Sunday, January 24, 2016

597: The subconscious individual invented...

The development of how man defined himself as an individual got a new impulse by Sigmund Freud (1856 – 1939).
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Hobbes saw the individual person driven by self-interest. Locke made him more friendly. Descartes shifted the focus to individual consciousness.
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Kierkegaard added the suffering and Nietzsche gave him the will to power as his driving force.
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With Darwin the individual person lost his soul and became a fully integrated part of nature. And there comes Sigmund Freud.
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He gave the individual person a psyche and most important he gave us the Unconscious. The individual mind became an object of scientific study.
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An important influence on Freud came from the field of physics. The second fifty years of the nineteenth century saw monumental advances in contemporary physics, 
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which were largely initiated by the formulation of the principle of the conservation of energy by Helmholz. .
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This principle states, in effect, that the total amount of energy in any given physical system is always constant, 
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that energy quanta can be changed but not annihilated, and that consequently when energy is moved from one part of the system, it must reappear in another part.
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Freud was the first to define the individual person as a system of energy, "psychic energy," and he assumed, that the human personality is also an energy-system, 
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and that it is the function of psychology to investigate the modifications, transmissions and conversions of psychic energy 
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within the personality which shape and determine it. This latter conception is the very cornerstone of Freud’s psychoanalytic theory.
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Again it is interesting to notice, that such a way of thinking about the person only developed in Western culture.
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The behaviour of the individual person is no longer only a subject of ethical debates, but now has become an object of scientific research.
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Psychology as a science has developed in many directions since Freud, but he was the one who gave the individual person his psyche, made a scientific object of the mind .
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These days, however, the scientific status of Freud’s theory of psycho-analysis is seriously questioned. 
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On the question of what makes a theory a genuinely scientific one, Karl Popper’s criterion of demarcation, as it is called, has now gained very general acceptance: 
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namely, that every genuine scientific theory must be testable, and therefore falsifiable, at least in principle.
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One of Freud’s inspirational sources was the causal world of physics. However, his theory offers little with respect to falsifiability.
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The difficulty with Freud’s theory is that it offers us entities, for example repressed unconscious conflicts which are said to be the unobservable causes of certain forms of behavior 
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But there are no correspondence rules for these alleged causes. They cannot be identified except by reference to the behavior which they are said to cause, 
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that is, the psycho-analyst does not demonstratively assert: "This is the unconscious cause, and that is its behavioral effect;" 
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rather he asserts: "This is the behavior, therefore its unconscious cause must exist", and this does raise serious doubts as to whether Freud’s theory offers us genuine causal explanations at all.
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Nevertheless his theory had great impact on our culture and on the way we think about the individual. 
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Thank you….if you have any questions or remarks, the floor is yours.


The Discussion

[13:33] MT Mimulus: I'm reminded of one defence of religion that if there is a creation, there must be a creator.
[13:33] herman Bergson: YEs but who concluded that there IS a creation?
[13:34] MT Mimulus: Freud seems to be saying an effect must have a cause, and then creates causes on that basis.
[13:34] MT Mimulus: That's the question :-)
[13:34] herman Bergson: Exactly...
[13:35] herman Bergson: Many don't regard the theory of psycho-analysis as scientific nowadays
[13:35] herman Bergson: however....
[13:35] herman Bergson: a lot of people are treated  according to that theory...
[13:35] herman Bergson: and here we have an issue....
[13:35] CB Axel: But do they get better?
[13:36] CB Axel: Are their lives improved?
[13:36] herman Bergson: there is a difference between the truth of a theory and the utility of a theory
[13:36] MT Mimulus: Yes
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:36] MT Mimulus: Some would get better because they have someone to talk to.
[13:36] MT Mimulus: But maybe that's an oversimplification.
[13:36] CB Axel: That's my theory, MT.
[13:37] herman Bergson: That is what I am inclined to think too MT...
[13:37] herman Bergson: I call it the vitamin A effect.... A = attention :-)
[13:37] CB Axel: If we would all just listen to each other maybe we wouldn't need psychoanalysis.
[13:37] MT Mimulus: I think that's right CB
[13:38] CB Axel: I'm sorry. What did you say? I wasn't listening. LOL
[13:38] MT Mimulus: haha
[13:38] herman Bergson: No CB...we just need attention....
[13:38] herman Bergson: although there are psychic disorders....real psychoses...
[13:38] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): and a compliment, now and than
[13:38] MT Mimulus: Yes, definitely.
[13:38] CB Axel: Yes, but are they problems with personality or chemical disorders?
[13:39] herman Bergson: We can not ignore psychic diseases....like depression for instance...
[13:39] MT Mimulus: Medication seems to be used more now.
[13:39] CB Axel: I tend to believe they are chemical disorders.
[13:39] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): I feel the same CB
[13:39] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Not all but yes
[13:39] herman Bergson: yes CB I agree....a malfunctioning of the brain...
[13:39] Bejiita Imako: true
[13:40] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): or the lack of something
[13:40] herman Bergson: Freud's ideas are obsolete....
[13:40] herman Bergson: to some extend he was right...
[13:40] herman Bergson: we carry traumas from our past into the future which reflect in our behaviour...
[13:40] herman Bergson: I guess that is true...
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: ah
[13:41] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): I am sure it is... as does dna
[13:41] herman Bergson: but present neurobiology explains the functioning of the brain much better
[13:41] MT Mimulus: There is still a great deal to learn, I think.
[13:41] CB Axel: But do the traumas from our past change our brain chemistry, or does our chemistry affect the way we react to trauma?
[13:42] herman Bergson: oh yes MT....
[13:42] herman Bergson: No CB....traumas create behavioral patterns....
[13:42] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): I wish they would have been more careful with Einstein's brain... until we would have more knowledge. Like archaeologists nowadays do... keep it for the future professionals and technology
[13:42] MT Mimulus: There are many things to consider beside genetics - diet, environmental poisons and so on
[13:42] herman Bergson: I don’t think it has anything to do with brain chemistry...
[13:44] herman Bergson: but the main point today is that Freud made us even more individual....
[13:44] MT Mimulus: We take being a unique individual for granted - its difficult to imagine thinking another way.
[13:45] herman Bergson: That is the main theme of this project MT....
[13:45] herman Bergson: This idea of individualism is a typical Western thing....
[13:46] herman Bergson: due to this individualism we developed from the Renaissance into what we are now...
[13:46] herman Bergson: and this process you do not see in other cultures on this earth....
[13:47] herman Bergson: to me that is an astonishing observation....
[13:47] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Does it have to do with evolution, you think?
[13:47] MT Mimulus: It is.
[13:47] herman Bergson: is this evolution?
[13:47] herman Bergson: are we wrong
[13:47] herman Bergson: are they wrong?
[13:47] herman Bergson: name it..
[13:47] MT Mimulus: Is there a right and wrong?
[13:47] herman Bergson: what is best for mankind?
[13:48] herman Bergson: Well we have to look at it from a Darwinian point of view...
[13:48] herman Bergson: are the individualists the fittest to survive on this globe?
[13:48] MT Mimulus: Yes, from that point of view, our way is successful.
[13:48] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): They are not
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: ok
[13:49] Bejiita Imako: interesting question indeed
[13:49] herman Bergson: That is what concerns me all the time in this project...
[13:50] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Unless they became capable of working together without looking for differences but rather work with similarities
[13:50] CB Axel: I don't think North Koreans see themselves as individuals but as parts of the North Korean machine. Are they more successful? I don't think so.
[13:50] MT Mimulus: Its a difficult question - I don't know the purpose of life to begin with, if there is one.
[13:50] MT Mimulus: Aside from survival.
[13:50] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): I don't think so either, CB :(
[13:50] herman Bergson: Indeed CB...that is my point too
[13:51] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Everything in life is about balance, I think
[13:51] herman Bergson: Well MT putting energy in survival isnt that bad :-))
[13:51] MT Mimulus: True :-)
[13:51] MT Mimulus: But just surviving isn't enough.
[13:52] herman Bergson: MT....you arent busy with only surviving every day are you...
[13:52] herman Bergson: I hope you to o have some fun :-))
[13:52] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Lots of people are
[13:52] MT Mimulus: No, in fact many have habits that are against survival.
[13:53] herman Bergson: Are you referring to my pipe MT?????
[13:53] MT Mimulus: haha, no.
[13:53] CB Axel: LOL
[13:53] MT Mimulus: I was thinking more of gun cultures, poor diets, even warfare.
[13:53] herman Bergson: That no saved you an F, MT !
[13:53] MT Mimulus: Phew
[13:54] herman Bergson grins
[13:54] herman Bergson: It is always the same story.....
[13:54] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Thanks everyone, for a great last one of 2015! Jumps to bed
[13:54] herman Bergson: Darwin showed us the reality of evolution....
[13:54] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): truste Chantal
[13:54] MT Mimulus: Yes
[13:55] herman Bergson: oh dear..sweet dreams Chantal
[13:55] MT Mimulus: Getting late in the Netherlands.
[13:55] herman Bergson: but evolution thinks in terms of 10.000th of years regarding changes....
[13:55] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes, I have to go too, it's bedtime
[13:55] CB Axel: Good night, Beertje.
[13:55] MT Mimulus: Yes, that's true.  I hope we survive another 10,000
[13:56] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): goodnight every one
[13:56] herman Bergson: our handicap is that we are too much inclined to think in some years regarding changes....
[13:56] MT Mimulus: Bye Beertje
[13:56] Bejiita Imako: bye beertje
[13:56] MT Mimulus: Our own lifetime is short.
[13:56] Bejiita Imako: indeed evolution takes an eternity almost
[13:56] herman Bergson: yes
[13:57] CB Axel: I would be most curious to see what mankind looks like in 10,000 years.
[13:57] MT Mimulus: Me too
[13:57] herman Bergson: We should meet again in ...say ...10.000 years and then see what mankind is like :-)
[13:57] Bejiita Imako: hehe
[13:57] CB Axel: Let's invent a time machine.
[13:57] MT Mimulus: Good idea, but we may be insects.
[13:57] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:57] herman Bergson: ahh you had the same thought CB
[13:57] CB Axel: Bejiita, you're the physicist. I leave that up to you. °͜°
[13:57] Bejiita Imako: Ill ask CERN if they can turn LHC into one or build something similar
[13:58] Bejiita Imako: would be cool traveling in time
[13:58] CB Axel nods
[13:58] MT Mimulus: It really would
[13:58] herman Bergson: very serious philosophical problem Bejiita...lots of paradoxes there
[13:58] MT Mimulus: Yes, but great science fiction.
[13:58] herman Bergson: Oh I love it MT :-))
[13:59] MT Mimulus: :-)
[13:59] herman Bergson: Well....
[13:59] herman Bergson: time for me to wish you all a happy new year :-)
[13:59] MT Mimulus: And to you too.
[13:59] herman Bergson: for I wont see you untillit is 2016 :-)
[13:59] CB Axel: Yes!
[13:59] herman Bergson: Class dismissed :-)
[13:59] CB Axel: I can't believe 2015 is almost over.
[14:00] MT Mimulus: Thank you for your patience - I know little about philosophy or psychology.
[14:00] Bejiita Imako: this was nice again,
[14:00] herman Bergson: Big things still to happen to me in 2015 CB :-)
[14:00] CB Axel: Have a carefree and safe move, Herman. I'll see you all in January.
[14:00] Bejiita Imako: YAY! (yay!)
[14:00] Bejiita Imako: cu thn, happy moving now herman
[14:00] herman Bergson: You don’t need to MT...
[14:00] MT Mimulus: Bye all and good night :-)
[14:00] CB Axel: MT, that's why we're here.
[14:01] CB Axel: Good bye, fellahs. °͜°
[14:01] herman Bergson: True CB:-)
[14:01] Bejiita Imako: cu in 2016 then
[14:01] Bejiita Imako: and some of you maybee sooner
[14:01] Bejiita Imako:
[14:01] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita:-)
[14:02] Bejiita Imako: good luck now Herman
[14:02] herman Bergson: I'll stay online yet....
[14:02] Bejiita Imako: ok
[14:02] herman Bergson: but I can not concentrate on preparing lectures :-)
[14:02] Bejiita Imako: aa it takes a while i guess
[14:02] herman Bergson: to much to arrange....organize...pack...
[14:02] Bejiita Imako: moving is lot of work
[14:02] Bejiita Imako: is
[14:03] herman Bergson: yes it is :-)
[14:03] Bejiita Imako: got to head out now but cu
[14:03] Bejiita Imako:
[14:03] herman Bergson: ok...be well:-)
[14:03] Bejiita Imako: you too
































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