman Bergson: yes Gemma...
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or even evil things
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): books that is
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but as said then just a time passer for me, it those days was the only way, not just a mood changer
[13:34] Al Michigan: but to my knowledge, the power off the RK church was very faded in the 15th and 16th century, i was thinking, the climate in europs very mild
[13:34] Dings (dings.digital): I guess in those days some must have felt it is like a beginning, a glimpse into a new found land, where knowledge and hope are to be discovered
[13:34] Al Michigan: but in 17th century there was small ice age, and church took back power...
[13:35] herman Bergson: Yes Dings...might have been something like that indeed...
[13:35] Al Michigan: and so: Calvin.
[13:35] herman Bergson: the old alchemy theories disappeared and the atomism of Lucretiius opened new worlds
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:37] herman Bergson: In the 16th and 17th century the power of the Protestant churches was strong....
[13:37] herman Bergson: these centuries were suffering under many religious wars
[13:37] Al Michigan: yes!
[13:37] herman Bergson: But materialism had found its way back into the intellectual circles
[13:38] Dings (dings.digital): enthusiasm and fascination play a big part probably, too. their ChatGPT was Lucretius :-)
[13:38] herman Bergson: One thing we must keep in mind....
[13:38] herman Bergson: RIGHT Dings....
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ha interesting dings
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:38] herman Bergson: What happens here in 10 minutes in exchanges of information, took ten years in those days.....
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true
[13:39] theo Velde is offline.
[13:39] herman Bergson: What fascinates me too about those days.....
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sending our messages back and forth with horse
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or something equally slow
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): carrying them
[13:39] herman Bergson: These European intellecuals exchanged LETTERS....
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): todays we transfer data with speed of light
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and meet in virtual rooms
[13:40] herman Bergson: how i on earth did they do that ....good for a study on the history of the postal services :-))
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmmm indeed
[13:40] Dings (dings.digital): "I have to answer this letter. Can someone invent email already?"
[13:40] herman Bergson: YEs BEjiita....that makes it so hard to get the feel of the history of those centuries
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well as i said before about the library, it was the only way then
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but indeed a heck of work to get anything done
[13:41] Al Michigan: In england the King ordered special servants to read ALL enveloppes off post letters sent by mail. Every one.
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): need LOT of patience
[13:41] herman Bergson: They even hadn't pigeons for the job in those days Dings :-))
[13:41] Dings (dings.digital): :)
[13:41] herman Bergson: They ate them:-)
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Imagine the monks sitting for hours copying and copying
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): feathers and all!
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:41] herman Bergson: yes...day in day out....
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm yes
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): for free
[13:42] herman Bergson: so amazing.....
[13:42] herman Bergson: I love that period of history
[13:42] Al Michigan: imagine someone workking at a steelfactory, like tata,...working like horse every f** day...
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and computers were just people who did calculus by hand
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): another era
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): maybe had an abacus
[13:43] herman Bergson: There were wrkplaces like that in those days too Al....
[13:43] Dings (dings.digital): yes, computer was their name. it was humans
[13:43] Al Michigan: I know :-)
[13:43] herman Bergson: have been there all through history...
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the term existed 100s of years before the machine
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sewers
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): weavers
[13:43] herman Bergson: exploiting people is a common phenomenon....
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but since a computer still do all their work by binary math the name still holds
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): tanners
[13:43] herman Bergson: right Gemma
[13:43] herman Bergson: Lots of dirty work
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): even with my modern ASUS ROG workstation
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its still math but VERY fast
[13:44] herman Bergson: You use such medieval apparatuses Bejiita? :-))
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its still a computer,
[13:44] Al Michigan: well i do not know, math back then is not math off today...
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:44] herman Bergson grins
[13:45] herman Bergson: Don't lose the key to rewind it Bejiita :-)))
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but they could calculate by the stars too
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well indeed, to run something like Unreal Engine 5 or Fortnite or any modern AAA game takes a bit more
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and with NO errors whatsoever
[13:46] herman Bergson: Well. I gues you all have the feel of how it must have been, the introduction of Lucretius in the intellectual world of europe
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): not to mention robots and CNC machines (including 3d printers) repeatable exact motion over and over again
[13:46] herman Bergson: Is was a slow process as we are so used to instant services....
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true
[13:46] herman Bergson: But it succeeded
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and today a child's first word is often IIIIPAAAD! or IPHOOONE!
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol
[13:47] herman Bergson: So...today we covered a 400 years of history and have arrived around 1789....
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like they have always been around3
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:47] Dings (dings.digital): on the other hand they had more time to delight and enjoy things and ideas
[13:47] Al Michigan: little children hate these i phones and i pads.
[13:47] herman Bergson: So, get ready for the new era....
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa well indeed, today we live in a stress and consumption society where u are supposed to both work shop and get and leave the kids at school/daycare at the exact same time
[13:48] herman Bergson: Unless you still have an unanswered question.....
[13:49] Al Michigan: why was calvijn not a materialist?>
[13:49] herman Bergson: I think you all again for your participation....
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): glad to see yu put all the toilet paper away bejita
[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[13:49] Al Michigan: Or was he?
[13:49] herman Bergson: Simple...because he was a biblical christian
[13:49] Dings (dings.digital): thank you herman
[13:49] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you Herman and class!
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hahahaa well i decided to change to a more pohilosopical themed outfit
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:49] herman Bergson: Class dismissed.....
[13:49] herman Bergson: By the way....
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nice again
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): see you all soon
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