Sunday, January 24, 2016

596: The individual and Nietzsche

Last week I was reading “Individualism and Economic Order” by Friedrich A. Hayek. It was published in 1949.
Then it is always so rewarding that someone thinks along the same lines as I do, although he was first, but I hadn’t read him till now :-)
So …at least a few credits to myself. It was the first essay: Individualism: True and False.
There he discusses the concept of individualism as it originated from John Locke on the one hand and from Descartes on the other hand.
In fact the same dichotomy I make between Locke cum suis and the Continental philosophers. I have the same ideas about the concept of individualism.
I’ll get back to Hayek later of course. Now, however, we continue with the Continental philosophers and in this case Friedrich Nietzsche.
Like Kierkegaard Nietzsche wasn't a systematic philosopher, a philosopher with a consistent ontological, epistemological or metaphysical overall theory.
He too, like Kierkegaard would have in SL at least one alt avatar with whom he permanently would argue and discuss his own ideas.
The philosophical development of Nietzsche can be divided in three phases: the first phase is the period 
when he adored Schopenhauer and Wagner and the culture of the old Greek. A mix of Schopenhauerian pessimism and Wagnerian heroism.
The Will is for Schopenhauer the principle of life and it is what drives man. But we are at the mercy of this Will. 
Its restless striving for changes is rather a source of misery than of happiness. The only way to gain the victory over this will is
to concentrate on contemplation of it in a way you could compare with the buddhist approach to life.......
Nietzsche's first book was "The Birth of Tragedy" and dealt with Greek tragedies, in which the hero acts self-confident and powerful, but also has the power to comply to fate, that befalls him.
Man is submitted to powers stronger than he is himself, and to that he has to adjust his will. Yet he has to live in full passion. 
And here Nietzsche makes the contrast between the Dionysian and Appolonian way.
He celebrates the Greek who, facing up to the terrors of nature and history, did not seek refuge in "a Buddhistic negation of the will"  (Appolonian), as Schopenhauer did, 
but instead created tragedies in which life is affirmed as beautiful in spite of everything (Dionysian).
Here you see, that Nietzsche was not just a simple disciple of Schopenhauer, but clearly chooses an other conclusion than the master. 
Man as the maker of his own existence with the will to power. There he was THE individual: the Übermensch.  
No need for a god. God was dead, as Nietzsche wrote. 
Thank you…the floor is yours with your remarks and questions…

The Discussion

[13:17] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma) claps
[13:17] herman Bergson: The individual as the hero...creator of his own life due to his wil to power
[13:17] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): I guess he was right
[13:18] herman Bergson: Well..indeed I feel kind of a hero indeed Daruma :-)
[13:18] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): lol
[13:18] CB Axel: I disagree with the idea that man is constantly striving for change.
[13:18] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): no we are all the leaders of our lives.
[13:18] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): no one else.
[13:18] CB Axel: At least, not all men.
[13:18] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): we can not blame anything to others.
[13:19] herman Bergson: What do you mean by change CB?
[13:19] CB Axel: Conservatives want to keep things the same if not regress to an earlier (probably imagined) time.
[13:20] herman Bergson: I see...
[13:20] Bejiita Imako: ah
[13:20] Areyn Laurasia: Anything that is constant would stagnate...
[13:20] herman Bergson: But for Nietzsche life is a creative process...
[13:20] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): true Areyn
[13:20] herman Bergson: so things change...
[13:20] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): ja life flows
[13:20] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:21] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): thats a totally natural thing
[13:21] herman Bergson: Just suppose you would be conservative in medicines?
[13:21] Bejiita Imako: progress is a good thing in most cases
[13:21] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): and we humans are only a part of nature
[13:21] Bejiita Imako: if not all cases
[13:21] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): what cases?
[13:21] CB Axel: Oh, I agree. Progress is good, but not all people feel that way.
[13:21] Bejiita Imako: thats true
[13:21] herman Bergson: Tricky statement Bejiita....progress...
[13:21] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): true cb. thats the problem in life^^
[13:21] Bejiita Imako: the opposite of what conservatives want
[13:22] herman Bergson: are we talking about progress of change...
[13:22] Bejiita Imako: which is stagnation
[13:22] Bejiita Imako: but progress can be different i guess
[13:22] herman Bergson: you could say that change, which increases our chance to survive may be defined as progress..yes
[13:22] Bejiita Imako: both good and bad
[13:22] Bejiita Imako: ah
[13:23] herman Bergson: I think the "good/bad" you refer to Bejiita is the use of changes...
[13:23] Bejiita Imako: hmm
[13:23] herman Bergson: like inventing dynamite was  a the one hand good on theother hand bad
[13:24] Bejiita Imako: progress often sounds like a positive word and then i d say progress is a good thing if thats the case
[13:24] herman Bergson: it is just how you use the changes
[13:24] Bejiita Imako: true
[13:25] herman Bergson: What we are working on here is the development of the concept of individualism....
[13:25] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): yes, its always interesting to see how people handle with changes in their lifes
[13:25] herman Bergson: of the individual....
[13:25] herman Bergson: and we see two approaches...Schopenhauer and Nietzsche...
[13:26] herman Bergson: The pessimistic and the optimistic individual....
[13:26] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): ;-)
[13:26] herman Bergson: both  driven by will
[13:26] herman Bergson: For Schopenhauer the will to survive....
[13:26] herman Bergson: for Nietzsche the will to rule...
[13:27] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma):  to create and rule is also something to survive. in my view
[13:27] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): perhaps better, than Schopenhauer thinks
[13:27] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): ää thought
[13:27] herman Bergson: To my knowledge you don't find this debate in any other culture on earth
[13:27] CB Axel: It sounds like Nietzsche had a comfortable life. He was higher up it Maslow pyramid.
[13:28] herman Bergson: Yes Daruma....but Schopenhauer  focuses on how to bear all misery of life...
[13:28] CB Axel: Schopenhauer was still at the bottom. Just trying to survive.
[13:28] Bejiita Imako: sort of
[13:28] Bejiita Imako: a pessimist
[13:29] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): ja, and you can not survive with a negative mind in loife
[13:29] herman Bergson: Nietzsche ignited the torch....and stepped into a future
[13:29] Areyn Laurasia: passive.. *smiles*
[13:29] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): life
[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why did Schopenhauer focus on misery? what happened to him?
[13:29] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): didn’t he know that?
[13:30] herman Bergson: Beertje..answering that question would violate the privacy of Schopenhauer :-)))
[13:30] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): rofl
[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): that means you don't know?
[13:30] herman Bergson: lol
[13:30] Areyn Laurasia: brilliant answer ;)
[13:31] herman Bergson: He was an egocentric misogenic man....
[13:31] herman Bergson: or how do you spell that he disliked women a lot...
[13:31] Areyn Laurasia: misogynist?
[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): he was gay?
[13:31] herman Bergson: He was friendly to animals though...had two dogs...
[13:31] CB Axel: He was free to feel that way, I guess.
[13:31] CB Axel: Two male dogs?
[13:31] CB Axel: hehehe
[13:31] herman Bergson: There is no reference anywhere to that inclination Beertje...
[13:32] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): that does not mean anything, when u have animals;-) sadly...
[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why did he dislike woman? what did his mother do to him?
[13:32] herman Bergson: I know, Daruma, but I just say it to say at least something positive about his personality :-))
[13:32] CB Axel: I like animals better than people.
[13:32] Areyn Laurasia: perhaps she was too strict on him.. but that's entirely speculative
[13:32] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): ok. herman.
[13:33] Areyn Laurasia: but it's true that a lot of religion focus on pain and suffering
[13:33] herman Bergson: There isnt much know about Schopenhauer’s personal psychology....
[13:33] Bejiita Imako: ok
[13:33] Bejiita Imako: he seems a very special guy
[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): something must have happen in his life because he was so negative
[13:34] CB Axel: Yes, but religion focuses on the pain being alleviated after death. It does very little to help people here on Earth.
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: tru
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: e
[13:35] herman Bergson: I wouldn’t say that Beertje...
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: either you go to heaven and play harp or to hell and burn for eternity
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: hehe
[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): playing harp all day???? omg
[13:35] Areyn Laurasia: and here I thought Nietzsche was the one who was more negative.. with an nihilistic and tough views
[13:35] Bejiita Imako:
[13:35] herman Bergson: which is a warmer environment than all those cold clouds Bejiita :-)
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: haha indeed
[13:36] CB Axel: Wasn't Schopenhauer stuck with trying to fit God into his philosophy?
[13:36] CB Axel: That would make anyone more negative, IMHO.
[13:36] herman Bergson: The nihilism only concerns the existence of moral values....
[13:37] herman Bergson: Nietzsche wasn’t negative about life, I'd say
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: he seems a bit different
[13:37] herman Bergson: Bu tthe interesting point is the idea that man is the creator of his own life....
[13:37] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): dat klopt
[13:38] herman Bergson: that idea now lives in European culture....
[13:38] herman Bergson: For centuries it was god who managed our lives...
[13:38] Areyn Laurasia: who's going to take responsibility for the mess of the world we live in now.. if we are all creators of our own lives?
[13:38] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): happily the staff changed. ;-)
[13:38] herman Bergson: and in islamic countries people still life by the idea.....If Allah allows....
[13:38] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Areyn
[13:39] CB Axel: Areyn, it would be nice to be able to blame God.
[13:39] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): everyone is responsible. and all together we make what the world is now
[13:39] Bejiita Imako: very true
[13:39] herman Bergson: Well Areyn...I dare say that this world isnt a mess at all....
[13:39] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): with our consumption, thoughts and acting in life
[13:39] herman Bergson: ok...there are messy things going on...
[13:39] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): no wonder^^
[13:40] Areyn Laurasia: maybe I should move where the tulip fields are as well... XD
[13:40] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): no just keep our own garden clean^^
[13:40] herman Bergson: but the number of democratic countries...that is where people CAN create their own live increase steadily
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: ah
[13:40] CB Axel: That's true, Herman. And very encouraging.
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: YAY! (yay!)
[13:41] herman Bergson: the number of wars have decreased..tho when you see the news programs you get to  believe that the whole world is at war
[13:41] CB Axel: Today's wars have better marketing. °͜°
[13:41] herman Bergson: that's the point CB!
[13:42] CB Axel: Oh good! I made a point! Yipee!!!
[13:42] herman Bergson: And all that nonsense about the fugitives in Europe....
[13:42] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): ja media is also very bad today for our living
[13:42] Areyn Laurasia: it does affect us here
[13:42] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): and for our thinking
[13:42] herman Bergson: In the 50s we had people from Hungary...happily integrated....
[13:42] herman Bergson: then we had the fugitives from Serbia, Kosovo...
[13:43] herman Bergson: happily integrated....
[13:43] herman Bergson: now they come from Syria and what?
[13:43] Bejiita Imako: now Hungaria show them self from their worst side, treating people in need as they all were terrorists and closing all out
[13:43] herman Bergson: We are wealthy , well organized...have alot to offer
[13:43] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Don't be shocked ...
[13:44] herman Bergson: sorry...I let myself go...totally off topic now :-))
[13:44] CB Axel: Ha! You're as bad as the rest of us. LOL
[13:44] herman Bergson: Plz...your questions and remarks :-))
[13:45] herman Bergson: Thanls for the support CB :-)
[13:45] CB Axel: °͜°
[13:45] Areyn Laurasia: at least the fugitives show free will... ^^
[13:46] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): perhaps the answer is, that we all move more south. would be interesting to see what would happen then
[13:46] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): when we don’t mind war or crises
[13:46] herman Bergson: Well...we have to face the cultural differences...
[13:47] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): true
[13:47] herman Bergson: the newcomers wont be that much used to our individualism perhaps
[13:47] CB Axel: It will be quite a shock to them.
[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i think that is the problem
[13:47] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): yes, sadly they couldn’t develop themselves as much as we could 
[13:47] Areyn Laurasia: it's a big change
[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we are free to think what we want
[13:47] herman Bergson: Yes...a culture shock indeed
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: trye
[13:48] herman Bergson: But keep thinking of Huntington.....
[13:48] herman Bergson: how he pointed out that our future will be a clash among cultures...
[13:49] Areyn Laurasia: or a celebration of diversity?
[13:49] herman Bergson: That is what is going on today
[13:49] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): i am often in Amsterdam. and Amsterdam is - u know;-) a city with a lot of party, drugs and so on. and i was in a train with a lot of refugees and i thought then after arriving; well - i guess thats not the best town to start a new life with totally different rules
[13:49] CB Axel: Won't the clash be made less of a shock thanks to the internet?
[13:50] herman Bergson: That might be the case indeed..or at least I would hope you are right CB
[13:50] Areyn Laurasia: partly... but imagine having a career, and education and lose all to rely on others generosity
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: hmm
[13:50] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Thanks everyone for a really interesting one, Herman great! Sleep well everyone
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: this was great indeed
[13:50] Areyn Laurasia: sweet dreams, Chantal
[13:50] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): night chantal
[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Truste Chantal
[13:50] CB Axel: One of my ancestors did that, Areyn.
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: now off to some halloween event
[13:51] herman Bergson: Where Chantal goes we all go :-))
[13:51] CB Axel: Good night, Chantal.
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: cu tuesday I hope
[13:51] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): woot bejita
[13:51] Bejiita Imako:
[13:51] herman Bergson: So thank you all again...
[13:51] Bejiita Imako:
[13:51] herman Bergson: Class dismissed :-)
[13:51] CB Axel: Thank you for another interesting discussion, everyone.
[13:51] Areyn Laurasia: Thank you
[13:51] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): ja dank je wel herman
[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman
[13:51] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): interesting as always
[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): dankjewel:)
[[13:52] herman Bergson: Your Dutch gets better and better Daruma :-)
[13:52] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): i will be here again next thursday
[13:52] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): lol herman. i have to learn it better, perhaps i move to amsterdamn next year.
[13:52] Areyn Laurasia: Time to look for a halloween costume..
[13:52] CB Axel: I'll see everyone (except Darum, I guess) on Tuesday.
[13:52] CB Axel: Good bye.
[13:52] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma) waves
[13:53] Areyn Laurasia: good evening all
[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): same time tuesday Herman?
[13:53] herman Bergson: Have fun Areyn :-)
[13:53] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): nini all
[13:53] Areyn Laurasia: Thanks

[13:53] herman Bergson: always 1 PM SL TIME

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