Welcome to you all again. Glad to see you and thank you for your patience to quote an old adagium of Linden Lab.
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I had to deal with major events in my First Life. Selling a house, buying a new one….the amount of stress…!
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Legal and financial issues, moving. Don’t ask me….but it is all over now (to quote the Rolling Stones) :-)
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It all started here on this globe and I moved from a place where I lived for 38 years to a place 235 km away from it…
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And believe me, I am happy about it, even tho it disrupts your whole daily life for months. But we are here again.!
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I lived in a part of my country where people speak dialects I do not understand. Fortunately the people also are capable of speaking common Dutch.
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Yet, tho I lived and worked there for more than 38 years with real pleasure, it subconsciously feels as if you are a stranger in your own country. You do not fit in, because you do not speak the dialect(s)….
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Now I live where I feel at home…near Amsterdam and the other big cities like Rotterdam and The Hague.
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All boxes are unpacked now and eventually my brain is too, so it is about time to resume our normal SLife again.
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What was our subject? Ahh yes…Existentialism and Free Will. The quintessence of this project is, however,
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that we as European/Anglo-American people see ourselves as individuals with our individual rights.
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So what I try to analyse and understand is, what we use to call is individualism. According to the dictionary it means
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“Belief in the primary importance of the individual and in the virtues of self-reliance and personal independence”
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or “a social theory advocating the liberty, rights, or independent action of the individual”.
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More scientifically formulated along the lines of thought of Max Weber in his “Economy and Society” (1922) it amounts to the idea,
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that social phenomena must be explained by showing how they result from individual actions, .
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which in turn must be explained through reference to the intentional states that motivate the individual actors.
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Thus we could come to the observation, that existentialism is based on free will which as such shapes the individual and thence society, that is, our culture.
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But, as we have seen, the birth of the individual happened much earlier in history….around 1600, when we accepted that we, according to Kepler, were NOT the centre of the universe
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and where Descartes concluded, that the only thing left to him in absolute doubt was the certainty of his own individual mind.
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Thomas Hobbes (1588 - 1679) showed how individuals can live in a society. According to him, society is a population beneath a sovereign authority,
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to whom all individuals in that society cede some rights for the sake of protection. The individuals are thereby the authors of all decisions made by the sovereign.
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John Locke (1632 -1704) added the feature of personal inalienable rights to the individual. Thus John Locke can be seen as the father of liberal individual.
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We easily take all these developments for granted, but it confronts us also with the question:
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why does Western civilisation focus on the individual, why did this evolve in Europe, why not in other cultures?
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And perhaps an even trickier question….. is this a sign of evolutionary progress of the mind/brain or just some accidental event?
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I think, that this brings us right back on focus again and revives our thoughts and ideas regarding this project.
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I feel, that my brain is picking up speed again, so we are ready to continue our project on the individual.
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Thank you for your attention for now….plz the floor is yours again….^_^
The Discussion
[13:25] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): were you in a hurry?
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): thinks about the European culture before that time
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Feels indeed like individualism is something a bit isolated
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): culture play a part too
[13:26] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): I think wealth is the cradle of individuality and probably education.
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): was it just an escape from medieval life?
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): for the individual
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): who was always under a supervising king
[13:27] herman Bergson: Maybe I should remind you of this diagram....
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): just look how it is now in the world, suicide bombers who blow people up, rape and torture people and similar, or is this something that have overwritten their evolution making them into monsters
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i think its weird
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and scary
[13:27] Door Deluxe Plus: handy Bade has just entered your land !
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): how people can become like that
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hi handy
[13:28] herman Bergson: I think this diagram tells you, Bejita...
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[13:28] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): If you get taught hatred Bejiita... from baby time on... its probably very easy
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that was then
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I guess so
[13:28] herman Bergson: the individual is the most lonely person on this planet...
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but still
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not only under the king but the church too
[13:29] herman Bergson: but biologically he comes from far....
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:29] herman Bergson: from a common belief shared with others....
[13:29] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): (agrees with you though on the scary part etc) @ Bejiita
[13:29] herman Bergson: about existence and the universe...
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:30] herman Bergson: if he looses that he still has the belief in his tribe
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): actually if you go back in history and look
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ☆*¨¨*<♥*''*BEJIITA!!! *''*<♥:*¨¨*☆
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): there has always been some form of terrorist
[13:30] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): gosh I am lonely... as it seems
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that was frightening
[13:30] herman Bergson: The basic feeling in a human is the we versus the others felling....
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is true
[13:31] herman Bergson: but the we can only exist based on the belief in a religion...or a tribe...or a nation or a family...
[13:31] herman Bergson: and if those are not there anymore...those believes, I mean...you are an individual
[13:32] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Majority that is, herman, right
[13:32] herman Bergson: then you have to define your existence , understand it, understand reality...
[13:32] herman Bergson: and the only thing you have is science
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:33] herman Bergson: just common sense knowledge actually...laws of physics
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): if we believed in science instead of religion my feel is world would have been much better
[13:33] herman Bergson: you can deny and ignore any religion or belief...but never the laws of physics
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): you don’t blow each other up over science
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not sure of that bejiitaa
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and also science is fact
[13:34] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Smiles, some do ㋡
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh i think some do
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well not everyone is like the ones at CERN and NASA i gues
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:34] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): ㋡
[13:35] herman Bergson: if it were that simple...
[13:35] herman Bergson: Science is about causality.....
[13:35] herman Bergson: cause and effect....
[13:35] herman Bergson: A causes B...
[13:35] herman Bergson: so when you see A you know B will show up...
[13:36] herman Bergson: but that means..absolute determinism....
[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): is B always the opposite of A?
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I don’t believe much in different gods someone state exist but if i get some CERN data like the one i showed before or watch something from NASA then i believe it because its been analysed and they always try to state true fact and if they are not 100% sure they say so
[13:36] herman Bergson: the result of A, beertje...
[13:36] herman Bergson: A veroorzaakt B
[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ok, dankjewel
[13:37] herman Bergson: The problem is....
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): also they describe very well what they do in those papers
[13:37] herman Bergson: if we acccept that view, we would be deterministic machines ourselves....
[13:37] herman Bergson: especially the neuroscientists have to deal with this problem....
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[13:38] herman Bergson: and thence with free will
[13:38] herman Bergson: we'll deal with that later :-)
[13:39] herman Bergson: so...on the one hand I am inclined to accept that the individual is a stage in darwinian evolution...but also that science as such is not the whole story for the individual to accept life as something meaningful
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): not the entire story maybe
[13:40] herman Bergson: no....but I also reject such ideas which are called spirituality....
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) whispers: i think science is ongoing in learning itself
[13:41] herman Bergson: of course Gemma...
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but its better to believe in something you can see and check (science) vs religion (where i bet noone ever have really seen a god and it probably was just a nightmare or hallucination)
[13:41] herman Bergson: that is a good start Bejiita, if you ask me :-))
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:42] herman Bergson: Well..I think we are back in business again...:-)
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nice
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:42] herman Bergson: And yes chantal, I WAS in a hurry to get there :-))
[13:42] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): ㋡
[13:43] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): we noticed ㋡
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): has been a while yes
[13:43] herman Bergson: Almost lost practice :-)
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:43] herman Bergson: But here we are again....:-)
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): you did well
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): YAY! (yay!)
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok
[13:43] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Applauds ㋡
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hope i can make it Thursday
[13:44] herman Bergson: SO..thank you all for your attention, dear friends...:-)
[13:44] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Thank you for your wisdom ㋡
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu thursday then I guess
[13:44] herman Bergson: I'll be there on Thursday, gemma :-))
[13:44] CB Axel: I did miss these discussions. °͜°
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): now I’m gonna plow through some more ATLAS experiment data
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed, they are nice
[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol Bejiita
[13:44] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Enjoy everyone, till Thursday ㋡
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): .)
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok
[13:45] herman Bergson: But be back in time on Thursday!
[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman and a goodnight to you all
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bye for now
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu all soon ㋡
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): bye
[13:45] CB Axel: Good bye, everyone. It was nice seeing you all again. °͜°
[13:45] herman Bergson: Bye CB
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