Tuesday, February 16, 2016

603: Free Will, the problem

Let’s  begin with clarifying what we are dealing with, when we are talking about Free Will and make it subject of philosophical analysis.

We are dealing here with two concepts. On the one hand “Freedom” and on the other hand “Will”.

What do we mean by “will”? In relation to what we have said about the Individual, I would say, that “will” is related to choosing.

When I say “It is my want, that…..”, it is in a situation where I choose one of possible options or outcomes. So, you can say that “will” is not just a property, like a color of an object is, it means acting.

Thus “free will” means “freedom of action”. Freedom of action is the property of being free from constraints, 

especially from external constraints on our actions, but also from internal constraints such as physical disabilities or addictions. 

Political freedoms, such as the right to speak, to assemble, and the limits to government constraints on associations and organizations such as media and religions, are examples of external freedom.

But maybe you know the saying: “You may imprison my body, whatever you like, but you won’t be able to imprison my mind.”

As you see, there seem to be two ways of freedom. The philosopher Isaiah Berlin (1909 - 1997) described it in his inaugural lecture at Oxford University in 1957 called "Two Concepts of Liberty."

He made a distinction between negative and positive freedom. Negative liberty he defined as freedom FROM, that is, the absence of constraints on the person imposed by other people. 

Positive liberty he defined both as freedom TO, that is, the ability, not just the opportunity, to pursue and achieve willed goals and also as autonomy or self-rule, as opposed to dependence on others.

To quote him: “The 'positive' sense of the word 'liberty' derives from the wish on the part of the individual to be his own master. 

I wish my life and decisions to depend on myself, not on external forces of whatever kind. I wish to be the instrument of my own, not of other men's, acts of will.

I wish to be a subject, not an object; to be moved by reasons, by conscious purposes, which are my own, not by causes which affect me, as it were, from outside. I wish to be somebody, not nobody; 

a doer, deciding, not being decided for, self-directed and not acted upon by external nature or by other men 

as if I were a thing, or an animal, or a slave incapable of playing a human role, that is, of conceiving goals and policies of my own and realizing them. - End quote

This sounds like the heart and soul of the individual with a free will. I think, we do not  need to  concern us with this negative freedom. That is obvious.
This notion of positive freedom fits our idea of free will like a glove, but here we go…..

If this individual endowed with this positive freedom is to be true, we have to solve a few problems, especially in a time like this where some say that “we are our brain”

and in a time where people blow themselves up, because they are convinced, that Allah orders them to do so and they are not allowed to make another choice.

In philosophical terms the question is, are we really free, or free to some extend or do we just imagine we act freely?

That is the debate between Determinism and Indeterminism. So, get ready….. 

Thank you again…..the floor is yours……shoot! :-))

The Discussion

[13:17] Velvet (velvet.braham): Can we find a different example?
[13:17] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I feel my free will getting challenged by my computer, My will to be here
[13:17] herman Bergson: In what sense Velvet?
[13:17] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hope it holds up now
[13:17] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:17] Velvet (velvet.braham): Someone who gives their free will to another still has it
[13:18] Velvet (velvet.braham): Our next topic will be the philosophy of RAM!
[13:18] CB Axel: LOL
[13:18] Ciska Riverstone: hehehe
[13:18] Velvet (velvet.braham): because it's a mystery sometimes
[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:18] herman Bergson: Think so too...
[13:18] herman Bergson: Swedish RAM to be more precise :-)
[13:19] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): how can you give YOUR free will to another Velvet?
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): can have been a bad reboot before causing it
[13:19] herman Bergson: Bu twhat was your question Velvet?
[13:19] Velvet (velvet.braham): If I decide to blow myself up because someone tole me to do it
[13:19] Velvet (velvet.braham): I have still made a choice
[13:19] Velvet (velvet.braham): *told
[13:20] Ciska Riverstone: we could make another example like: companies saying they have to exploit 3d world states because the shareholder want it like that
[13:20] herman Bergson: No..because you did it as an act dictated by religion...
[13:20] Ciska Riverstone: well in my case as an act of economy ;)
[13:20] Velvet (velvet.braham): And you have chosen that religion
[13:20] CB Axel: But you can still not follow that religion.
[13:20] herman Bergson: you had not the option to say...I am sorry ..but I wont do it
[13:20] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): if you refuse they kill you....
[13:21] Velvet (velvet.braham): perhaps, but you die either way
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): problem is they are brainwashed, reprogrammed basicaly
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): by the religion
[13:21] Velvet (velvet.braham): and give over their free will
[13:21] herman Bergson: That is th magic CB....people cancel their free will due to religion
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): from birth they get brainwashed to extremists and never get exposed to reality
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats why it turns out like this
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): birth
[13:22] Velvet (velvet.braham): hmmmmm
[13:22] CB Axel: Not necessarily, Bejiita.
[13:22] CB Axel: Some become extremists later in life.
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they believe it 100 % and refuse to accept that it is really not the case
[13:22] herman Bergson: oh yes....
[13:23] Velvet (velvet.braham): refusal means that they considered another option
[13:23] CB Axel: People who are unhappy with their lives seem to be easy to radicalize.
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Islam in itself is no terror religion but some madmen have rewritten it into a system to opress women, kill innocent people and so on
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): It was not like that from start
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and now its out if control
[13:23] herman Bergson: Let's not discuss that issue Bejiita..plz :-)
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): with lunatics like IS
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): however we always have a free will
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we are not remote controled
[13:24] herman Bergson: that is the question,Bejiita...
[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what is the value of your free will if you refuse to do something and then they kill your sister?
[13:24] herman Bergson: to what extend can we say we have a free will...free in what sense
[13:24] Velvet (velvet.braham): Exactly, Bejiita, that's where I'm at
[13:25] Velvet (velvet.braham): Your choices can be severely limited, but you've not given up your will
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Its tricky and I can only see it from my perspective since I know i decide always what i want and is free to do so
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and its also part of my personality
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I decide what i want, not any other
[13:26] Velvet (velvet.braham): When would you not have free will?
[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): when you die I guess:)
[13:26] herman Bergson: Well Bejiita...you are not free at all then...you are victim of your personality :-)))
[13:27] CB Axel: lol
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe well that you can say indeed
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): changing personality is indeed difficult
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but what decide personality, interests and so. Is it genetic?
[13:28] herman Bergson: That was my next thought Bejiita....
[13:28] herman Bergson: let me go one step further....
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): can take an example I have always been technically intrested even as a kid, was that determined genetically?
[13:28] herman Bergson: suppose your personality is just the product of the chemistery of yoyr brain....
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I guess so
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): seems logical
[13:28] herman Bergson: and that chemistry is controlled by physical laws....
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:29] Velvet (velvet.braham): but your personality is a combinatio of genetics and life experience
[13:29] herman Bergson: which are fixed chains of causes and effects....
[13:29] herman Bergson: all that stuff is stored in your brian Velvet
[13:29] herman Bergson: andin genes
[13:30] Velvet (velvet.braham): hmmmm
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true. an example of that can be my interest in street dance and similat
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that i got from a web series called LXD in 2010
[13:30] CB Axel: Then we do not have free will because all of this was set in motion by the big bang and physical laws have brought us to this point.
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so thats not from birth but later influence
[13:30] herman Bergson: Very TRUE CB :-))
[13:30] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): CB... I like that thought
[13:31] Velvet (velvet.braham): So either we all have free will
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but also I’ve always liked to be active in general
[13:31] Velvet (velvet.braham): or we don't and it's an illusion
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): maybe a combination
[13:31] herman Bergson: The fact that we are here together is the result of the BIg Bang indeed :-))
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:31] herman Bergson: Let me give you some hope...:-)
[13:31] Velvet (velvet.braham): I think my brain broke
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehehe
[13:32] herman Bergson: Maybe there a kind of in between...
[13:32] Velvet (velvet.braham): please yes
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (tries to reboot Velvet like my router before) Hmm there is no switch
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol
[13:32] herman Bergson: ok..that is for th enext lectures then :-))
[13:32] Velvet (velvet.braham): lol but thanks for trying!
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Its a complicated subject indeed i realize
[13:32] Ciska Riverstone: heheh
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Seems so many things affect who you are and how you choose
[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i needed that hope, was looking out for it,, andnow I have to wait till Monday....
[13:33] Velvet (velvet.braham): or NOTHING DOES
[13:33] herman Bergson: yes Bejiita....
[13:33] herman Bergson: Till Tuesday Beertje ..lol
[13:33] Velvet (velvet.braham): There's no reason to leave this chair
[13:33] Ciska Riverstone: maybe try "the big porn experiment" for understanding biology and surrounding ;)
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Basically i have a theory, some of our free will might be decided by our hard coded personality while the rest is completley free
[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ahhh yes,, even a day longer :(
[13:33] Ciska Riverstone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSF82AwSDiU
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats one way I could descrime it
[13:34] Velvet (velvet.braham): I'm just going to stay here until Tuesday
[13:34] herman Bergson: Hold on.....
[13:34] Velvet (velvet.braham): there's no point
[13:34] herman Bergson: Ciska wants us to look at something....
[13:34] Ciska Riverstone: its fun ;)
[13:34] herman Bergson: ok...
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa ok
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:34] herman Bergson: so...everyone....watch it...
[13:34] Ciska Riverstone: it explains addiction
[13:35] herman Bergson: back in a sec or so :-)
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aa a TED
[13:35] CB Axel: You can't make me watch anything! lol
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehehe
[13:35] Ciska Riverstone: it just explains addiction and how it works but as people can get rid of it they need a free will
[13:36] Ciska Riverstone: so here you have a neurologist explaining experience ( here porn on net) with body reaction
[13:36] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Thank you Herman Going home, enjoy everyone :)
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): interesting indeed
[13:38] Velvet (velvet.braham): Wow, Ciska, I'm 2 minutes in and I see how this will break my brain even more.
[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: I hope not
[13:39] Velvet (velvet.braham): Thank you for that! I'm trying to separate making choices & being influenced
[13:39] Velvet (velvet.braham): from having no control over the "choice"
[13:39] herman Bergson: lol..this goes on for 16 minutes Ciska :-)
[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: its long yes - but he explains it very well
[13:39] herman Bergson: What doe it explain?
[13:39] herman Bergson: does
[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: addiction how it is wired in the brain
[13:40] herman Bergson: My free will?
[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: and how giving up
[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: makes the brain go back
[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: giving up is free will yes
[13:40] herman Bergson: I see...
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we are hard coded with a sex drive as well which indeed have an effect on us and that can be very hard to ignore
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): pulling us into it sort of
[13:41] Velvet (velvet.braham): Yes, but that brings my mind back to have a choice
[13:41] Velvet (velvet.braham): which may be against our "code"
[13:41] herman Bergson: wow...just imagine..philosophers mainly love books :-)
[13:41] Velvet (velvet.braham): but we can still do it
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:41] herman Bergson: addicted to page turning :-)
[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: heheeh herman
[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont):
[13:42] Velvet (velvet.braham): and when Herman gets a new book.....
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): you still can resist it but it clearly affect you
[13:42] Velvet (velvet.braham): right, but you still have free will
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but it doesnt completley overtake your free will
[13:42] Velvet (velvet.braham): high five
[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): he has a free will to trow the book out o the window...
[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: yes it restores the free will somehow but it explains that we can decide against addictions even if they are strong
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:43] Velvet (velvet.braham): still not losing free will
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Its like a magnet pulling on you but its not stronger then that you can pull free if you like
[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: you need to want this yes
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true
[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: wanting has hormones set free too
[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: so
[13:43] herman Bergson: I guess we need to dosme more thinking about free will -)
[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: chemical reaction as well
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:44] herman Bergson: otherwise we'll all drowned in porn :-)
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ehehe
[13:44] Door Deluxe Plus: Charles Barth has just entered your land !
[13:44] herman Bergson: in porn :-)
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): looool
[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: hahahah
[13:44] herman Bergson: But blame it on Ciska!
[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: hahahhahaha
[13:44] CB Axel: lol
[13:44] Velvet (velvet.braham): So I may think I will choose to come to the next lecture, but I will have no choice
[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: sorry - he just explains it so well
[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol
[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: and short
[13:44] herman Bergson: she took our free will :-)
[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: for that kind of topic
[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: hahaha
[13:45] Velvet (velvet.braham): It's a great video, Ciska
[13:45] herman Bergson: Thank you all again for this pleasant debate...
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): however much porn is not something id like to do for real, good sex feels awesome indeed but the way its often described in porn is exaggerated
[13:45] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.
[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we don't have to watch the video ....
[13:45] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ...^_^
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): this was interesting indeed and for sure a REAL brain turner
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): maybe need to reboot myself afterwards
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: hahaha
[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): omg
[13:46] CB Axel: That's what sleep is. Rebooting. °͜°
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok cu next time
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:46] herman Bergson: Just find your RESET button,Bekiita :-))
[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: take care
[13:46] herman Bergson: Must be somewhere!
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hugs all
[13:46] CB Axel: See you Tuesday.
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yep
[13:46] CB Axel: Hello, Charles. You just missed the class.
[13:46] Velvet (velvet.braham): You guys are amazing. Thank you!
[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: have a good one everyone
[13:47] herman Bergson: Thank youVelvet...so are you :-)
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): bye
[13:47] Guestboook van tipjar stand: Velvet Braham donated L$100. Thank you very much, it is much appreciated!

[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): have a goodnight all, sweet dreams:))

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