Within modern philosophy, there are sometimes taken to be two fundamental conceptions of idealism. Number one is the idea
that something mental, the mind, spirit, reason, will, is the ultimate foundation of all reality. This has been called “metaphysical” or “ontological idealism”.
Number two is the position that, although the existence of something independent of the mind is conceded, everything that we can know about this mind-independent “reality” is held
to be so permeated by the creative, formative, or constructive activities of the mind that all claims to knowledge must be considered, in some sense,
to be a form of self-knowledge. We only know what is in our head or brain. This has been called “formal” or “epistemological idealism”.
Berkely is an example of position one and the famous Immanuel Kant can be regarded as an example of position two. We'll leave the chapter on idealism here and continue the journey into materialism.
The scenery of materialism changes in the 19th century. Till then materialist philosophers had been rather cautious in preventing serious conflicts with the authorities. An important reason was of course, that atheism was a logical implication of materialism.
This changed when two men entered the arena, Karl Marx and Charles Darwin. To begin with Marx. We all know that we have to dislike him, even fear him, or at least his ideas, which lead to socialism, marxism, or even communism.
Let's put that aside for a moment and see what Marx thought about materialism and what he added to the materialist theory. Materialism is complimented by Marx for understanding the physical reality of the world,
but is criticized for ignoring the active role of the human subject in creating the world we perceive.
Idealism understands the active nature of the human subject but confines it to thought or contemplation. The world is created through the categories, like extensiveness or causality, we impose upon it.
Marx combines the insights of both traditions to propose a view in which human beings do indeed create, or at least transform, the world they find themselves in,
but this transformation happens not in thought but through actual material activity, not through the imposition of sublime concepts but through the sweat of their brow, with picks and shovels.
Material life determines, or at least “conditions” social life, and so the primary direction of social explanation is from material production to social forms, and thence to forms of consciousness.
Along these lines of thinking materialism became related to social action and what made materialism explicitly unpopular was Marx's conviction
that the people were alienated from the real and natural community it formed, and were misled by a false idea of community as expressed by religion.
To quote Marx himself: "Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and de soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people,
The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness." -end quote-
Marx was influenced by the German philosopher Feuerbach (1804 - 1872). Feuerbach's contribution to the materialist tradition may be considered in two aspects: first a critique of idealism and second a critique of Christianity.
He turns idealism, which was popular in his time, on its head and argues that rather than thought, or spirit, being primary, it is matter that is primary and from which thought emerges secondary.
Correspondingly, he sees the Christian of god as a projection of human faculties. The predicates that religious believers apply to God are in fact predicates that properly apply to the human species-essence of which God is just an imaginary representation.
These were the shoulders Marx stood on and you can imagine that it made some authorities nervous. And what is more, it brought materialism and atheism in the open and on the stage of public and political debate.
We all know history and all that has happened under the banner of Marxism, socialism, and communism.
These aspects aren't the subject matter of this project, so we let them sleep for now. All we can say now is, that this history doesn't disqualify materialism as a feasible philosophy.
Thank you for your attention again....
Main Sources:
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
TABLE OF CONTENT -----------------------------------------------------------------
1 - 100 Philosophers 9 May 2009 Start of
2 - 25+ Women Philosophers 10 May 2009 this blog
3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking 10 May 2009
4 - Modern Theories of Ethics 29 Oct 2009
5 - The Ideal State 24 Febr 2010 / 234
6 - The Mystery of the Brain 3 Sept 2010 / 266
7 - The Utopia of the Free Market 16 Febr 2012 / 383
8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism 5 Sept 2012 / 413
9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist 6 Nov 2012 / 426
10 - Non-Western Philosophy 29 May 2013 / 477
11 - Why Science is Right 2 Sept 2014 / 534
12 - A Philosopher looks at Atheism 1 Jan 2015 / 557
13 - EVIL, a philosophical investigation 17 Apr 2015 / 580
14 - Existentialism and Free Will 2 Sept 2015 / 586
15 - Spinoza 2 Sept 2016 / 615
16 - The Meaning of Life 13 Febr 2017 / 637
17 - In Search of my Self 6 Sept 2017 / 670
18 - The 20th Century Revisited 3 Apr 2018 / 706
19 - The Pessimist 11 Jan 2020 / 819
20 - The Optimist 9 Febr 2020 / 824
21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream 8 Oct 2020 / 872
22 - A World Full of Patterns 1 Apr 2021 / 912
23 - The Concept of Freedom 8 Jan 2022 / 965
The Discussion
[13:18] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman
[13:18] Jane Fossett: :-)
[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ,:)
[13:19] herman Bergson: Well, the beast is freed....atheism.....
[13:19] herman Bergson: Connected with a social economical theory
[13:20] herman Bergson: I am glad to see that it doesn't upset you that much :-))
[13:20] Jane Fossett: Doesnt knowledge of god imply materialism? God implies a material basis for the knowledge of his existence...
[13:20] Somedirtycat Saule: If religious ppl wa so worried there must been something they feared to lose. As God seems to not be easy to lose it must be some wordhly privileges
[13:21] Somedirtycat Saule: materialistic privileges lol
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well
[13:21] herman Bergson: My opinion is that religion is a matter of power and politics, control over the people.....
[13:21] Somedirtycat Saule: I hope i insinuated that
[13:22] herman Bergson: and secondly the arrogance of believing that they as religious people hold the holy grail of moral principles
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): exactly, it was just brainwashing already back then and the church leaders did not really believed in god already back then, just a way to control the "dumb" masses
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): one theory
[13:22] Jane Fossett: Well even in a more basic sense... the foundation of Logic implies some level of materialism
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and thus they knew they could possibly loose that control
[13:22] herman Bergson: Could you elaborate on that Jane?
[13:23] Jane Fossett: and now Quantum contradicts logic
[13:23] herman Bergson: Seems so, yes...:-)
[13:23] Jane Fossett: QED
[13:24] herman Bergson: Which shows that logic also is a product of our brain....
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): But quantum effects at least are proven and there are even working quantum computers now
[13:24] Somedirtycat Saule: Still Einstein thought it was bogus
[13:24] Jane Fossett: yes yes yes
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so thats no hocus pocus
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but its tricky to wrap head around it for sure
[13:24] oola Neruda: I see religioius ideas as a mother.... how can she protect her child? She needs the child to behave but more than that, she needs people "our there" not to mislead, harm, or otherwise hurt her child
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:25] Somedirtycat Saule: Aw sorry afk for rest of discussion, dog emergency
[13:25] herman Bergson: Yes oola, that is the psychological approach....the apparently human need to have a guide...
[13:25] herman Bergson: a parent....
[13:25] Jane Fossett: dog is just 'God' backwards
[13:26] herman Bergson: Never thought of that.... sounds cynical
[13:26] oola Neruda: also, there are ways to comfort people when bad things happen... especially when there is othing they can do about it... like funerals.... saying goodbye...
[13:26] Jane Fossett: I've never met a cynical dog
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaah
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): god maybe is a dog, idk
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least dogs can make u happy
[13:27] herman Bergson: If I am not mistaken cynical is derived from the greek woord dog... kune..not sure
[13:27] Jane Fossett: wonders: What does religion have to do with philosophy anyway...
[13:28] herman Bergson: As for me, nothing Jane....
[13:28] herman Bergson: But culturally and socially we can't deny the existence of religion....
[13:28] Jane Fossett: archaic explanations for physical reality
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well we question stuff in philosophy so questioning religions to be or not to be is a valid subject i think
[13:28] Jane Fossett: ok true.
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): just like everything else
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): why is this or that
[13:29] herman Bergson: Just look at the ceiling here and see all thousands of gods homo sapiens has prayed to
[13:29] Jane Fossett: :-)
[13:29] herman Bergson: My real problem is our brain.....they way we think....
[13:29] theo Velde is online.
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the neat little list, its almost as long as all the c++ variables I've put in Unreal Engine scripts today
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or not really
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed LOTS of gods
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): over the times
[13:30] herman Bergson: I mean...wwe see reality as we describe it...and here I call it the material world
[13:30] herman Bergson: all kinds of animals see a totally different reality
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess
[13:31] Jane Fossett: we are all animals
[13:31] herman Bergson: That is my issue with quantum physics or Big Bang theory....
[13:31] Jane Fossett: living in a material world
[13:31] herman Bergson: yes we are, Jane
[13:31] Jane Fossett: :-)
[13:31] herman Bergson: Kant had that nice question......
[13:32] herman Bergson: As a student I had to read "Die Frage nach dem Ding" by Heidergger
[13:32] oola Neruda: what about quantum physics or Big Bang?
[13:32] herman Bergson: It means...how do we know Das Ding an Sich....the object as such....
[13:33] herman Bergson: Like the empiricists say...knowledge is based on sensory input.....
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): all we can do is analyze the data we can get from these phenomenons like James Webb and LHC
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and deduce from this
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): + math to make a theory to be proven with these tools
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and make the math work
[13:34] Jane Fossett: if i stop looking at the moon, does the moon go away? (einstein)
[13:34] herman Bergson: so we only have our senses....like all other animals have....and we all see a different world...the object as such we can nort see
[13:34] herman Bergson: That fascinates me,
[13:34] Jane Fossett: yes.
[13:34] herman Bergson: dor from a materialist point of view, this object must exist
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): It does in a game engine (It clears everything out of computer menory the player cant see) but in rl, no moon is still there
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): also that question if are false and none is there does it still make a sound
[13:35] herman Bergson: In that sense Kant is interesting....
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): still
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:36] herman Bergson: he accept the existence of a real world independent of our sensory experiences....
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its not just in our minds?
[13:36] herman Bergson: but yet says...it is our brain that organizes our sensory input and thus shapes a reality
[13:36] Jane Fossett: well thart is true
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well id say that is correct
[13:36] oola Neruda: my husband and I have been taking a class... for weeks now... on the universe.... and the explanation of all kinds of matters re: origin, interactions, results... blah blah blah... with math besides.... the astronomers have good reasons for the conclusions they come to
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:37] Jane Fossett: :-)
[13:37] herman Bergson: I can't deny that indeed Jane
[13:37] Jane Fossett: we process a small amount of the reality around us
[13:37] oola Neruda: I just wish we could leave the math out of it... but we can't
[13:37] herman Bergson: This makes it interesting to see how the materialist of today who likes to be called a physicalist is going to solve my question :-)
[13:38] herman Bergson: Another weird matter , oola
[13:38] herman Bergson: The world seems to be mathematical
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): language of the universe
[13:39] oola Neruda: the discussion is mathematical...
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): language
[13:39] herman Bergson: That is...the language of mathematics appears to be a perfect way to describe reality
[13:39] Jane Fossett: math is logic
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): this is also what makes it possible for computers to represent just EVERYTHING using only math
[13:39] herman Bergson: That is what Betrant russell tried to proof in his Principia Mathematica.....
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): binary math even
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): to show images, play sounds, simulate stuff ect
[13:40] herman Bergson: Bertrand :-)
[13:40] oola Neruda: physics... and math .... hand in hand ...have a lot to say
[13:40] Jane Fossett: and many of the eccentricities of math may be relevant to our view of reality
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:40] herman Bergson: I still haven't a complete insight in all these related issues...
[13:41] Jane Fossett: example: why does Plank-bar constant include Pi?
[13:41] oola Neruda: for the universe, you need to get down to the basic "particle"... and go from there
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:41] herman Bergson: When I was a student I had the idea about our brain that it is the ruler with which we try to measure the ruler we hold in our hand
[13:42] oola Neruda: good way of seeing it
[13:42] herman Bergson: I mean....we analyse the brain with the brain we have....
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true
[13:42] Jane Fossett: if you have a bigger brain you don't have a bigger ruler :-)
[13:42] herman Bergson: very odd situation which we can not transcend
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): recursion
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sort of
[13:42] herman Bergson: indeed Bejiita
[13:43] herman Bergson: I still have no clear answer to such questions
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well recursion in programming is tricky enough, have tried that at least and made a total and undebuggable mess
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol
[13:43] herman Bergson: In that sense atheism is an easier subject in this context :-)
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its so hard to grasp in all forms
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least for me
[13:44] herman Bergson: yes recursion isn't easy
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed not
[13:45] Jane Fossett: perhaps we might start with atheism and then create a mathematic virtual universe that constructs God.
[13:45] herman Bergson: Now tou can ask it ChatGPT, Jane....
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (wonders if UE5 can do that, its quite good at simulating stuff as it is now)
[13:45] Jane Fossett: haha
[13:45] Jane Fossett: yes
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a god simulator
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): im on
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:46] oola Neruda: I don't see it as mathematical... I see it more like Buddha... who says to be a decent person in this world... behaving with kindness etc
[13:46] herman Bergson: At least one that gives answers :-))
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we already have goat simulator also made with UE so God simulator next maybe
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i think they used UE for
[13:47] Jane Fossett: i can see the new god answering all questions with : "7"
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or 42
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:47] Jane Fossett: haha yes
[13:47] herman Bergson: no no Jane....ahs to be 42 :-))
[13:47] oola Neruda: yes 42
[13:47] Jane Fossett: and i get burned at the stake
[13:47] Jane Fossett: haha
[13:48] herman Bergson: Well...I guess enough to think about for today including the meaning of life :-)
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): 42 i can put into UE easily, its just an integer, but what to do with that number later to actually simulate the meaning if lfe, that can be some complex algorithms
[13:48] herman Bergson: Maybe you can save the next question for the lecture of Thursday :-))
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well im up for the task!
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): after i have finished modeling Giethoorn :9
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:49] herman Bergson: Any question left unanswered :-))) ?
[13:49] Jane Fossett: thank you Prof Herman!\
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): starting taking shape now , made some cool houses im gonna throw in
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well another good one indeed
[13:49] herman Bergson: Then, Thank you all again for our interesting conversation....
[13:49] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....
[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): YAY! (yay!)
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nice again
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): always some interesting stuff
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