Thursday, May 3, 2018

714: The Battle between Science and Religion..........

Politically and economically, Britain was the most powerful country in the world in 1900. 
It controlled areas in North and Central America, and in South America, Argentina was heavily dependent on the British. 
British governors governed colonies in Africa, the Middle East and Southeast Asia, and Australia belonged to the dominions. 
Large parts of the rest of the world were divided among other European countries: France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Portugal, Italy and even Denmark. 
The United States already owned the last Spanish colonies in North America and in 1899 they also acquired the Panama Canal Zone.
The American appetite for influence would increase. In the world of thought , in the field of philosophy, art and the social sciences and exact sciences, however,
the tone was set by Germany at the time, or rather by the German-speaking countries, like Austria. 
In Europe Germany was the intellectual heavy weight. Germans were fanatic philosophical system builders with Hegel (1770 - 1831), of course, as the godfather.
You could say that in the early years of the 20th century the battle between rationalism and empiricism comes to a conclusion.
It is also the battle between science and religion, knowledge and belief, senses and ratio.
In those days Vienna was one of the important intellectual centers in Europe. We already have met Sigmund Freud there.
Numerous  intellectuals debated about the state of the world in the Vienna coffee-houses. One of them was the writer Hugo von Hofmannstal (1874 - 1929).
He saw one important task for the Arts: with its harmonizing ability it could counter the disruptive effects of science.
Science, take for instance Darwin's evolution theory, makes every homo sapiens an individual organism among other individual organism, nothing more.
It means that the overall cover of a universal truth is affected. Religious believes are questioned by scientific discoveries.
As a reaction on these developments we find the philosopher and psychologist German Franz Brentano (1838 - 1917). With his work he tried to find a  scientific way to proof the existence of God.
A characteristic observation is, that due to his introspectionist approach of describing consciousness from a first person point of view, on one hand, 
and his rigorous style as well as his contention that philosophy should be done with exact methods like the natural sciences, on the other,
Brentano is often considered a forerunner of both the phenomenological movement and the tradition of analytic philosophy. 
And that describes exactly the philosophical situation in those early days of the 20th century. Brentano was a man of two worlds,
on the one hand he studied Aristotle and was well acquainted with Scholasticism, on the other hand he read the British Empiricists, mainly John Stuart Mill, all of whom had a great influence on his work.
To complete the picture: Brentano is mainly known for his work in philosophy of psychology.
He made important contributions to many fields in philosophy, especially to metaphysics and ontology, ethics, logic, the history of philosophy, and philosophical theology.
Thank you for your atterntion be continued...^_^

The Discussion

[13:19] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:20] herman Bergson: Main idea is that at the beginning of the 20th century the man emancipation of science, freeing itself from religious constraints began
[13:20] herman Bergson: what you see is an abivalent attitude...
[13:20] herman Bergson: on the one hand th idea to proof the existence of god...
[13:21] herman Bergson: on the other  hand strict scientific method is demanded for
[13:21] Dien (djdien.bailey) is offline.
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): scientifically try to proove god in other words?
[13:21] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): how could they proof the existing of God?
[13:22] herman Bergson: Probably, Bejiita
[13:22] CB Axel: Perhaps he just said that he was trying to prove the existence of God. He may have been trying to show people that there is no god.
[13:22] herman Bergson: some say that the pendulum has moved to the other Science has become our religion
[13:23] SarahWhitney: Science seems to have delivered a deep blow to religion
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): science is the only true religion , even if we probably cant explain everything with it yet (dark matter for example)
[13:23] herman Bergson: It has indeed Sarah
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but it is actual observable facts in contrast to religios beliefs
[13:24] CB Axel: Calling science a religion is insulting to science, imo. °͜°
[13:24] herman Bergson: YEs Bejiita
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I believe more in such things at least
[13:24] SarahWhitney: Is everything in existence observable?
[13:24] CB Axel: We can't observe dark matter directly.
[13:24] herman Bergson: Well CB....some would say that everything we claim to know is based on beliefs...
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we probably need to figure out the proper way to observe it t least if it is now possible
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed the ony way to detect dark matter is to in an accelerator see that the sum of energy of the colliding beams dont ad upp, energy is missing = dark matter observed
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats at least how CERN explains it
[13:26] CB Axel: Yes. You can't see dark matter. You can only see its effect on other things.
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:26] SarahWhitney: And we can only observe and measure through our senses, is this perhaps too limiting?
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like all galaxies spin to fast to hold together if there is not 900% more matter there then we cant detect
[13:27] herman Bergson: At least the beliefs we base our knowledge on ar ecalculated beliefs...axioms which lead to true statements
[13:27] SarahWhitney: I'm only good for questions, lol
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its all math but no real observations
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): however math dont lie
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its the language of nature
[13:27] FrannyDJ Dean is online.
[13:27] herman Bergson: THAT, Bejiita is one of our typical beliefs....
[13:27] herman Bergson: good example
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats how they calculated the higgs boson must be what gves everything mass and the LHC prooved it to be correct
[13:27] CB Axel: Our senses are limited, but we do enhance them. Like using radio telescopes, etc.
[13:28] herman Bergson: Is the world mathematical...?
[13:28] herman Bergson: Yes CB, but some will say that we only see what we contructed into those machines
[13:28] SarahWhitney: Isn't mathematics a tool?
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well you can calculate everything , like physical laws ect
[13:28] CB Axel: True, Herman.
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and simulate it in a computer
[13:28] herman Bergson: Mathematics is magic Sarah...
[13:29] herman Bergson: Let me explain
[13:29] herman Bergson: I'll wait till Bejiita is done
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): if math would not work that way computers would be useless, for example this Unreal engine program can use math to accurately and realistic simulate any physical law so that a game seems like the real world
[13:29] herman Bergson: the magic is this....
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): even if it yet cant do it as good as in the movie Ready Player 1
[13:29] herman Bergson: hello Bejiita...plz!
[13:30] herman Bergson: could you stop for a moment?
[13:30] herman Bergson: thnx :-)
[13:30] herman Bergson: the magic for me is this....
[13:31] herman Bergson: on  the one hand we have the real word...external to our senses.....our first belief....philosophers have been fighting over this stement/assumption for centuries
[13:31] herman Bergson: on the other hand you have mathematics.....
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:31] herman Bergson: where does that come from?
[13:32] SarahWhitney: abstract thinking?
[13:32] herman Bergson: the only thing I can conclude is that it is generated and created by our brain
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): math to me is a way to describe with values how different things relate
[13:32] herman Bergson: and here comes the magic.....
[13:32] herman Bergson: for some reason.....
[13:33] herman Bergson: when we apply thig thing we callmathematics to our sensory observations , they match!
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:33] herman Bergson: We can calculate a trajectory of a rocket....pure math
[13:33] herman Bergson: that is so fascinating...
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we might have invented math but the relations are already there, we just created a language to descripe them
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and how they relate
[13:34] CB Axel: Yes, Bejiita. I agree.
[13:34] SarahWhitney: yes, I agree Bejiita
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its cool for sure
[13:34] herman Bergson: I still do not understand this relation....but it is the main tool of science
[13:34] herman Bergson: take statistics.....there you see how this tool is abused and used....
[13:35] herman Bergson: Facebook sends you personalized ads based on statistics....
[13:35] herman Bergson: on mathematical calculations
[13:35] herman Bergson: the calculation says 87% with that characteristic like blue clothings
[13:35] herman Bergson: and there you get your ad :-)
[13:36] CB Axel: A tree was a tree before we called it a tree. And E = MC ^2 was the how energy and mass are the same before Einstein came up with the equation.
[13:36] herman Bergson: I disagree here CB....
[13:37] herman Bergson: A tree is indeed a tree...what ever you call it....but one day we may discover that it is just more then just a tree organism....
[13:37] herman Bergson: and Einstein wasnt right in an absolute sense.....
[13:38] herman Bergson: Like Einstein showed that Newton wasn't right in an absolute sense
[13:39] SarahWhitney: He thought everything was relative?
[13:39] herman Bergson: That is a bit broad statement Sarah
[13:39] SarahWhitney: I know  :)
[13:40] Wisdomseeker (lissena) is offline.
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): .)
[13:40] herman Bergson: where you are obliged to explain what you mean with relative :-)
[13:40] SarahWhitney: and we'd need a definition of absolute
[13:40] herman Bergson: or is  meant BY relative?
[13:41] herman Bergson: yes..then I say means always true
[13:41] herman Bergson: and you say
[13:41] herman Bergson: what do you mean by TRUE
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): this is one example of how true math is, a computer calculated what caused the disaster in this film before we even knew they had a connection, a later experiment prooved the effect
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:41] herman Bergson: and so on.....:-)
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Kngs cross fire
[13:42] herman Bergson: But that IS the philosophical attitude....
[13:42] herman Bergson: We HAVE to keep going on asking such questions
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:43] SarahWhitney: Like can language encompass reality
[13:43] herman Bergson: oh yes....
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess
[13:43] herman Bergson: semantics
[13:43] SarahWhitney: and if we can not think it verbally can we express it in any way.
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): language is a way for us to describe things
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and communicate
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but the base blocks are already all around us
[13:44] herman Bergson: some fields the world is described in mathematical language
[13:44] SarahWhitney: And in a sense math is a language?
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): id say so
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a good example is fractals, we see them all in nature and they are based on complex math
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): of repeating patterns
[13:45] herman Bergson: Yes math is a language in itself, but not a descriptive language is
[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Bach used math for his music
[13:45] CB Axel: Are they? Or is our math based on explaining fractals?
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well there is more to math then fractals
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): another very important use of math is to define how well materials will hold, what forces act and in wich directions
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so that buildings dont collape, plane crash ect
[13:47] herman Bergson: ,
[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): is math the new religion?
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and thats all the physics of nature at play
[13:47] herman Bergson: no Beertje..not at all
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): not a religion i would say
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): maybe the bible of mother nature can be a math book
[13:47] herman Bergson: However.....some people have a strong belief in computer models, which are mathematical procedure driven things
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes and they seem to hold up very good
[13:48] herman Bergson: So may have apoint Beertje :-))
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like in that example i showed before
[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)
[13:49] CB Axel: Religion was created to explain the natural world as was math.
[13:49] herman Bergson: Well, guess we can go on forever and over like  this :-)
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as i get it the computer based on all the data it had knew there had to be a connection and it prooved to be true in the end
[13:49] CB Axel: It's just easier to prove the math than religion.
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:49] herman Bergson: Yes CB....and science begins to take over at the start of the 20th century
[13:50] CB Axel: I hope it finishes taking over soon.
[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i guess the church didn't like that at all
[13:50] herman Bergson: To put it in a simple way...not Genesis but Darwin tells us how it all began
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:50] herman Bergson: It still doent like it Beertje....
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and i agree more with darwin for sure
[13:51] herman Bergson: Science created birth control by a pill...the church didn't like it
[13:51] herman Bergson: birth
[13:51] CB Axel: The church is famous for trying to suppress science.
[13:52] herman Bergson: Indeed it is CB...has a long long history...
[13:52] herman Bergson: If it was for the church the earth was still flat :-))
[13:52] SarahWhitney: because with science the bible can only be considered metaphorically
[13:52] SarahWhitney: if at all
[13:52] herman Bergson: a way out Sarah, indeed
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:53] herman Bergson: Well, I guess we now all see what happened at the begining of the 20th century and why the world now is as it is in this respect...
[13:54] herman Bergson: Time to move on to the next lecture ^_^
[13:54] herman Bergson: But that will be next Thursday ^_^
[13:54] herman Bergson: So...thank you all for your participation...
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[13:54] CB Axel: OK! I'll see you all then.
[13:54] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.
[13:54] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Dankjewel Herman
[13:54] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....:-))
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa we do
[13:55] SarahWhitney: Good discussion
[13:55] bergfrau Apfelbaum: it was very interesting! many thanks! herman and Class
[13:55] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): welterusten, God natt :)
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): now im gonna create some cool math physics simulation i guess
[[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:55] Guestboook van tipjar stand: SarahWhitney Resident donated L$100. Thank you very much, it is much appreciated!
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well cu around
[13:55] herman Bergson: Do so Bejiita and get a Nobel prize :-)
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ill keep at it
[13:55] SarahWhitney: :)
[13:55] SarahWhitney: Bye for now
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as said i think its really interesting stuff
[13:55] herman Bergson: Bye Sarah
[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): bye for now
[13:56] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): goodnight all

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